[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion

[Nihilist]

Christ people. This is not a blockbuster movie. This is not a History Channel recreation of historic battles.

This is first and foremost a television drama. As long as it's kicking ass as far as that goes, it's doing it's job. And it is. Fantastically.

Anyone "missing" the battles go check the source material. Then, if that doesn't work, donate millions of dollars to HBO.

I'm sorry I thought this was an epic fantasy series. I thought we might actually see part of a battle that helps decide many of the events to come. But I guess battles don't matter in dramas. I mean it is not like battles actually decide anything in this series...

/MASSIVE amounts of sarcasm

[Mr Bean]

If you watch his live watching tv blog, as the credits roll he gets up and walks off camera and you can hear him banging stuff in the background.

I heard he was doing that but never saw a link so no chance to see that.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Christ people. This is not a blockbuster movie. This is not a History Channel recreation of historic battles.

This is first and foremost a television drama. As long as it's kicking ass as far as that goes, it's doing it's job. And it is. Fantastically.

Anyone "missing" the battles go check the source material. Then, if that doesn't work, donate millions of dollars to HBO.

:cheers:

I love you, LoB.

[banditry]

I was talking about the perspective of the northerners (not Tywin); I believe they were under the impression that it was feasible to defeat Tywin's army, but they clearly would not have thought that if they had only 2,000 men. Also, I just remembered the specifics and Robb took all his cavalry across the Twins to the Whispering Wood and gave Roose Bolton his infantry for the Battle of the Green Fork. This means that Roose Bolton actually would have had more soldiers total (but no cavalry) for the Battle of the Green Fork, meaning he did have a shot at defeating the Lannister army. So yeah, I'm really questioning the decision for them to give the Green Fork army only 2,000 men. I think this is a severe inconsistency with Robb's character (both in the show and in the book).

I believe you are correct, and it also has ramifications for later in the series, if the show goes that far. How many men were left if 2000 men, essentially the entire host on that side of the river, are killed? How will later events be able to play out, w/ Roose Bolton at Harrenhal and the setup at Duskendale, etc.

[banditry]

Christ people. This is not a blockbuster movie. This is not a History Channel recreation of historic battles.

This is first and foremost a television drama. As long as it's kicking ass as far as that goes, it's doing it's job. And it is. Fantastically.

Anyone "missing" the battles go check the source material. Then, if that doesn't work, donate millions of dollars to HBO.

As others have stated, Whispering Wood could have been done very simply and cheaply, with some isolated battle shots in the woods, w/ some shots of Grey Wind at Robb's side. Could have been very small scale and still effective.

I'm not complaining overall, i think they are doing a tremendous job. But certain aspects involving the scale, and the lack of wolves, is the biggest disappointment for me.

The performances are so unbelievably good, though. Everybody is terrific.

[iheartseverus]

At least Joffrey does get a horrible death, and right at the moment of his triumph.

Yes. Bring it ON! :devil:

I have to say, its a...weird thing to me that again and again after these episodes, the 'where's the battles' people chime in, all disappointed and upset that we didn't see x-guy whacking y-guy who ultimately falls to z-guy. Maybe its a boy/girl thing? Just weird to me, shrug...

[ragin_rebel]

ok ive read enough now. there is no excuse what so ever to completely leave out the battles. the series is not souly based on polotics war is a huge factor as well. the drinking game was a waste of time that could have been spent on other things. shae threatens to kill tyrion, stupid. they had her acting like some kind of super bad ass and it was stupid. tyrion getting knocked out and missing the battle was stupid. i understand the differences between books and movies especially in the case of books such as these that are saturated with material, but hbo has added shit that could have been left out to keep things that really matter and everyone on this forum knows that. all in all i will buy the dvds when released because all in all the show is pretty goood but the potential hasnt been reached.

[Eve]

Christ people. This is not a blockbuster movie. This is not a History Channel recreation of historic battles.

This is first and foremost a television drama. As long as it's kicking ass as far as that goes, it's doing it's job. And it is. Fantastically.

Anyone "missing" the battles go check the source material. Then, if that doesn't work, donate millions of dollars to HBO.

I would much rather the money be spent elsewhere in the production than on a complicated battle scene that people would just bitch about not being realistic enough for them.

[Lord O' Bones]

I'm sorry I thought this was an epic fantasy series. I thought we might actually see part of a battle that helps decide many of the events to come. But I guess battles don't matter in dramas. I mean it is not like battles actually decide anything in this series...

/MASSIVE amounts of sarcasm

Thank you for apologizing. Even if it is a television drama and not an epic fantasy series first and foremost, the sentiment is appreciated. And more importantly thank you for ending your MASSIVE onslaught of sarcasm. I was worried that I may have to go on thoroughly enjoying an awesome series instead of whining about how disappointed I was with trivialities.

[Mad Sweeney]

I'm sorry I thought this was an epic fantasy series. I thought we might actually see part of a battle that helps decide many of the events to come. But I guess battles don't matter in dramas. I mean it is not like battles actually decide anything in this series...

/MASSIVE amounts of sarcasm

/and utterly misplaced. No way to do big battle scenes in this format unless they blow a few episodes' worth of extra budget on one scene. I imagine they'll do a good job of it on the Blackwater. Think back to BSG and how much they blew on the escape from New Caprica. There was hardly any effects for 3 or 4 episodes after that and it made the show suffer for it.

[KyleLitke]

So anyway, my thoughts on the episode:

1. Disappointed they left out both the battles, although I understand why. Not only for monetary purposes, but also for time purposes (no reason to spend that much money if you're going to show the battle for a minute or two...I very much expect the Battle of Kings Landing to actually be shown, for example, since it's a much longer and more important battle. Heck, we don't even "see" the Battle at Riverrun in the books.

2. Shae didn't quite work for me here. A little too cold and distant I guess. Didn't really fit with Shae from the books for me, but I'm perfectly willing to wait and see where they go from there with the character.

3. Liked the scene at the Twins. Walder was great.

4. Wish they would have at least mentioned the name of Roose Bolton. They didn't have to show him if they haven't even cast him yet (not sure if they did or not) but he becomes such an important part of the books, it would have been nice for Robb or Tywin to mention offhand that Bolton was leading the group that went against Tywin, just so next season when he shows up again (assuming he does...he'd have to by the third season), people can say "Oh yeah, he was leading that other group!".

5. That last scene was really, really well done. I'm totally fine with the change of Ned noticing Arya...while I don't think it would have worked in the book, it absolutely worked tremendously in the show. It made the whole scene more heartfelt, explained why Yoren went to Arya (necessary to stop her from charging up to try to stop it), and made sure that TV viewers weren't left like book readers were, with a knife flying at Arya and then no more Arya chapters. Even knowing it was coming it was tough to watch, but still really well done. I have to watch it again tomorrow too, I have a non reader friend who watches the show with me on Mondays. Looking forward to THAT reaction.

[Jay Clark]

I haven't read the books and all I can say is my chest hurts. I feel gutted. I kept hoping Ned would recant and renounce Joffrey but to see him beheaded?! Omg.... I turned to my wife and said they just killed the star of the show! It's awesome and unbelievable at the same time. I am glad I didn't know what was coming. I literally can't breathe. Just astounding.."

[Aeron Greyjoy]

Christ people. This is not a blockbuster movie. This is not a History Channel recreation of historic battles.

This is first and foremost a television drama. As long as it's kicking ass as far as that goes, it's doing it's job. And it is. Fantastically.

Anyone "missing" the battles go check the source material. Then, if that doesn't work, donate millions of dollars to HBO.

I agree with most of what you say particularly the battles that never existed in the book POVs. But tonight I felt the scenes collectively made the show feel small. Not enough extras or space filled or something. And Tyrion knocked out to avoid a battle scene was a stretch. Will he also pass out during the Battle of Blackwater next year? And if they cant do a decent job with direwolves, I have concerns how the hell they will deal with dragons razing cities. Loving that we can debate at all!

[Spanky]

Subject: Shae. =D

I love her.

I love the change.

The change is good.

Shae in the show is better than Shae in the books.

Shae in the books was a common whore. There was no reason for Tyrion to be more impressed by her than anyone else. She was hot, super nice, and fucked him bunches. Just like every other whore in Westeros. But, for some reason, Tyrion took a liking to her, and fell in love with her to the point of craziness.

Shae in the show is something different. She's foreign, yes, but she's also a challenge. She doesn't just smile and call Tyrion her giant of Lannister or whatever. She doesn't seem as mindless to me. She engages him, intellectually. To me, it seems much more realistic for a woman like this to impress a poon-hound like Tyrion. She's different and interesting and yes, she has small boobies, but I'll forgive her for that.

I liked that drinking game scene. :3

It made me happy. And it wasn't in the books. :3

Take that, purists. =D

[KyleLitke]

I was talking about the perspective of the northerners (not Tywin); I believe they were under the impression that it was feasible to defeat Tywin's army, but they clearly would not have thought that if they had only 2,000 men. Also, I just remembered the specifics and Robb took all his cavalry across the Twins to the Whispering Wood and gave Roose Bolton his infantry for the Battle of the Green Fork. This means that Roose Bolton actually would have had more soldiers total (but no cavalry) for the Battle of the Green Fork, meaning he did have a shot at defeating the Lannister army. So yeah, I'm really questioning the decision for them to give the Green Fork army only 2,000 men. I think this is a severe inconsistency with Robb's character (both in the show and in the book).

You may be correct, but I'm remembering it differently...I swear I remember it being said Robb took the greater part of his men to Riverrun. I'll look it up when I get a second though.

[Été]

These early battles build the momentum for Robb's campaign and help get the War of the 5 Kings going, but the take-home message from them is Starks 2, Lannisters 0, with Jaime as a captive - mission accomplished.

However, I will be extremely disappointed if we don't get a LOT of detail in the Battle of the Blackwater, with POVs on the ships and in the burning harbour, and the sky aflame outside the Red Keep: Sandor's desertion and Tyrion's sortie, Davos and the boom chain and Podrick's moment of glory. The whole nine yards. It's arguably the centrepiece of ACoK, the way Ned's execution is in AGoT. If the budget expands significantly next season, I hope the excess will be spent there.

I felt a bit cheated skipping out on the battle scenes tonight but it's entirely forgivable and justifiable.

[Blue Steel]

Subject: Shae. =D

I love her.

I love the change.

The change is good.

Shae in the show is better than Shae in the books.

Shae in the books was a common whore. There was no reason for Tyrion to be more impressed by her than anyone else. She was hot, super nice, and fucked him bunches. Just like every other whore in Westeros. But, for some reason, Tyrion took a liking to her, and fell in love with her to the point of craziness.

Shae in the show is something different. She's foreign, yes, but she's also a challenge. She doesn't just smile and call Tyrion her giant of Lannister or whatever. She doesn't seem as mindless to me. She engages him, intellectually. To me, it seems much more realistic for a woman like this to impress a poon-hound like Tyrion. She's different and interesting and yes, she has small boobies, but I'll forgive her for that.

I liked that drinking game scene. :3

It made me happy. And it wasn't in the books. :3

Take that, purists. =D

I agree. Shae in the show was an improvement over a character in the books that I already loved. So that's saying a lot.

[Lannes]

Having so much fun watching newbies blow up Twitter and the different sites after this episode. :thumbsup:

[Trebla]

I was more bothered by Robb taking most of the men to the Whispering Wind than not seeing any battles at all. In the book, Tywin took the bait because his scouts and outriders saw a large host which had all the foot and some horse.

My guess is that they wanted to combine the Whispering Wood and Riverrun into one battle and this way it's Robb's 18k surprising Jaime's 30k. They don't have to explain the logistics of besieging Riverrun and how that played into Robb's crushing Jaime's split forces.

But does that make Tywin's forces look incompetent that they were fooled into thinking they were battling a host of 20k that was really only 2k?

[Kaitscralt]

GRRM is writing the Battle of the Blackwater, so I am sure he will do it as best as he can...