[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion

[Mack Kilimaro]

Can't a person be bummed that the battles weren't shown while acknowledging the reality of the budget for the first season of a small-screen show where its reception was unknown?

I hope that the show's success will allow for more actual fighting to be shown in the Battle of the Blackwater. That would be an extremely disappointing treatment for the most significant on-page battle in the series to date.

Lots to digest here. Loved the entire final scene with Ned. Wasn't any easier to take even knowing exactly what was about to happen.

[Mad Sweeney]

Not sure about the changes to Shae's character, though I am a massive fan of the actress now. Unreal how fantastic she looks onscreen. One thing that I can think of is perhaps b not having her as blatantly whore-like and sucking up to him immediately (up, I said, up!) and becomes infatuated with Tyrion as they go along instead of right away for the money will make the betrayal harder to see coming and much more painful. Plus as others said, she's a challenge for Tyrion even though he's paying her, which is a good reason to have him fall so hard for her.

[KyleLitke]

I was more bothered by Robb taking most of the men to the Whispering Wind than not seeing any battles at all. In the book, Tywin took the bait because his scouts and outriders saw a large host which had all the foot and some horse.

My guess is that they wanted to combine the Whispering Wood and Riverrun into one battle and this way it's Robb's 18k surprising Jaime's 30k. They don't have to explain the logistics of besieging Riverrun and how that played into Robb's crushing Jaime's split forces.

But does that make Tywin's forces look incompetent that they were fooled into thinking they were battling a host of 20k that was really only 2k?

Well, it was done differently in the show, though. In the books Robb comes up on him and he's tricked by what seems to be a larger force. In the show, Robb releases a scout who saw the 20,000 and presumably that scout tells Tywin. I assume the scout did not say he was captured and released (he'd come off as a shitty scout if he did...and had he actually told Tywin that, Tywin's not stupid enough to think Robb would do that for no reason, I wouldn't think). So Tywin committed to battle before finding out the size of the army facing them.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Unbelivably perfect.

Now I will eat a bag of chocolate and have a good cry. (and watch it a second time)

[Eddard house stark]

the red wedding scene and what they do to robb and grey wind is far worse than neds fate. i will not watch that scene

[Trebla]

Robb's forces were larger than 18k since he was reinforced with at least 4000 from the Twins since Theon said that their host was 5 times larger than the Frey's and according to Cately, the Freys were going with them save 500 men left to defend the Twins.

So it was 22,000 at the Whispering Wood and 2,000 at the Green Fork.

Tywin's forces were incompetent in the books though so that's not chaging much. Tywin thought Robb was on his side of the Trident and that would have cost him his entire strategic goals if it wasn't for plot armor (ie: Melisandre/Stannis killing Renly).

Good point on the Freys. Forgot about their addition.

But as I said, they completely flipped the forces. In the book, Robb and the Blackfish were brilliant in catching Jaime and then the 3-sided besiegers unaware. They did so with a much smaller force. Tywin is only fooled because Roose Bolton had a large host.

Actually, people complaining that they didn't show the battle of the Green Fork shouldn't be too upset. It wasn't a battle, it was a friggin' slaughter. If Tyrion hadn't gotten knocked out, he could have easily led the van. :P

[ViennaGirl]

I'm a Danerys hater when the books are concerned, but I'm sort of loving HBO Danerys - I hope this changes my mind as I reread and reread the books. I love her with Drogo, and how desperate and brave she is - I was rooting for a rewrite so she could run away to safety with Jorah (well, not really, but you know). I hope the dragons aren't too weird.

LOVED Jorah in this episode also. Found myself hoping that he'd get Longclaw back, but that's ridiculous.

Always love Kit/Jon. The scene with Aemon was fab.

Did not love Shae for same reasons as everyone else - "foreign?" Cher? Ick. Bronn is pretty hilarious. But when did he go north of the wall?

Did not love Tyrion missing the battle. I thought it was important for him to have fought.

Can't talk about Ned, couldn't watch.

[TamTam Rapley]

While that's true and even shows like Legend of the seeker had larger skirmishes than Got had, I almost always get annoyed by huge cgi battles because they are almost always done poorly. Even the LOTR battles are overrated and unrealistic. No battles happen like that.

The best large scale battles in movies were done a long time ago with movies such as Alexander Nevsky and Spartacus. It's too expensive nowadays. The battles in the modern era kind of suck. Excalibur in the 80s had better battles than anything in LOTR because CGI ruins battles.

You could give HBO 100 million dollars for the Battle of the Blackwater and it won't look half as good as the sea battle in Ben Hur.

It's probably better not to show them than to half ass them.

This is how you portray a battle and this easily puts Lotr battles to shame. Too bad it was made like 90 years ago.

I disagree, Troy had great battle scenes and used a bit of CGI, same with Gladiator, but yeah those are blockbusters and a step above Game of Thrones.

[Steel_Wind]

heroic.

Are they completely eliminating the character of Podrick Payne, or will they add him later? I suppose he is a rather unnecessary but he's so entertaining!

Pod is one of the ONLY characters GRRM has written in the entire series who is a true knight. You leave Pod alone!

[Aeron Greyjoy]

I complained a lot about the number of extras in earlier episodes and thought tonight there was a good amount of people involved, especially wide shots of the Dothraki camp on the plateau.

That is interesting because is where I thought the Khalasar looked small with a few riders in the background then pan to closeup of riders in the foreground to make up for the missed space.

I agree with those giving praise to Emilia Clarke (sp?) she nailed it tonight.

Let the discussions continue about Bronn's origins and venture beyond The Wall.

[damian]

the last scene was powerful and well done. really think it was an improvement on the book scene. it gave ned a true sending off.

[damian]

had my daughter and my wife on either side of me crying :(

[Blue Steel]

I disagree, Troy had great battle scenes and used a bit of CGI, same with Gladiator, but yeah those are blockbusters and a step above Game of Thrones.

I completely disagree. Troy's battles were terrible. They took a bunch of CGI's characters, lined them all up in one line and made them charge each other with 100s dying every second. War in the ancient world did not happen like that at all. Flanking? What's that? Let's just have one big army charge another big army head on and have them slaughter each other by the 1000. It was as if every arrow killed someone. If the real battle for Troy occured like that, it would have been over in 1 day not 10 years.

Again, watch that youtube clip of the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. That's how you properly portray a battle. But the capability to make a movie like that no longer exists so it might be better not to even waste money trying on a tv show. Even if HBO gave GoT 100 million dollars for the Battle of Blackwater, it would look like crap compared to the naval engagement in Ben Hur.

Gladiator had decent battles compared to Troy but even then they were garbage compared to Spartacus.

[Tyrion Lannister]

1. A Game of Rome: Maybe the greatest criticism of the HBO series “Rome” was the culmination of the Caesar v. Pompeii story-line was NOT a great battle- which was historically accurate. It was not the clash of arms with the ultimate political disagreement reaching its zenith: with men in pitched battle. Instead, you had a very strange “montage” of various soldiers and banners falling, swords being drawn, etc. And then, Caesar says, “Notify Rome; tell them Caesar has won.” Which is kinda cool but not what we signed up for. Where was the ACTUAL battle? Where was the ACTUAL climax?

GoT commits the same sin: I don’t even get a shitty montage. I get PATHETIC comic relief of Tyrion getting KO’d by an errant warhammer and then post-battle foolishness. Hey look, these two people are beating a third man with clubs! Let's make a shitty joke! It was equal parts disappointing and silly.

Yes, I get it, production costs blah, blah, blah. Seriously, than cut something else. Battle is a HUGE part of this series: that men die and die without dignity or company. That this world is horrible and unfair and dangerous. Instead? We get a lame joke and a post look at a battle that looks surprisingly empty.

I agree that battle is a huge part of this series. But the two particular battles from this episode were not important enough in the grand scheme of things for me to feel like the series will suffer due to the way they were handled. I was sort of hoping that we'd see a bit of Jaime being a badass before his capture, but I think the scene did what it needed to. (Plus, it would be hard for me to complain too hard about them leaving out a battle that we didn't see in the book, either.) And Tyrion's battle is even less important to the story, so I'm not upset about not seeing it either.

If they similarly gloss over the Battle of the Blackwater, I'll be right here complaining with the rest. But right now, I'm good.

[Mad Sweeney]

That is interesting because is where I thought the Khalasar looked small with a few riders in the background then pan to closeup of riders in the foreground to make up for the missed space.

I agree with those giving praise to Emilia Clarke (sp?) she nailed it tonight.

Let the discussions continue about Bronn's origins and venture beyond The Wall.

Hopefully discussions are all there are. I think GRRM mopped up Bronn very well in the books, showed his true character and left enough of a mystery to him that it didn't feel like exposition was given just to round out a fan favorite who apparently has run his course in the story. What he did beyond the wall... who cares. Some things are better left mysteries (until he licenses out his world and a million prequels come out like Dragonlance).

As for the camp, I was more specifically thinking of wide establishing shots of the entire camp, not when they went into the action therein. However, I didn't really notice, or have gotten used to, a lack of people in the Dothraki hordes. I do see the point of a fairly unlittered battlefield, and I didn't like the whacking of fallen soldiers*, but with the re-write, this battle becomes more of a skirmish. I'm willing to let that pass.

* not because of the jokes or anything other than it was pretty bad extra work trying to look like they were hitting him hard while not actually hitting him hard.

[Asarlai]

I agree that battle is a huge part of this series. But the two particular battles from this episode were not important enough in the grand scheme of things for me to feel like the series will suffer due to the way they were handled. I was sort of hoping that we'd see a bit of Jaime being a badass before his capture, but I think the scene did what it needed to. (Plus, it would be hard for me to complain too hard about them leaving out a battle that we didn't see in the book, either.) And Tyrion's battle is even less important to the story, so I'm not upset about not seeing it either.

If they similarly gloss over the Battle of the Blackwater, I'll be right here complaining with the rest. But right now, I'm good.

Well the reason it was important was the impact of this episode on viewers. Kind of trudging along... then Drogo's dying... then trudging along... then Ned dies! Just makes the show seem undesirable. I know it gets more interesting/enjoyable, but that's because I'm a reader.

[melicorn]

Subject: Shae. =D

I love her.

I love the change.

The change is good.

Shae in the show is better than Shae in the books.

Shae in the books was a common whore. There was no reason for Tyrion to be more impressed by her than anyone else. She was hot, super nice, and fucked him bunches. Just like every other whore in Westeros. But, for some reason, Tyrion took a liking to her, and fell in love with her to the point of craziness.

Shae in the show is something different. She's foreign, yes, but she's also a challenge. She doesn't just smile and call Tyrion her giant of Lannister or whatever. She doesn't seem as mindless to me. She engages him, intellectually. To me, it seems much more realistic for a woman like this to impress a poon-hound like Tyrion. She's different and interesting and yes, she has small boobies, but I'll forgive her for that.

I liked that drinking game scene. :3

It made me happy. And it wasn't in the books. :3

Take that, purists. =D

I've thought about it some more, and I think I've realized why I am uncomfortable with a different Shae (and maybe why others are as well):

Everything and everyone in Tyrion's life is complicated and full of schemes and requires a lot of planning to deal with. I think he loved Shae because she was simple. I don't think she was dumb or anything, she was just straightforward. I don't think Tyrion loves her because he is impressed by her, I think he loves her because he can relax around her. Now in the show if she is just another mystery for him to unravel it seems like it would be exhausting for him.

[Tears of Lys]

Ned's final scene was EXACTLY what I had envisioned when I was reading the book. The surrounding buildings, the crowd, Arya on the statue - Perfection. Even knowing what was going to happen, you couldn't help but wish "history" would change. Cutting away to Arya and the birds taking flight was a great call too.

Shae I can take or leave at this point. I can only guess that HBO has plans for her maybe absorbing some other character's action which would give reason for her change in personality.

I REALLY hope they keep Roose Bolton in. He's probably my favorite creepy character of all time. :love:

Yeah, Jorah is rather nice-looking. I didn't quite picture him that way from the books, but I'm not complaining. :leer:

As for the battles, they can leave the clashing swords off-screen as long as they spend some bucks on the dragons, IMO.

Only ONE MORE EPISODE LEFT! Damn.

[Asarlai]

I've thought about it some more, and I think I've realized why I am uncomfortable with a different Shae (and maybe why others are as well):

Everything and everyone in Tyrion's life is complicated and full of schemes and requires a lot of planning to deal with. I think he loved Shae because she was simple. I don't think she was dumb or anything, she was just straightforward. I don't think Tyrion loves her because he is impressed by her, I think he loves her because he can relax around her. Now in the show if she is just another mystery for him to unravel it seems like it would be exhausting for him.

That sounds right; I also didn't think Shae was cast very well.

[Grack21]

I completely disagree. Troy's battles were terrible. They took a bunch of CGI's characters, lined them all up in one line and made them charge each other with 100s dying every second. War in the ancient world did not happen like that at all. Flanking? What's that? Let's just have one big army charge another big army head on and have them slaughter each other by the 1000. It was as if every arrow killed someone. If the real battle for Troy occured like that, it would have been over in 1 day not 10 years.

Again, watch that youtube clip of the Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. That's how you properly portray a battle. But the capability to make a movie like that no longer exists so it might be better not to even waste money trying on a tv show. Even if HBO gave GoT 100 million dollars for the Battle of Blackwater, it would look like crap compared to the naval engagement in Ben Hur.

Gladiator had decent battles compared to Troy but even then they were garbage compared to Spartacus.

Preach it brother. Thinking of Troy makes my physically ill. Based on the Illad my ass.

Gladiator's battle were all right, mostly because cgi hasn't taken such a huge effect yet.

I'd rather have them not do the battles then end up with some cgi 300 style shit.