Bahimiron Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Keeping in mind that Jaime is known for his swordsmanship, is head of one of the realm's most famous martial orders and is son of one of the most pragmatically calculating men in the Seven Kingdoms, you may want to reconsider what 'your brother can be very persuasive' might mean. It is unlikely that Jaime held a debate and managed to score more points on his rebuttals than Varys and more likely that Jaime said 'help my brother or I will cut your skin off your belly and pull it up over your head'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Woolshirt Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 why did varys agree to kill Dany, and send birds to do it, if hes scheming to bring her back?sorry, didn't really get an answer - anyone? :)My take is that he didn't actually send out the birds. Here's the most conspiratorial version of the theory:Varys and Illyrio publicized the reward just to one caravan, whose caravan master, Byan Votyris, is an accomplice of theirs. They also hired a wine merchant traveling in the caravan to poison Dany. When the caravan reaches Vaes Dothrak, Jorah goes to talk to the caravan master, who he knows is an agent of Varys (recall Jorah wouldn't let Dany come along). Byan then gives Jorah the news of the reward, and tells him that the wine merchant will try to poison Dany. Jorah stakes out the wine merchant and stops the assassination. Dany was never really in danger.Recall that Jorah, after being missing most of the morning, suddenly appears just in time to stop Dany from being poisoned. Also, as soon as the wineseller was dead, "A dozen caravan guards had come running. With them was the master himself, Merchant Captain Byan Votyris, a diminutive Novoshi with skin like old leather and a bristling blue mustachio that swept up to his ears. He seemed to know what had happened without a word being spoken."It was all a set-up. And it accomplished its intended purpose: to get Drogo to promise to attack Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetAnotherWaterdancer Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Question: What exactly is up with Shireen Baratheon? Other than being a heartbreakingly sad little disfigured girl, does she have any particular significance to the story? I can vaguely remember her running around Storm's End but I can't quite understand if she had any plot function as such, other than GRRM going "here's something to be sad about". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Question: What exactly is up with Shireen Baratheon? Other than being a heartbreakingly sad little disfigured girl, does she have any particular significance to the story? I can vaguely remember her running around Storm's End but I can't quite understand if she had any plot function as such, other than GRRM going "here's something to be sad about".Not much. She's one more reason for the nobles to dislike Stannis as a King--his heir is female, which could lead to a succession crisis or another house seizing the throne through marriage. Also she has those dreams about dragons, which might be prophetic, and at least give a very ominous feel to Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 There is not much about Shireen, yet. But she has a Targaryen blood. I would not be surprised of her dreams turn out to be prophetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Question: What exactly is up with Shireen Baratheon? Other than being a heartbreakingly sad little disfigured girl, does she have any particular significance to the story? I can vaguely remember her running around Storm's End but I can't quite understand if she had any plot function as such, other than GRRM going "here's something to be sad about".So far, she hasn't served any plot function of note. But at a certain point, I suspect that Melisandre is going to sacrifice her to raise a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 So far, she hasn't served any plot function of note. But at a certain point, I suspect that Melisandre is going to sacrifice her to raise a dragon.A very likely outcome, but I sure hope she is not successful. It works much better for the story, I think, if Shireen dies in an unsuccessful attempt to raise a dragon. Might make for a few tense moments between Stannis and Melisandre.Although, I'd much prefer little Shireen living to a ripe old age and becoming the Lady of Storm's End. So unMartin like, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YetAnotherWaterdancer Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm amazed that GRRM managed to make me care about this relatively minor character. I too would prefer Shireen ending up safe and happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcorpyo001 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 There is not much about Shireen, yet. But she has a Targaryen blood. I would not be surprised of her dreams turn out to be prophetic.I don't think the prophetic dreams have anything to do with her Targ lineage, but more with the fact she had a near death experience(the grey scale). Jojen had his green dreams only after a near death experience. Same goes for Bran.And yes, her green dream about dragons attacking her could be true. Dany could come to fight Stannis at the Wall or she loses control over them and they destroy the Wall under the control of another entity/guy with horn/etc. Or Mel actually manages to raise a dragon, which she then can't control, or she can, but she does want to destroy the Wall either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitscralt Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I'm amazed that GRRM managed to make me care about this relatively minor character. I too would prefer Shireen ending up safe and happy.It really isn't amazing... we route for youngsters almost by instinct, much like we route for innocent animals. A kid needs to be portrayed as seriously evil (Joffrey) to turn a reader/watcher against them.That said, I've always had an extra soft spot for Shireen, because she is so carefree and happy despite her condition. Plus, Davos seems to love her, and I trust Davos' judgment of nearly everyone. I like Stannis too much as well to not adore his daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahimiron Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Shireen + Tommen = Peace in the Seven Kingdoms! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom of Valyria Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Keeping in mind that Jaime is known for his swordsmanship, is head of one of the realm's most famous martial orders and is son of one of the most pragmatically calculating men in the Seven Kingdoms, you may want to reconsider what 'your brother can be very persuasive' might mean. It is unlikely that Jaime held a debate and managed to score more points on his rebuttals than Varys and more likely that Jaime said 'help my brother or I will cut your skin off your belly and pull it up over your head'.Well, with his hand gone, I don't think Jaime was really in any position to hurt Varys personally. Your other points are good, though. I just don't like thinking of Varys as being that easily threatened and manipulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 I don't think the prophetic dreams have anything to do with her Targ lineage, but more with the fact she had a near death experience(the grey scale). Jojen had his green dreams only after a near death experience. Same goes for Bran.And yes, her green dream about dragons attacking her could be true. Dany could come to fight Stannis at the Wall or she loses control over them and they destroy the Wall under the control of another entity/guy with horn/etc. Or Mel actually manages to raise a dragon, which she then can't control, or she can, but she does want to destroy the Wall either way.Mmm, maybe, but the Targs are known to have prophetic dreams - Egg (Aegon V)' eldest brother had, Rhaegar, or Daemon II Blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalhaven Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Okay, I seem to miss this on every re-read.What exactly happened at the "Tragedy at Summerhall"? Is it spelled out or just inferred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Okay, I seem to miss this on every re-read.What exactly happened at the "Tragedy at Summerhall"? Is it spelled out or just inferred?A bunch of Targaryens went to Summerhall (with other people, like that old weirwood woman's daughter) and tried bringing back the dragons from eggs, which involved copious amounts of fire. Summerhall burned down killing a bunch of people, including the King.Summerhall was destroyed by fire in the year 259 AL, on the same night Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was born to Prince Aerys and his sister-wife Rhaella. The fire was a serious blow to House Targaryen, as King Aegon V Targaryen, his eldest son and heir Prince Duncan and his good friend Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, were also all killed. The fire is sometimes blamed on one of the periodic attempts by the Targaryens to hatch ancient dragon eggs. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tragedy_of_Summerhall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalhaven Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 A bunch of Targaryens went to Summerhall (with other people, like that old weirwood woman's daughter) and tried bringing back the dragons from eggs, which involved copious amounts of fire. Summerhall burned down killing a bunch of people, including the King.http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tragedy_of_SummerhallTy sir. And shame on me for not using the search function first :dunce: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Ty sir. And shame on me for not using the search function first :dunce:It's a fair question though, since it's not really clear what exactly caused the fire. I've got a semi-crackpot theory that some of the deaths weren't accidental, i.e. they were trying life-for-life magic like Dany later uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Mielke Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sending Samwell to train as a maester seems off. If a Lord-Commander has the authority to do something like this -- sending a brother away for years of training, how can he not have the authority to just release someone from the Watch? Everything said elsewhere about how Taking the Black was for life seems at odds with this, and would seem to give the LC far more power than he appears to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asarlai Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sending Samwell to train as a maester seems off. If a Lord-Commander has the authority to do something like this -- sending a brother away for years of training, how can he not have the authority to just release someone from the Watch? Everything said elsewhere about how Taking the Black was for life seems at odds with this, and would seem to give the LC far more power than he appears to have.Well, the Lord Commander has the power to dispatch men on Night's Watch duty wherever they might be needed. Yoren was needed to travel across Westeros and gather recruits; the Night's Watch needed maesters, had business with the Citadel, and had reason to send off Maester Aemon, so Sam (his steward) was a natural choice to accompany him, become a maester, and return to the Wall.The Lord Commander can send men where they are needed, for Night's Watch purposes, but he cannot free them of their duties. He is the ruler of the Night's Watch, has power of command over the brothers, but cannot violate the laws governing the organization he rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitscralt Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Does anyone think the "chemistry" between Arya and Gendry meant anything? I know she was just a little girl at the time and Gendry was either sort of pervy or viewed her as a little sister/best friend type of thing, but rereading those chapters makes me wonder. They have a habit of using other girls and boys to make the other jealous, and Arya clearly has a little kid crush that she refuses to acknowledge because she's a tomboy.So will they ever meet again, or was it just GRRM dicking around while he wrote those chapters and it ultimately meant nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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