A Thread for Small Questions IX

[Bahimiron]

A bunch of Targaryens went to Summerhall (with other people, like that old weirwood woman's daughter) and tried bringing back the dragons from eggs, which involved copious amounts of fire. Summerhall burned down killing a bunch of people, including the King.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tragedy_of_Summerhall

It's worth noting that none of that stuff is sourced on the wiki. Translation: it ain't in the books, so it's canon is questionable. Any one of us could pop over to the Wiki and say that the Tragedy of Summerhall was Aegon V killing himself when Who's the Boss was canceled.

[Asarlai]

It's worth noting that none of that stuff is sourced on the wiki. Translation: it ain't in the books, so it's canon is questionable.

Actually, it is in the books; I recall that story, I just don't know what chapter it was in.

[Galen M]

Does anyone think the "chemistry" between Arya and Gendry meant anything? I know she was just a little girl at the time and Gendry was either sort of pervy or viewed her as a little sister/best friend type of thing, but rereading those chapters makes me wonder. They have a habit of using other girls and boys to make the other jealous, and Arya clearly has a little kid crush that she refuses to acknowledge because she's a tomboy.

So will they ever meet again, or was it just GRRM dicking around while he wrote those chapters and it ultimately meant nothing?

Is anyone else convinced that GRRM has a sister that he has/had a huge crush on? All this incest stuff, either actual or implied, I think House Martell is the only great house that hasn't had a incestuous situation mentioned. If so, it would actually mean that the whole Arya/Gendry interaction was just meant to allow for the Gendry/Bella coupling.

[Bahimiron]

Actually, it is in the books; I recall that story, I just don't know what chapter it was in.

None of them.

[Kaitscralt]

Is anyone else convinced that GRRM has a sister that he has/had a huge crush on? All this incest stuff, either actual or implied, I think House Martell is the only great house that hasn't had a incestuous situation mentioned. If so, it would actually mean that the whole Arya/Gendry interaction was just meant to allow for the Gendry/Bella coupling.

Yeah, I've mentioned that GRRM clearly has some fetishes that he overshadows in his writing, but most people here won't accept any sort of criticism of this author.

[Galen M]

Is anyone else convinced that GRRM has a sister that he has/had a huge crush on? All this incest stuff, either actual or implied, I think House Martell is the only great house that hasn't had a incestuous situation mentioned. If so, it would actually mean that the whole Arya/Gendry interaction was just meant to allow for the Gendry/Bella coupling.

Hmm, from his website:

He has two sisters, Darleen Martin Lapinski and Janet Martin Patten.

[Kaitscralt]

Oh my. :stunned:

[Asarlai]

None of them.

Actually, that source attributes quite a bit to the books.

So, from the books we know:

It is clear that some sort of tragedy happened to leave the castle ruined (III: 486, 492)

and that this event was linked to the "dream of dragons" (III: 292)

Rhaegar Targaryen in particular was deeply affected by "the shadow of Summerhall", because he was "born in grief". It is noted that he would sing of the death of kings there (III: 486).

the Ghost of High Heart states that she "gorged on grief at Summerhall" and then demands to hear "my Jenny’s song" (III: 492).

The Ghost of High Heart’s grief may be connected to the song of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies (III: 520).

Finally, it is possible that Ser Duncan the Tall, King Aegon’s friend and Lord Commander of his Kingsguard, also died there, given the fact that Ser Gerold Hightower was Lord Commander by 261 (III: 752).

From a mix of book and interview sources we know:

Martin has unequivocally stated that the tragedy had nothing to do with Maelys the Monstrous and the War of the Ninepenny Kings (III: 752, SSC)

And from only interview sources we know:

Summerhall was a lightly fortified castle that Daeron II built on the Dornish marches, roughly where Dorne, the Reach, and the Stormlands come together (SSC)

The Prince of Dragonflies was Prince Duncan Targaryen, the eldest son and (sometimes) heir (SSR) to King Aegon (SSR).

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

The other day I got to thinking, How often are high born people married through non-arranged marriages? I'm sure it's prevalent among non royalty, but I could only recall three marriages that seemed to be out of nothing but love among people of some high birth. Tyrion's to Tysha Jorah's marriage and Robb to Jeyne.

[Peter Woolshirt]

The other day I got to thinking, How often are high born people married through non-arranged marriages? I'm sure it's prevalent among non royalty, but I could only recall three marriages that seemed to be out of nothing but love among people of some high birth. Tyrion's to Tysha Jorah's marriage and Robb to Jeyne.

In real life, arranged marriages lie on a sliding scale. They range from

1. You can marry anybody you like, as long as he's Pureborn Qartheen noble, but if you're not married by age 20, we'll start helping.
   
2. We'll introduce you to three or four suitable candidates, and hope there's a mutually agreeable match with one of them.
   
3. You have no choice. You're lucky we gave you a picture of him before the day of the wedding.
   

In Westeros, there is also

• You have no choice. But if he turns out to be an evil, sadistic, idiot bastard, he dies.
  

I expect arrangement (1) wouldn't be uncommon, but can't come up with any examples. Judging from what I remember of Cersei's reminiscences about her engagement to Robert (and non-engagement to Rhaegar), I expect most marriages in noble families are somewhere between options (2) and (3), tending towards option (3) in politically more challenging times.

[tozka]

I know she was just a little girl at the time and Gendry was either sort of pervy

Gendry was 14 while Arya was 11, calling him prevy is a bit of a stretch even by any modern standards.

Does anyone think the "chemistry" between Arya and Gendry meant anything? I know she was just a little girl at the time and Gendry was either sort of pervy or viewed her as a little sister/best friend type of thing, but rereading those chapters makes me wonder. They have a habit of using other girls and boys to make the other jealous, and Arya clearly has a little kid crush that she refuses to acknowledge because she's a tomboy.

So will they ever meet again, or was it just GRRM dicking around while he wrote those chapters and it ultimately meant nothing?

I hope so, I hope he ends up being Lord of Storm End, and Arya his wife and the First Sword of Storm End.

[tozka]

The other day I got to thinking, How often are high born people married through non-arranged marriages? I'm sure it's prevalent among non royalty, but I could only recall three marriages that seemed to be out of nothing but love among people of some high birth. Tyrion's to Tysha Jorah's marriage and Robb to Jeyne.

Also Doran Martell, it is said that they fell in love and married (fortunately for them his wife was of noble birth). Though their marriage ends up being not very happy one.

[Bahimiron]

Actually, that source attributes quite a bit to the books.

Yes, it does. However it doesn't state anything that you said.

A bunch of Targaryens went to Summerhall (with other people, like that old weirwood woman's daughter) and tried bringing back the dragons from eggs, which involved copious amounts of fire. Summerhall burned down killing a bunch of people, including the King.

All what you quoted (and I linked) confirm that the books said is that something bad happened at Summerhall that left the castle in ruins and a pall on Rhaegar's birth. While common interpretation lies with what you've said, the books thus far do not mention Aegon V, whose involvement is extrapolated from the time people believe it likely happened and the Ghost of High Heart's love of the song Jenny of Oldstones and her possible involvement in "gorging on grief at Summerhall", nor do the books mention dragon eggs, but rather "a dream of dragons".

So you remember that story from fan speculation, not a chapter in the books. The fan speculation is sensical. It is not without merit. However it is not (yet) confirmed by the canon of being written down in one of the four extant books or three extant novellas.

It's a bit of a problem when someone asks a question about what the books said and people confuse their own pet theories with actual Martin-written content.

[Xenophon]

I expect arrangement (1) wouldn't be uncommon, but can't come up with any examples. Judging from what I remember of Cersei's reminiscences about her engagement to Robert (and non-engagement to Rhaegar), I expect most marriages in noble families are somewhere between options (2) and (3), tending towards option (3) in politically more challenging times.

I think there may also be a significant difference between the Great Houses and lesser nobles. Marriages between the great houses are effectively international treaties, with an expectation of military support between the two kingdoms. If you're already a lord's bannerman, not as much rests on your choice of wife.

[A'shaman]

Also Doran Martell, it is said that they fell in love and married (fortunately for them his wife was of noble birth). Though their marriage ends up being not very happy one.

What was the deal with that? Are we ever told what caused the rift? Am I right in remembering they have, for want of a better word, "divorced"?

[Kalhaven]

the Ghost of High Heart states that she "gorged on grief at Summerhall" and then demands to hear "my Jenny’s song" (III: 492).

So from the Ghost of High Heart's words, is it feasible to infer that she is somehow related to Jenny of Oldtown? "my Jenny" Else, why would she gorge on grief? Could she be Jenny's mother? I am not too versed in the timeline, but how old would this make the Ghost of High Heart?

I have always been intrigued with High Heart, Underhill (is this the name of the place where Sandor is put on trial?), and the other places the BWOB use to operate. Does anyone have any crackpot theories on who/what the Ghost is and what her powers are?

[mormont]

Yeah, I've mentioned that GRRM clearly has some fetishes that he overshadows in his writing, but most people here won't accept any sort of criticism of this author.

You may be struggling with the difference between 'criticism' and 'unfounded speculative psychoanalysis of a complete stranger'. However, I'm happy to say both are allowed. I mean, in the latter case I think people will just mostly laugh at it, but y'know, we can all use a chuckle now and then. ;)

[11th Heaven]

Gendry was 14 while Arya was 11, calling him prevy is a bit of a stretch even by any modern standards.

I hope so, I hope he ends up being Lord of Storm End, and Arya his wife and the First Sword of Storm End.

I seem to recall that Gendry was 15 and Arya was 10. I may be wrong though, but I don't have the books to hand and won't do for a while.

[YetAnotherWaterdancer]

This has likely been asked before, but do we have any clue what happens to "Weasel", the little girl that travels with Arya for a while? She just runs away at some point and disappears forever was my impression.

[zmflavius]

Yes, it does. However it doesn't state anything that you said.

All what you quoted (and I linked) confirm that the books said is that something bad happened at Summerhall that left the castle in ruins and a pall on Rhaegar's birth. While common interpretation lies with what you've said, the books thus far do not mention Aegon V, whose involvement is extrapolated from the time people believe it likely happened and the Ghost of High Heart's love of the song Jenny of Oldstones and her possible involvement in "gorging on grief at Summerhall", nor do the books mention dragon eggs, but rather "a dream of dragons".

So you remember that story from fan speculation, not a chapter in the books. The fan speculation is sensical. It is not without merit. However it is not (yet) confirmed by the canon of being written down in one of the four extant books or three extant novellas.

It's a bit of a problem when someone asks a question about what the books said and people confuse their own pet theories with actual Martin-written content.

Actually, page 520 of AFFC, Maester Aemon while talking about TPTWP:

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.