[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep 09 Discussion Part 2

[pleonasm]

As well as they handled Ned's execution, it was very well put together, maybe the best editing since the pilot, not showing a single sequence from the Whispering Woods is inexcusable.

You have a fight sequence with three of your leads (Rob, Theon, and Jamie) that doesn't require CGI or even a huge budget. No horses. Simply a wooded settting. A dozen bodies scattered about. A dozen stuntmen in combat. Rob in a fierce fight looking over tentatively as Jamies cuts through three or four men on his way to Rob. Greyjoy killing a few men with his bow. Then a confrontation between Rob and two Karstarks vs. Jamie. Jamie gets subdued after losing his blade in one of Rob's men. Rob then standing over Jamie with Theon and his wolf at his side. All of them bloodied, exhausted, and amazed they are still alive.

The scene would have payed off in spades. It could have shown Theon's loyalty which makes his betrayl next season even more dramatic. Jamie combat prowess and warped sense of honor - who has been sadly off screen for almost three full episodes and most importantly it sets up Rob as Ned's worthly successor.

For producers, what a missed opportunity.

[kairparavel]

After a rewatch it does not get any better.

In a bizarre way I guess I am glad viewers are raging and have been able to connect with the show as readers have to the books. I never really thought ten hours would be enough for the average viewer to really care.

[Vuron]

That is what happens in the books, though.

From AGOT, page 756-7:

"My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

...

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp.

I'm confused. Was there ever any question that this was Jorah's fault? I've read it a few times and never thought that MMD intentionally hurt Dany or the child. I thought that she was only after Drogo.

MMD clearly warns Dany not to come into the tent.

[Maid of Styrner Stuff]

The new episode opener with the Twins towers thrusting up onto the map of Westeros was such a trip to see! I read that there were 4 different openers made to be used in correlation with the episode locations for this season.

Many viewers, impatient for the meat of the story to be served, might have missed these swiftly passing peaks, a new steampunk edifice on the map. It is just that small but exquisite attention to detail that gobsmacks me as I watch this series unfurl.

Creativity on this level appears to be standard for D&D. It couldn't have been done better.

Re: Ned's death – from what Sean Bean has indicated, he'd druther be a free spirit as an actor, and likely would have turned down an offer of a role that could possibly last more than one season. He's been there and done that. Momoa, too. Fantastic one season parts with heroic endings. Very appealing.

[LadyT]

I'm confused. Was there ever any question that this was Jorah's fault? I've read it a few times and never thought that MMD intentionally hurt Dany or the child. I thought that she was only after Drogo.

MMD clearly warns Dany not to come into the tent.

"I thought you meant the horse," Dany says.

And MMD replies, " No. That was a lie you told yourself.". And later: " The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now."

On screen, she gets a subtle gleam of triumph when Dany tells her to go for it.

If she didn't 't mean to harm the child, whose death did she have in mind? Dany doesn't have quite as cruel a fall in the book either, but the child begins to kick as soon as the magic begins.

I've always wondered about this, what MMDs precise intentions were besides hurting the Khal. Creating a living dead Drogo and taking out his son seems like quite a triumph.

Jorah goofed, yes. But who would have died had he not carried her into the tent?

[Grack21]

"I thought you meant the horse," Dany says.

And MMD replies, " No. That was a lie you told yourself.". And later: " The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now."

On screen, she gets a subtle gleam of triumph when Dany tells her to go for it.

If she didn't 't mean to harm the child, whose death did she have in mind? Dany doesn't have quite as cruel a fall in the book either, but the child begins to kick as soon as the magic begins.

I've always wondered about this, what MMDs precise intentions were besides hurting the Khal. Creating a living dead Drogo and taking out his son seems like quite a triumph.

Jorah goofed, yes. But who would have died had he not carried her into the tent?

She clearly looks RIGHT AT dannys belly when she's talking about the sacrifice. All four of us watching noticed it.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I think the fact that Dany can hear the sounds in the tent and no one else, shows that MMD meant for this to happen. If not, she wouldn't have heard the noises.

[snowzombie]

He wasn't there when MMD told Dany that no one must enter the tent once the singing has begun. I hope it's made clear that MMD's magic was screwing up Rhaego before Jorah carried her in there, otherwise it's kinda Jorah's fault, even if it was an accident.

Good point! And in the book when Dany tries to reproach her, MMD says something like "you knew, you just chose not to think about it".

In the HBO behind the episodes video, the writers talked about establishing a narrative arc of Dany's understanding of slavery. I imagine this is going to serve as a major pivot point in that story.

[Vuron]

I saw MMD look at Dany's belly, too. It was one of things that really made me question what I had read.

From my readings, I always assumed that the horse was the death for Drogo's life. I guess that I assumed I knew how blood magic worked and that MMD couldn't sacrifice the child if Dany wasn't in the tent because that's where all the magic was happening.

MMD did warn Dany not to enter the tent. So, what does everyone think would have happened had Jorah NOT carried Dany in the tent.

I have no idea at this point.

ETA: Didn't this scene originally happen at night? I really missed the shadows dancing around the tent and thought that would have been great to see from outside.

[Xanderpanda]

I saw MMD look at Dany's belly, too. It was one of things that really made me question what I had read.

From my readings, I always assumed that the horse was the death for Drogo's life. I guess that I assumed I knew how blood magic worked and that MMD couldn't sacrifice the child if Dany wasn't in the tent because that's where all the magic was happening.

MMD did warn Dany not to enter the tent. So, what does everyone think would have happened had Jorah NOT carried Dany in the tent.

I have no idea at this point.

ETA: Didn't this scene originally happen at night? I really missed the shadows dancing around the tent and thought that would have been great to see from outside.

Yeah IIRC it was night time and Dany saw the demonlike shadows dancing around.

[laughing tree knight]

Response to some complaints:

Regarding no Tower of Joy - We love this scene as book-readers because of it's significance to the R+L=J theory. Outside of that however, it serves no purpose to the main plot and will only confuse the fuck out of the television viewer. I'm more upset actually that we didn't get at least a 'Promise Me' whisper that always haunts Ned, but again, I can't really think of a way to show this without seeming both lame and utterly confusing. The significance of these flashbacks only pertains to a theory that even in the books has not reached a conclusion. Just let my namesake reveal Jon's heritage in S5 or 6, whenever Howland Reed makes his appearance, or however GRRM decides to reveal it.

I thought the TOJ wouldnt be shown but instead eventually told from Howland reed. we don't know this yet but it's suspected. however I agree it would have been awesome. i mean the last of the greatest knights against Ned and Howland. and the of course question if rhagar is dead and aerys still sits the throne why are three of the kings guard at the TOJ guarding Lyanna. because R+L=J

I wonder if we might get to see bran and Rickon's dream talk with Ned when he tries to explain a message to Jon

[laughing tree knight]

"I thought you meant the horse," Dany says.

And MMD replies, " No. That was a lie you told yourself.". And later: " The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now."

On screen, she gets a subtle gleam of triumph when Dany tells her to go for it.

If she didn't 't mean to harm the child, whose death did she have in mind? Dany doesn't have quite as cruel a fall in the book either, but the child begins to kick as soon as the magic begins.

I've always wondered about this, what MMDs precise intentions were besides hurting the Khal. Creating a living dead Drogo and taking out his son seems like quite a triumph.

Jorah goofed, yes. But who would have died had he not carried her into the tent?

based on the way the scene played in the episode I wonder if the child was always going to be the price paid. not only does she look at the child, but she says to leave before the singing begins. Dany doesn't in face she gets sprayed with the blood of the ritual.

what if that is no accident. but the blood from the horse sacrifice marks Dany for the spell and all that happens outside of the tent is because she has agreed to pay the price. we know the MMD didn't want the stalion to mount the world. all one flock my ass

[A Time for Wolves]

what if that is no accident. but the blood from the horse sacrifice marks Dany for the spell and all that happens outside of the tent is because she has agreed to pay the price. we know the MMD didn't want the stalion to mount the world. all one flock my ass

Oh! I never thought of that. You could be right, because even on the re-read, I thought it was ridiculously dumb to enter that tent again.

By the way I hated seeing Drogo's mount die, it was such an excellent piece of horseflesh. What a waste of a beautiful specimen.

[Asarlai]

all one flock my ass

Well, she thought she was saving future generations. Which she was, if the prophecy was true. Not that killing a baby for that reason is okay; killing Drogo is more in line with stopping the monster.

[Xanderpanda]

Well, she thought she was saving future generations. Which she was, if the prophecy was true. Not that killing a baby for that reason is okay; killing Drogo is more in line with stopping the monster.

Agreed her reasoning is pretty sound. I mean she did just see her whole village get destroyed and her people killed, captured and raped. If she has a chance to take out the person responsible and the son of said person who is prophesied to mount/rape the world then its understandable she took it. Book Dany seemed so taken a back too as if saving her would make it all better which really show cased a lot of her naivete earlier in the series.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Agreed her reasoning is pretty sound. I mean she did just see her whole village get destroyed and her people killed, captured and raped. If she has a chance to take out the person responsible and the son of said person who is prophesied to mount/rape the world then its understandable she took it. Book Dany seemed so taken a back too as if saving her would make it all better which really show cased a lot of her naivete earlier in the series.

Very true. On my first reading, I think my reaction was something akin to "That bitch! She SAVED you, and this is how you repay her?!" But I'm currently rereading the series in preparation for Dance, and MMD's actions came across as pretty justifiable to me, especially when you take that "stallion who mounts the world" prophecy into account. I still felt bad for Dany, but I also saw MMD in a more positive light.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

This was a good episode and definitely an improvement over last week when Martin wrote the script. I like the game Bronn, Tyrion and Shae were playing and how it didn't look like an obvious exposition scene. I also liked the way Catelyn told Robb about the arrangements with Frey and Robb's and Theon's reaction to it. Arya's arc throughout the episode was perfect. And how can I forget Jon and Aemon? That was a very strong performance by the old man. :thumbsup:

Like others have said, the battle scenes were in shambles. I can forgive Tyrion being knocked unconscious for the battle, but there was no explanation for who Tywin was facing (he was facing the major part of the Northern force). I liked Catelyn's scene waiting for Robb and the look on her face when she finally saw him but I don't think the viewers understand that this was a completely different battle. Another point was that the Whispering Wood was an important counterweight to Ned's beheading and it just wasn't satisfactory to see Jaime being unceremoniously dumped on the ground.

Martin's tactic of glossing over battle scenes but concentrating on Cersei's nipples and Brienne's endless walk about the Riverlands may serve well in the books, but in a TV adaptation you can't ignore pitched battles.

[craster's whore]

thought i should leave this here forward to 4.50 minute mark :laugh:

My link

[Imp]

I can forgive Tyrion being knocked unconscious for the battle, but there was no explanation for who Tywin was facing (he was facing the major part of the Northern force). I liked Catelyn's scene waiting for Robb and the look on her face when she finally saw him but I don't think the viewers understand that this was a completely different battle.

Uh there was a pretty clear explanation given right as Tyrion wakes up. Tywin was facing 2k of Robb's men who were on a suicide mission, and Robb was off fighting Jamie with his other 18k. It's stated outright by Tywin & Robb.

Honestly it's been over 5 years since I've read the books so I can't even remember how the battles went down in them. But what happened in the series was pretty obvious, can't see anyone not able to follow unless they weren't paying any attention at all.

(tbh not being able to remember the details of the books has helped my enjoyment of the series a huge amount I think :P)

[evanesco75]

God, Sean Bean. You slayed me. If he doesn't get a pile of awards and a ton of acknowledgment, I'll...

I won't give a rat's stinky arse, because he's just simply that good, recognition or not.

Having read all books multiple times and GoT a week before the show began, I was still overcome. As many of you have said so eloquently, the absence of surprise didn't compromise the sheer gut-wrenching emotion one bit. I can't even imagine how non-readers must've felt. At least I was prepared. And I agree with the comment that this was one of the rare scenes that improved upon the book. There we were limited by Arya's POV; here, we saw it all. Most painfully, we saw Ned.

The way he forces his confession, out, the relief on his face when he sees Arya's left the statue, the few seconds of shock he conveys after the sentence.... masterful. So subtle and anguished and just incredible. Sean Bean, we :bowdown: to you. You shall be missed :crying:

And major props to Williams and Turner for playing it so well! Made me sniffle.

I did miss the battles and I will agree that a shot of Jaime fighting would've been perfect to reinforce his badassery and Robb's triumph. I know they mentioned the 10 men Jaime cut down but showing ain't tellin'! I'm afraid people'll forget the comment, whereas if we'd seen it happen, they'd remember all too well. Oh, well. Minor quibble.

Robb! Gah! He's a favourite of mine from the books (I'm a Stark fan while also being a Lannister fan; yup, I'm torn!) and I'm loving Madden's portrayal. He's perfect. Just the right amount of guts and agression and anger, tempered by uncertainty and sorrow. And the dynamic between him and Fairley (who is just incredibly commanding and sincere and no-nonsense) is brilliant. I felt that in 8, and I do now. It will make SoS all the more heartbreaking.

Loved the scene between him and Jaime, the latter so transparent and thankfully, the former so astute. 'Pretty man'. Heh.

Theon's reaction to the Frey terms=win. Thank God Bran is so damned adorable, or people might have difficulty hating Theon later.

Shae: I'm neutral thus far. Wait and see, I think.

Bronn: I am absolutely loving him. His dynamic with Tyrion is lifted straight from the books; the caramaraderie, the jabs, the flashes of insight...and Tyrion remains amazing. He looked so lost and wistful during Tysha, and I enjoyed the fact that while Bronn claimed Shae and he could top Tyrion when it came to horror stories, he succeeded in ultimately shocking them.

Minor quibble 2: I for one didn't like the exclusion of the 'Tywin-gold-Tyrion-Tysha-fuck' part. That's what made the experience so shameful and bitter for Tyrion IMO: his eventual (albeit reluctant) complicity in the sordid affair. Perhaps they'll include it later but if they don't, to me it'll smack of 'toning down the particularly shocking/horrifying character bits to make them more palatable.' Tyrion's a fan favourite in the books and, itr seems, the show (kudos, PD). So showing a less-than-likeable/noble aspect to him is crucial in my eyes.

Again, no ranting needed though. If they include it, I'll like it. If not, it's cool.

Walder Frey! Yes! Hello, Filch! SO what if he wasn't 90?? Yeesh! Dude was old, crabby and crafty with a kid for a wife and a hall full of kids. As in, the important parts were all intact.

Jon Snow makes me :laugh: and :rolleyes:. He's so angsty and earnest and put-upon! Somehow it's more annoying on screen. That said, I like the actor and I loved the Aemon scene. Gave me chills.

Last, Dany/Drogo. I've liked Drogo far more in the show; in the books he was a distant, cardboardy sort of figure and a complete plot device, even. Here, he has personality. Clarke did a fantastic job with her grief and fear, and the blood magic was scary as shit. Jorah vs. Bloodrider was spot on.

Whew! All in all, a great episode. Sad it's nearly done, but excited about ADWD.

Oh, and a last point: he's got a small role but the actor who plays Maester Luwin is bringing it, yo! I forgot to mention this last time, but I thought his reaction to Robb's order of calling the banners was brilliant: he gauged him, and approved of what he found without a word being spoken. Now that's class! And it's incredibly gratifying to see such great actors for every role too.

Okay, I'm done fapping. :smoking: