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[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep 09 Discussion Part 2


Xray the Enforcer

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Uh there was a pretty clear explanation given right as Tyrion wakes up. Tywin was facing 2k of Robb's men who were on a suicide mission, and Robb was off fighting Jamie with his other 18k. It's stated outright by Tywin & Robb.

Honestly it's been over 5 years since I've read the books so I can't even remember how the battles went down in them. But what happened in the series was pretty obvious, can't see anyone not able to follow unless they weren't paying any attention at all.

(tbh not being able to remember the details of the books has helped my enjoyment of the series a huge amount I think :P)

Well, no, Tywin was facing Bolton with over 10000 soldiers. Bolton lost but retreated in good order. They skipped over Robb's plan of taking the cavalry to relieve Riverrun which is why defeating Jaime was so important. I don't think that was portrayed in a convincing manner.

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loved the episode, thought it was brilliant

but i didnt like how they robbed us of the whispering wood, iirc it was more a skirmish with a few nights as jaime was rather over confident with his siege of riverrun and often went out with his scouts, so numbers shouldnt be a problem with regards to cost..

and in the books i really loved jaimes 'i would offer you my sword, but i seemed to have misplaced it' knowing full well that it was 'misplaced' in one of lord karstark's sons neck.. without seeing that it lost its dark humour and arrogance for me.

i just hope they have saved budget for next weeks episode, a bit worried that dany is going to come out of the fire with spyro, yoshi and godzuki around her! :leaving:

still though, i am loving this adaptation, its only a opinion on my part

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The new episode opener with the Twins towers thrusting up onto the map of Westeros was such a trip to see! I read that there were 4 different openers made to be used in correlation with the episode locations for this season.

I can't wait to see Storm's End and Dragonstone on the map. Next season. In one year.

Damn, how am I going to wait a whole year for season two?

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As well as they handled Ned's execution, it was very well put together, maybe the best editing since the pilot, not showing a single sequence from the Whispering Woods is inexcusable.You have a fight sequence with three of your leads (Rob, Theon, and Jamie) that doesn't require CGI or even a huge budget. No horses. Simply a wooded settting. A dozen bodies scattered about. A dozen stuntmen in combat. Rob in a fierce fight looking over tentatively as Jamies cuts through three or four men on his way to Rob. Greyjoy killing a few men with his bow. Then a confrontation between Rob and two Karstarks vs. Jamie. Jamie gets subdued after losing his blade in one of Rob's men. Rob then standing over Jamie with Theon and his wolf at his side. All of them bloodied, exhausted, and amazed they are still alive.The scene would have payed off in spades. It could have shown Theon's loyalty which makes his betrayl next season even more dramatic. Jamie combat prowess and warped sense of honor - who has been sadly off screen for almost three full episodes and most importantly it sets up Rob as Ned's worthly successor.For producers, what a missed opportunity.

completely and wholeheartedly agree with this one...

actually glad they cut out all that spikey helmet nonsense

Unfortunately dreading how they'll handle Blackwater; almost sure we'll never get The Bridge of ships and Tyrion's "Those are brave men. Let's go kill them." line

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On the lack of battles:

I think they were stuck in a tough place with the Tywin/Bolton battle. Those big epic battles look like crap unless you are making a 100 million dollar movie.

Not to be offensive to anyone, but if they had just showed Tyrion's small part, I think it would have played like a comedy routine. He's a really small guy, watching him charge into battle is likely not going to come off well. Next year they will have to figure out how to do something.

The Wispering Woods was a poor decision to stick with the POV. A short, inexpensive scene would establish the three major characters. Jaime as the true swordsman of Westeros, Theon as Robb's loyal friend and Robb as the commander who wins with his wits. It would also make more sense next season when they flashback and show him killing the Karstarks.

On Shae:

Who cares? Her only purpose in the books is a sounding board for Tyrion to have conversations with when he's not with Bronn. She does that fine. Her other job on the show will be to show her tits. She did that fine. Her final job on the show will be to make those awful slurping sounds. We'll see if she can do that.

On Ned's Death:

The show version is preferable to the books for me. The show actually gives you false hope several ways (Jaime being captured right before makes you wonder if they know in KL) and Arya's visible sword and charge towards the stage adds a huge dimension. Is she going to somehow make a rescue? Is it going to be even worse and is Arya going to be killed? Seeing Cersei and Varys reaction adds a nice touch also.

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On Ned's Death:

The show version is preferable to the books for me. The show actually gives you false hope several ways (Jaime being captured right before makes you wonder if they know in KL) and Arya's visible sword and charge towards the stage adds a huge dimension. Is she going to somehow make a rescue? Is it going to be even worse and is Arya going to be killed? Seeing Cersei and Varys reaction adds a nice touch also.

Agreed. The only way it could have been improved is Joffery looking to Littlefinger just before he makes his speech. I'm a big fan of the idea that it was Littlefinger's manipulation of Joff that led to him defying his advisers and a (literal) wee nod to that would have made me very happy.

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Agreed. The only way it could have been improved is Joffery looking to Littlefinger just before he makes his speech. I'm a big fan of the idea that it was Littlefinger's manipulation of Joff that led to him defying his advisers and a (literal) wee nod to that would have made me very happy.

I think it's the accepted wisdom that it was a few choice words from Littlfinger that influenced Joffrey - IIRC that was Tyrion's suspicion. I was looking out for this during the scene and while there isn't much, there is a shot of Littlefinger smiling quietly while Varys has a few angry words with him.

Regarding Ned's death, I wish I could care more about it, but a recent read has reminded me that he's such a frustrating and somewhat unlikable person. He would have brought Stannis to the throne and didn't give two shits about the war with the Lannisters that would result. He calls it honour, I call that an excuse not to think about the real world consequences of his actions.

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But changing Shae all around because they liked the actor is stupid. They could have changed somethings, but to change the whole character is dumb IMO. Thats how I feel

I agree with this. Without the intricate and layered background that GRRM created for the book Shae the TV Shae will be a soulless automoton, incapable of playing her role in the series as whore, lover, maid, traitor and victim. When one realizes what a buttress to the entire series the role of Shae plays, how key a support her existence is to every scene that follows, removing her is like removing the keystone from an ancient bridge and the whole of the epic tale will fall apart around those who continue acting out their hollow part to play, unrealizing the ultimate purposelessness in their own part now that the ground on which their story is built has turned to sinking sand.

It is a literal, a literal slap in the face! How can we stand for this? How? Do you not hear the people? Listen and their voices will be made clear. Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry nerds! It is a music of a fandom that will refuse to go unheard!

Barricades here we come, brothers.

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I'm torn on this episode. Everything they showed was fantastic, but as a Jaime fan I can't help but feel cheated at missing his one major battle. It sucks even worse because I could have sworn I remember reading somewhere that the directors were so excited to give us the whispering wood battle scene. WTF happened?!

It's the same with the brandon stark flashback from the previews before the show started. Where did that go? Our only chance for it now is as a Jaime flashback while he's rotting in Riverrun.

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I took this as a moment of comic relief. I was certainly amused, especially by Theon's expression. Maybe Roslin is the one that Catelyn was referring to?

I know that some have commented that Robb's response to Catelyn's marriage arrangement in the show seemed immature compared to the books, but...isn't that just as realistic for a boy trying to grow up all at once and become a man? And it's not like that reaction is totally out of character for him in the books either. You could argue that the Red Wedding was a result of his immaturity regarding women. He allowed himself to be "comforted" by Jeyne, which started the whole messed up chain of events that culminated in the worst party ever.

I don't understand why people say that comment was immature. Its a question EVERY person would be asking themselves and I actually find it quite odd he didn't inquire about it in the books. In the show, the very fact he consents after the.....response that Catelyn gives him, shows a much deeper sign of maturity.

If anyone on these boards were arranged to be married, in this setting or in westeros, the first question you'd ask if you could (especially if you had a choice in choosing) would be are any good looking on first glance. Say it wouldn't be and I'll call you a liar.

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There were only two considerably disappointing things for this episode:

1) No Whispering Woods

2) Drinking game took too long

Otherwise, everything else was good to awesome. I'm on the fence regarding Shae, so I'll not call her disappointing yet. Although it seems to me that the actress can't act all that well compared to the rest of the cast.

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I don't understand why people say that comment was immature. Its a question EVERY person would be asking themselves and I actually find it quite odd he didn't inquire about it in the books. In the show, the very fact he consents after the.....response that Catelyn gives him, shows a much deeper sign of maturity.

If anyone on these boards were arranged to be married, in this setting or in westeros, the first question you'd ask if you could (especially if you had a choice in choosing) would be are any good looking on first glance. Say it wouldn't be and I'll call you a liar.

I guess it's just that considering the gravity of the situation, it's sort of a trivial and immature thing to consider with all the other shit that's going down everywhere.

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Maybe this means we won't be seeing quite so much whining from Edmure as they head off toward the Twins in s3.

In my own moment of spergitude I was kind of disappointed that Bronn mentioned a Braavosi knife game that could cost a man his fingers when there's a perfectly good reference to the fingers game that could have been dropped in there. Oh wells.

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I was thinking that, by omitting the part in Tysha's story where Tyrion was forced to take her and pay her a gold coin, the writers may not be planning on introducing that fact at all. For purposes of the show that story probably was meant only to serve the purposes of garnering a LOT of sympathy for Tyrion as a character (since we'll be spending a LOT of time with him in S2) and to hammer home just how cold and ruthless Tywin Lannister is. Some people would take the fact that Tyrion went along with his father's demand (not to mention that his body actually 'responded' after seeing what he had seen) as a showing that Tyrion is not actually a good person. Many people would probably use that part of the story as a reason to dislike the character instead of feeling sorry for him. We don't have the luxury of Tyrion's inner monologues to hear him talk about how disgusted he was with himself and how "my body betrayed me."

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I agree with this. Without the intricate and layered background that GRRM created for the book Shae the TV Shae will be a soulless automoton, incapable of playing her role in the series as whore, lover, maid, traitor and victim. When one realizes what a buttress to the entire series the role of Shae plays, how key a support her existence is to every scene that follows, removing her is like removing the keystone from an ancient bridge and the whole of the epic tale will fall apart around those who continue acting out their hollow part to play, unrealizing the ultimate purposelessness in their own part now that the ground on which their story is built has turned to sinking sand.

It is a literal, a literal slap in the face! How can we stand for this? How? Do you not hear the people? Listen and their voices will be made clear. Do you hear the people sing? Singing the song of angry nerds! It is a music of a fandom that will refuse to go unheard!

Barricades here we come, brothers.

<slow clap>

Well played, sir or ma'am. Well played.

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Funny, the Unsullied reviews I've read have been unanimously positive about The Drinking Game. Probably because it's got a) Peter Dinklage to the max B) Bronn being funny and c) we get some important Tyrion backstory. Plus we get a look at this mysterious new whore. Try watching it again without your book-tinted glasses on and enjoy it for what it is.

It does raise one question, though. After hearing what happened to Tyrion's earlier whore, why does Shae stick with him? Is lots and lots of gold worth being gang-raped? Book Shae seems dumber than TV Shae. I can't help feeling TV Shae would GTFO before she gets her mixed up in Lannister family politics. Something bad might happen!

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why does Shae stick with him? Is lots and lots of gold worth being gang-raped?

I think because Shae heard and understood that what happened to Tysha happened because she married Tyrion=married into the Lannister family, something Tywin Lannister was never going to tolerate.

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I was thinking that, by omitting the part in Tysha's story where Tyrion was forced to take her and pay her a gold coin, the writers may not be planning on introducing that fact at all. For purposes of the show that story probably was meant only to serve the purposes of garnering a LOT of sympathy for Tyrion as a character (since we'll be spending a LOT of time with him in S2) and to hammer home just how cold and ruthless Tywin Lannister is. Some people would take the fact that Tyrion went along with his father's demand (not to mention that his body actually 'responded' after seeing what he had seen) as a showing that Tyrion is not actually a good person. Many people would probably use that part of the story as a reason to dislike the character instead of feeling sorry for him. We don't have the luxury of Tyrion's inner monologues to hear him talk about how disgusted he was with himself and how "my body betrayed me."

In many ways for seasons 2 and 3 (let's hope), Tyrion is the hero and Tywin is the villain. It's odd as Tyrion is fighting FOR the clear villains (Tywin, Cersei, Joffery), but he really is the hero, especially after the Red Wedding. In this regard, I think this is likely true.

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Earlier people were talking about what Ned could have shouted out, well "Brotherfucker!" would have worked but would have ruined the scene which was perfect. Though they missed the opportunity earlier in the scene where Mormont tells Jon that he sent Thorne to King's Landing to drop Yoren's name in then to remind the viewer that he exists so he doesn't pop up out of nowhere.

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