[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep 09 Discussion Part 2

[Starchaser]

Clash of Kings, probably the first Dany chapter but just guessing on there, he tells her about his wife being with another man now and all that.

[valacirca]

So I finally talked today with a non-reader friend of mine who has been a passionate fan of the TV series. He got the chance to watch Ep 9 last night.

... ... ...

The comments that worried me were in relation to the capture of Jaime. He was totally confused: "What the hell happened? I don't understand."

So I explained it to him, as I often do. His response?

Him: "How the hell are you supposed to figure out this show if you haven't read the book?? You tell me afterwards and I can deal with it -- but what do you do if you don't have some friend in the know? Those-battles-that-weren't. Man. How the fuck are we supposed to figure all that out on our own?"

To D&D: the man has a point.

I totally agree. D&D dropped the ball with The Battle of Whispering Wood. I battle with Tyrion was fine the was they copped out of it, but the episode really suffered without they putting the capture of Jaime into context. If they had handled that passably, the episode would have been the best of the series.

[howland_reed]

My friend surmised that Ned was dead around Episode 5, when he got speared in the leg.

Friend: "Sean Bean's not lasting the season is he."

I couldn't keep a straight face, so my response:

"Nah, wait till you see how he gets revenge in season two."

"Thanks for the spoiler, jackass."

Now he's even more pissed at me after this episode lol.

[Narrow C]

My two coppers worth...

I think a low-budget, montage-style battle scene could have been done (see the Battle of Agincourt scene in Kenneth Brannagh's Henry V; dudes and horses in the mud, swinging swords and falling face-first into the muck. No CGI required.)

Shae doesn't bother me, but that scene did run long. She's alternating lines with Tyrion, and we're getting exposition on HIM, but she's avoiding any response which could have given us exposition on HER. Pity. I did love Bronn's response to Tyrion, though, after bringing him Shae... "We're in the van tomorrow." "Think I'll get one for myself..."

Filch as Walder Frey? Well, he scores full points in the creepiness category...

I loved how the EW article considered Ned's offing to be "groundbreaking" and unexpected. Were they thinking D&D would break away from the primary storyline of the books the series is based on? They're not making up the source material as they go along. Should Marc Anthony have beaten Octavian and lived Happily Ever After with Cleopatra? Maybe Moses should have said, "hey, fellas, let's head west. I hear Tunisia's lovely this time of year."

Besides, they needed Sean Bean to give the series a big name actor to draw people in. They couldn't afford him for more than a year anyway, not with that big a cast.

[mcb]

I loved how the EW article considered Ned's offing to be "groundbreaking" and unexpected. Were they thinking D&D would break away from the primary storyline of the books the series is based on? They're not making up the source material as they go along. Should Marc Anthony have beaten Octavian and lived Happily Ever After with Cleopatra? Maybe Moses should have said, "hey, fellas, let's head west. I hear Tunisia's lovely this time of year."

My thoughts exactly - although triggered by Sean Bean's praise of HBO's courage (“But I thought it was a great decision by the writers. They not only kill the king off, they kill his right hand man”). You usually don't get credits for thinking outside the box, if in your adaptation of "Romeo and Juliet" both lovers die.

[Arya The Assassin]

I'm curious about one thing:

Why did Ned whisper Baelor to the guy (I don't remember his name) who held Arya before Ned was beheaded? What does Baelor really mean? (I reread the first book not too long ago, but I still don't remember the meaning of the word)

[AquariumDrinker]

I'm curious about one thing:

Why did Ned whisper Baelor to the guy (I don't remember his name) who held Arya before Ned was beheaded? What does Baelor really mean? (I reread the first book not too long ago, but I still don't remember the meaning of the word)

The statue that Arya was clinging to was a statue of Baelor. When Yoren looked at the statue, he saw Arya, and went to protect her.

[TheMountainThatAbides]

I'm curious about one thing:

Why did Ned whisper Baelor to the guy (I don't remember his name) who held Arya before Ned was beheaded? What does Baelor really mean? (I reread the first book not too long ago, but I still don't remember the meaning of the word)

He whispered Baelor to Yoren because Arya was standing on the statue of Baelor. He wanted him to look after her.

[Arya The Assassin]

The statue that Arya was clinging to was a statue of Baelor. When Yoren looked at the statue, he saw Arya, and went to protect her.

He whispered Baelor to Yoren because Arya was standing on the statue of Baelor. He wanted him to look after her.

Ah, now I see, thanks :) I thought the guy was looking for Arya anyway and wanted to keep her safe and get her out (IIRC, that's the way it was described in the book). But I can see why they did it like that in the TV show.

[The Knight of Grasses]

Have D&D done any interviews or video where they talk about their decision to omit everything in The Whispering Wood? I didn't mind it as much as some, but I do think it could have been done better. And it looks like it confused some non-readers, although my non-reader friends picked up on it easy enough.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Have D&D done any interviews or video where they talk about their decision to omit everything in The Whispering Wood? I didn't mind it as much as some, but I do think it could have been done better. And it looks like it confused some non-readers, although my non-reader friends picked up on it easy enough.

Maybe we'll get a flashback next episode? They may have wished to use their limited time to show Jaimie captured to give people a false sense of Ned's safety. "Ah, they can trade them".

[Mad Sweeney]

I do have one major complaint about the episode that I remembered after watching it again. Pauper Arya is supposed to be not only a filthy street urchin who hides her definitively un-urchin-like sword and is often confused as a boy. She looked almost exactly the same as she always has, slightly disheveled, slightly dirty. Then she jumps up on the highest point in the crowd to where the first thing Ned sees is her. Every Lannister guardsmen as well as the royal family have been looking for her for quite awhile, but no one sees her up on the statue pedestal, looking the same as she does all the time? They needed to make her dirtier and less recognizable, a father would still be able to tell it was her. But it's actually quite absurd that none of the people on the "stage" saw her when Ned clearly did.

[BarrileteCosmico]

The omission of the whispering wood plans did bother me, but not as much as Tyrion not talking about his 'gold'. Do you guys think they'll save that revelation for later or that it won't get shown at all?

[howland_reed]

Ah, now I see, thanks :) I thought the guy was looking for Arya anyway and wanted to keep her safe and get her out (IIRC, that's the way it was described in the book). But I can see why they did it like that in the TV show.

Nah, in the books, since we're in Arya's PoV, we just know that Yoren found her and grabbed her and made her turn away. We have no idea really how Yoren spotted her in the crowd, but Ned pointing her out to him makes sense and is a good use of some creative license on the writers part.

I love how the show set it up so that casual viewers would think that a raven would get to KL's in time to let the Lannisters know that Robb has Jaime.

Trump card comes too late.

[Areo]

Do HBO plan to make "Ser Ilyn, bring me his head" t-shirts? Cuz that scene was amazing, really did justice to the books. Respect!

[Arya The Assassin]

Nah, in the books, since we're in Arya's PoV, we just know that Yoren found her and grabbed her and made her turn away. We have no idea really how Yoren spotted her in the crowd, but Ned pointing her out to him makes sense and is a good use of some creative license on the writers part.

Ah, my memory must have failed me, because I imagined that the reader somehow knew that Yoren was looking for her. But like you said, it makes sense that she didn't, and it was a nice creative touch that the writers added the shot with Ned and Yoren.

[Lion of Venice]

The forum seems to have eaten my post (my first post, for that matter!) so hello everyone, again!

Anyway, I just wanted to praise the TV Walder Frey and Bronn in this episode, they are perfect! Also, the scene of Ned's death was even better then in the book in my opinion, being closer to Ned and his reactions.

I didn't like TV Shae, she seems some sort of Lady Taena, only less sweet, and Roz seems to have Shae's personality in the TV show... I don't know why book Shae wasn't good enough for the TV, I always liked her as she was.

[Jaxom 1974]

Still reading through the responses from both threads (very repeitive in terms of what the "issues" were...but I digress...)

My reactions:

1. Tyrion and the Battle of the Green Fork: I admit to doing a double take when I realized they were going to skip it once they hit him with the war hammer...I was okay over all with that decision...

2. But the Battle of the Whispering Wood...I was okay with not seeing it, because we're not supposed to. What I was slightly let down with was that I thought we were going to be getting it when we saw Catelyn at the top of the rise looking down over the forrest. Then all of a sudden, here comes Robb and it's over...

2A. (SIDEBAR) - I'm annoyed that Ser Rodrik is still hanging about. Get back to Winterfell, darn it! That's how it went in the books. Another opportunity missed to have the honor guard about her...

3. Shae. I am more than prepared to accept her as a change. The alteration of having Tyrion tell his story of Tysha to her and Bronn in the manner they did was odd to me. It could have easily been done on the Mountains of the Moon with Bronn alone as it was in the book...but whatever...

Everything else just rocks. And for fun, the Sports Radio station I listen to during the day just had a small conversation about GoT and how one host needs to get on it and watch it and that while he is a fantastic actor, Peter Dinklage has an unfortunately funny name...and he's actually not British... :P

[Leuf]

Well, no, Tywin was facing Bolton with over 10000 soldiers. Bolton lost but retreated in good order. They skipped over Robb's plan of taking the cavalry to relieve Riverrun which is why defeating Jaime was so important. I don't think that was portrayed in a convincing manner.

In the book, yes, on the show it was 2000. Which means Robb had around 20-22k when you add in the Freys vs Jaime's 30k. I believe they just simplified things dramatically to make it easier for the audience to understand without getting into the nitty gritty, but then also wanted the audience to simultaneously be confused and think Tywin beat Robb for a couple of seconds. They went halfway with explaining it and halfway with trying to make you think Robb lost and achieved neither.

The problem is that 2000 men have no chance of beating Tywin or convincing him that Robb's whole army is still there, so why in the world would they rush down with a night march to go die and reveal the truth even faster? There's no point at all to Robb dividing his forces the way it is shown on the show, other than for the cheap unconvincing moment of trying to make you think Robb has lost for a few seconds. Everything as far as the battles go was just not done well.

[Aganerral]

I do have one major complaint about the episode that I remembered after watching it again. Pauper Arya is supposed to be not only a filthy street urchin who hides her definitively un-urchin-like sword and is often confused as a boy. She looked almost exactly the same as she always has, slightly disheveled, slightly dirty. Then she jumps up on the highest point in the crowd to where the first thing Ned sees is her. Every Lannister guardsmen as well as the royal family have been looking for her for quite awhile, but no one sees her up on the statue pedestal, looking the same as she does all the time? They needed to make her dirtier and less recognizable, a father would still be able to tell it was her. But it's actually quite absurd that none of the people on the "stage" saw her when Ned clearly did.

I think this mostly has to go with necessities of TV. She still needs to be recognizable to viewers. Plus, they probably don't want to make it look like a kid is really suffering.

Seeing her with Needle does raise a good question...how exactly could she hide that while in the books? Needle isn't small like a dagger or knife, about the only thing she could do is hide it down her pants leg, but then she'd be walking stiffly and probably couldn't catch pigeons :) On TV it's weird to see a street urchin with a sword, but if you think about it, in books she's a street urchin with a somehow hidden sowrd AND a wooden training sword.