[BOOK/TV SPOILERS] Shae

[Clemontine]

Shae might not be a powerful character, but such a secretive woman does not engender the sort of trust necessary to fall in love. Tyrion must lose his head, and it looks like the route HBO is going to take is to make Shae into an exotic Bravosi consort, who seduces him into infatuation. I would not find shocking at all for this Shae to betray Tyrion, and it would generate no deeper sympathy or emotional response.

They just wanted to spice her up and make her more interesting for the screen. I dont think anything will come of her background. But I agree with the above post. They will have to change Tyrion's relationship with Shae a lot. She is just not the kind of woman he would fall in love, but be seduced by perhaps. Which will lead to us feeling less sympathy at her death.

I will lay money on the fact that Chataya and Alayaya won't be in the show. So the easy solution was to make Shae reflect that... Even if it changes things.

They might find away around it but I think Chataya and Alayaya would have to be in it to lead to Tyrion telling Cersei he will turn her happiness into ash in her mouth, which leads to his guilty trial. But then again, maybe not.

[sweetrobin]

In the Baelor episode, you can see Shae is wearing a ring that looks like it is a stylized eye. This is similar to the necklace that Mirri Maz Duur wears. We know Mirri speaks common tongue, as does Shae. Shae claims to be highborn, which is consistent with being the daughter of a godswife. She plays with fire, so its possible she has been taught some Maegi spells.

[Sixshells]

I also have a problem whith the character derailement with TV-Shae, to the point I find it offensive.

Not that the character was anything particularly interesting except as being Tyrion's weakness (and somewhat of an idiot ball) and a tool to show us some of the most intimate parts of his psyché, but I dislike the character they seem to want to make there. I could completely buy book-Shae as a common girl girl making her way in life being a camp follower, using the opportunity to climb socially through soldiers ou noblemen like she did with Tyrion, and that made her "betrayal" believable. As stated above, her common extraction also told a lot, about Tyrion's qualities to look at people, including women, beyond their ranks, and at the same time about his desperate need to be loved. TV-Shae annoys me because she is not real : I can't buy into the whole "bored woman who wanted a change in life" and whoring as a hobby thing, whether it is an act or not. The mysterious airs she gives herself look so much like they are directly from your usual soap opera it just makes me want to kick her out of the story.

This is why her scene with Tyrion in the season finale made me cringe, because it promises her way to much prominence for my own comfort. This veiled threat to see her at court seems to promise much character derailment, not only on Shae's part (at this point she is toast anyway) but also on Tyrion, since there was a limit to his disobedience, and on part of the plot. Another problem I had with that scene is that at that point in the story book-Shae would never have permitted herself to emote like that. She had already hooked him up well enough so he would take her with him to KL, but not that well she could just whine about the restrictions like that. Later, of course, she is able to do that, but it's when Tyrion has become more and more infatuated whith her. Not so soon however.

It also creates problems whith Tyrion's character of course since it makes his personnality a little too "perfect". His affectional immaturity is as much a part of him as his cunning mind or his disgratious looks. Removing that from him takes the show a little apart from the whole "broken beings" theme of the series and complicates some of his motivations.

I generally don't mind adaptive tampering, but Shae having a "secret" past starts moving ASOIF closer to "junk" fantasy. Junk fantasy has princesses or nobles or spies posing as whores. ASOIF has camp followers who are actual characters.

I couldn't say it better. Cheap fantasy cliché indeed.

That would be true if the TV show Tyrion was portrayed as being more heroic than in the book, but aside from his aspect, which is less deformed then in the book, he is portrayed more inept at anything else then chatting (trampled by his own soldiers, anyone?).

We can blame that on the lack of resources to shoot great battles. It's unfortunate however about the character.

[reiver]

It also creates problems whith Tyrion's character of course since it makes his personnality a little too "perfect". His affectional immaturity is as much a part of him as his cunning mind or his disgratious looks. Removing that from him takes the show a little apart from the whole "broken beings" theme of the series and complicates some of his motivations.

This worries me. I have been slightly concerned ever since the Ned's bravado previews that they're rounding the edges of a lot of characters so they more easily fit the clearly defined (and cliched) roles of hero, villain etc. and stripping a lot of the complexity and ambiguity of the books. My first thought on seeing Pycelle's physical deception was "oh, they've given Tyrion a pass, again". Like you say Tyrion is a little too perfect and when combined with Dinklage's looks and the lack of Tyrion's inner thoughts we really aren't seeing the treatment, or potential for the treatment that defines Tyrion's character.

[Lupigis]

I have been very unimpressed with the "Shae-change" for this reason (or a very similar reason, I can't judge at the moment if we're thinking the same way or not). The thing is: Tyrion is very delusional in the book and has some serious bonding issues with women, resulting from his traumatic Tysha experience. For me, having a strong, intelligent, fascinating and whatnot Shae character (like the show Shae) takes away a lot of the impact. I found it pretty sad (and of course fascinating at the same time) that Tyrion is, in fact, so damaged as to project whatever he wants into a terribly common woman, and a whore at that. I always imagined "his" dream Shae to be a total fabrication, especially because I imagined book Shae to be a rather dull (maybe good looking, but dull anyway) character.

Now what happens if we make Shae a much more interesting character? Suddenly Tyrion's budding fascination and love becomes something much more tangible, even reasonable depending on how far the show producers go with it. It's a change I really don't like, because it makes Tyrion so much less tragic.

This was very well put. I just want to add something that I wrote in the Ep 10 thread that fits better here:

With a stronger, more experienced and independent TV Shae, how will that testimony and Tyrions reaction to it play out? I have no idea, but I'm worried that HBO will take the easy way out and turn TV Shae into someone who actively betrays Tyrion, as a free choice. That would make his murder of her an act that would be much easier to justify for those who want to idolise Tyrion. That would be a shame, IMO, because the murder of book Shae is a turning point for Tyrion that is even more important than his subsequent murder of Tywin.

The above is just my speculation. In two years time or so we'll know, and in the meanwhile we can all hope that I'm wrong.

[Ser Greguh]

I didn't get the impression that they were making any significant hints that Shae was particularly highborn at all. To me, the point of the whole "I never" guesses that Tyrion flunked (miserably) was not to hint at a specific backstory for the purpose of revealing it later, but simply to set Shae up as generically enigmatic, and thus, someone in whom Tyrion would show an interest besides his obvious desire for sex. That Tyrion can't figure out her whole story right away only makes her more attractive to him. If there's one thing that intellectual people like in a companion, it's a challenge, and she provides that for them. Unlike most of the whores that he's used to, Shae is willing to talk back and challenge him. I think it makes her a good match for him.

I'm not particularly caring of whether or not it matches the book, only whether or not it serves the story. Shae in the books started out as quite a bit more simple and unchallenging, but evolved particularly in book 2 into someone that was more of a legit foil for Tyrion. To me it looks like D&D just accelerated her to that point in time right away.

[Nebiros]

I didn't get the impression that they were making any significant hints that Shae was particularly highborn at all. To me, the point of the whole "I never" guesses that Tyrion flunked (miserably) was not to hint at a specific backstory for the purpose of revealing it later, but simply to set Shae up as generically enigmatic, and thus, someone in whom Tyrion would show an interest besides his obvious desire for sex. That Tyrion can't figure out her whole story right away only makes her more attractive to him. If there's one thing that intellectual people like in a companion, it's a challenge, and she provides that for them. Unlike most of the whores that he's used to, Shae is willing to talk back and challenge him. I think it makes her a good match for him.

I'm not particularly caring of whether or not it matches the book, only whether or not it serves the story. Shae in the books started out as quite a bit more simple and unchallenging, but evolved particularly in book 2 into someone that was more of a legit foil for Tyrion. To me it looks like D&D just accelerated her to that point in time right away.

It's interesting that so significantly different stances on this issue can coexist so well among the readers. For me (and some other people obviously), an "interesting" Shae severely diminishes the impact of Tyrion's arc. I'm really intrigued how the show producers will handle this in the future, especially in the next season. To this point, the change with Shae was the only departure from the books that really irked me in this series.

[snake]

I don't like the TV Shae at all. Too big a departure from the books.

The Imp in the novels has a soft spot for bastards, cripples and broken things. That's what attracted him to Shae after the initial lust wore off. He wanted someone to protect and care for and someone who would care for him. Shae let him believe that she loved him and needed him and while deep down he knew what she was, he was contented to to let himself be fooled.

On the show it seems the Imp is the submissive to her dominate character.

[Lord Varys]

I really think the new Shae is necessary due to the fact that we have gotten a new Tyrion as well. Peter Dinklage is no Quasimodo-type-dwarf with mismatched eyes and a sloping forehead. I don't see a guy like him would fall for an ordinary girl, despite her being pretty and all. Book-Tyrion is not attractive at all. He is ugly and repulsive, and is utterly correct in his self-assessment that no woman would ever love or touch him if he would not pay her.

That's also why Tywin's treatment of Tysha is all the more evil in Tyrion's eyes. She was the one woman among millions who actually honestly loved him.

But Peter-Dinklage-Tyrion is a pretty attractive guy. He is a dwarf, yes, but, well, he is also technically the heir to Casterly Rock and a very rich, very influential man. And he is not ugly. And he is also not that uncomfortable around beautiful women as Book-Tyrion is. He does not fall in love with Ros, so Shae has to be another type of woman, or else this whole story is not really convincing.

[Sixshells]

As attractive and charming Peter Dinklage is, I don't think he can be considered as "tv handsome".

However, Tyrion is still a dwarf, and that alone, even if he is on the other hand not ugly, is enough to cause self-representation and esteem issues, particularly in a time where dwarves are not supportively looked upon. Actually, being a "regular" or even rather attractive person is no protection to self-representation issues. So IMO saying Peter Dinklage is not unattractive is not saying much in the context of the character of Tyrion Lannister. That character has a long history of despise and abuse, just because he was a dwarf, however attractive or not-unattractive he may elsewise be. In the show itself, he is characterised even before we see him for the first time as "a little beast" (by Cercei), then there is the famous "every dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes", and his speech about never forgetting what you are because others sure won't, all point to a similar history of prejudice and abuse for TV-Tyrion as well. Let's also not forget that in the books we can actually see his lack of confidence in front of women through his POV, that we don't get in the show. However even in the book he was established at being good at showing a confident front, and I think we can see only that in the show.

As for his relation with Shae, I suppose they rushed to the love story because they must have felt it would be harful for such a popular character to see him just using his whore in a relatively businessy fasion. However in the book he is not "in love" with Shae at that point. I just reread the part where he learns he has to go to KL, and it seemed to me as though he may not necessarily have taken her with him if his father had not been that adamant about him not taking her. It feels really as a rebellious move against his father rather than an decision motivated by love. Of course he wouldn't have if he hadn't liked her, but I don't think there is love from him at this point.

To be frank, I doubt there is a point in the books where he is in love with her. He grows more and more addicted to her, becoming less and less able to refuse her and taking increasing risks to continue being with her while her demands grow stronger as her control over him grows, but it has been pointed out in previous Tyrion discussions that he has problems with women and establishing healthy relationships with them. The argument about him not falling in love with Ros is moot IMO : we know Tyrion has been with lots of whores, in the book and in the show, and he never fell in love with them either. The difference whith Shae (in the books) seems to me that he intended to have her for some and made her have this "exclusivity agreement" (that seemed entirely reasonnable given that they are in a camp where it's difficult to find an good whore), that she seems to be really good at her job (whitch is to make him believe she finds him very attractive), and the fact that he had not had sex for quite some time. But he remains quite cynical about the whole relationship and reminds himself that it's all business. She manages to grow more and more on him but not rightaway. I don't see book-Shae throwing a scene at book-Tyrion at that point, since he decides to keep her just to spite his father.

To me there is a double derailment of Tyrion's character. The first is obviously the consequences of the adaptation choices, however he remains quite close to the books (points to his painful history and so forth). But then there is a second derailment from the moment TV Shae appears and they make him rightaway completely comfortable with her and unable to resist her, which is more ASoS behaviour. Anyway I wonder (and fear) how they will pull off their relationship for the next seasons.

[fitheach]

Thinking about tv Shae and book Shae, they may be connecting what Tyrion loved in book Shae with her "ending" up with Tywin. Maybe Tyrion preferred a simple gal (I can understand that completely), but I could never imagine Tywin screwing the maid/whore- seemed off character. He seems the type who'd like something more exotic and elegant...

Maybe that's one of the compromise HBO made with the characters.

[Aegonmyface]

The tragedy of Tyrion making Shae into his surrogate Tysa was both painful and powerful partially because she was just an average, slightly-pretty girl.

Here's a man, during book 2, who rules the seven kingdoms but risks it all almost on a chapter-by-chapter basis just to have the illusion of feeling loved by a woman who isn't even spectacular. I hated how every Tyrion chapter ended with a visit to Shae, but I probably hated it because it was so psychologically painful. He wanted to go home to the girl.

I think exotic, older, sexier TVShae was a terrible miscast. I'm half convinced Martin just thought she was really hot and wanted her to get the part.

[Sixshells]

Thinking about tv Shae and book Shae, they may be connecting what Tyrion loved in book Shae with her "ending" up with Tywin. Maybe Tyrion preferred a simple gal (I can understand that completely), but I could never imagine Tywin screwing the maid/whore- seemed off character. He seems the type who'd like something more exotic and elegant...

Maybe that's one of the compromise HBO made with the characters.

I don't see as a contradiction that book Shae ends up with Tywin. It was part of the overall thematics of the books, that everyone has hidden parts to himself, and the revelation he was having whores is quasi traumatic not only to Tyrion but also so Cercei. Lets also not forget that even if Shae was arguably a commoner, she was also beautiful and quite good at her job. I don't doubt she would have been able to go beyond simple camp follower and be employed in a classy whorehouse had she not managed to become a nobleman's kept woman.

Also as someone said in the sex/relationships topic, another objection to TVShae lies in the books. There are some scenes that clearly show that Tyrion hates when Shae is being assertive and willful, for example when he has learned about Cortnay Penrose's death and she expresses her unhappiness at the arrangements he wants to take to put her safe in prevision of the battle at KL, he becomes pissed and slaps her. It's another argument showing that Tyrion liking tv Shae is out of character.

[fitheach]

I don't see as a contradiction that book Shae ends up with Tywin. It was part of the overall thematics of the books, that everyone has hidden parts to himself, and the revelation he was having whores is quasi traumatic not only to Tyrion but also so Cercei. Lets also not forget that even if Shae was arguably a commoner, she was also beautiful and quite good at her job. I don't doubt she would have been able to go beyond simple camp follower and be employed in a classy whorehouse had she not managed to become a nobleman's kept woman.

Also as someone said in the sex/relationships topic, another objection to TVShae lies in the books. There are some scenes that clearly show that Tyrion hates when Shae is being assertive and willful, for example when he has learned about Cortnay Penrose's death and she expresses her unhappiness at the arrangements he wants to take to put her safe in prevision of the battle at KL, he becomes pissed and slaps her. It's another argument showing that Tyrion liking tv Shae is out of character.

I completely agree that book Tyrion wouldn't go for tv Shae. I always thought he preferred less complex and easygoing lovers and friends in his life. Although, book Shae got on my nerves and probably wouldn't have translated well on tv...

I get the thematics of the novels, but to me it seemed that Tywin wasn't the type of man to go for a simple silly whore like Shae, no matter how pretty she was. He just didn't strike me as that kind of man. Yes, he was an absolute hypocrite with the no whores policy, but I had a hard time seeing him go for the same kind of woman as Tyrion- despite the similarities in their (Tyrion and Tywin's) character. I would've been shocked either way- that he had any whore in his bed (and this secret life), but couldn't buy into his going for pretty but boring Shae. Enough so that he let her wear the chain of the Hand... Maybe he was more like Tyrion than I thought, and preferred simple. :dunno: Maybe that's the real shocker.

Also a good way for George to kill two birds with one stone, and push certain characters forward...

[GreyJackal]

Other than Tyrion's whore she never really had much of a significance for me......

[Easy]

He could afford any whore he wanted but stuck with Shae. There must have been something that kept him attracted to her. Book Shae had just the right amount of wit(nothing too profound) to keep Tyrion on his toes and interested. He's a witty guy and enjoys a bit of banter. She knew the strings to pull to keep him in a good mood and never once made him feel unattractive or anything less than a normal man.

TV Shae just doesn't have that vibe. It looks like they exchanged that for mysterious, high born haughtiness to give her a back story for some future revelation.

It doesn't bother me but I can't see her having that connection with Tyrion that book Shae had.

[Envie]

I really think the new Shae is necessary due to the fact that we have gotten a new Tyrion as well. Peter Dinklage is no Quasimodo-type-dwarf with mismatched eyes and a sloping forehead. I don't see a guy like him would fall for an ordinary girl, despite her being pretty and all. Book-Tyrion is not attractive at all. He is ugly and repulsive, and is utterly correct in his self-assessment that no woman would ever love or touch him if he would not pay her.

That's also why Tywin's treatment of Tysha is all the more evil in Tyrion's eyes. She was the one woman among millions who actually honestly loved him.

But Peter-Dinklage-Tyrion is a pretty attractive guy. He is a dwarf, yes, but, well, he is also technically the heir to Casterly Rock and a very rich, very influential man. And he is not ugly. And he is also not that uncomfortable around beautiful women as Book-Tyrion is. He does not fall in love with Ros, so Shae has to be another type of woman, or else this whole story is not really convincing.

I'll agree with the 'Lord Varys' theory on the changes to Shae. I'm not overly fond of the more petulant, pushy and over-confident Shae - but the chemistry seems to work a little better with the better looking, much more confident Tyrion as cast for the show. Tyrion always had a way with words, but he didn't strike me as the same sort of arrogance the other Lannisters had. The show Tyrion does have that arrogance and it works for the condensed version of the story. The audience doesn't get all the detailed background like you do in reading the book, and therefore some characters need fleshed out a bit more heavily (such as that scene with Pycelle and Roz) in order to give watchers a more clear understanding of either unknown character flaws or future plot developments.

[Ser Greguh]

Personally I think people are way overthinking the importance of specific aspects of Shae's character in the books in terms of how she relates to, and is important for, Tyrion. It's not important to the books at all that she be exactly what she is: what's important is ONLY, really, that she is pretty, sexually willing, and receptive to Tyrion's offer to act as his courtesan / pseudo-girlfriend rather than be just a straightforward whore. That she was common and rather naive/unsophisticated at first in the books (though she did develop a kind of low sophistication as the story progressed) was immaterial: the whole point of her importance to Tyrion was not her real qualities, but rather Tyrion's willingness (in fact, readiness) to project onto her the qualities he most wanted, which of course then all go back to his obsession with Tysha. Changing her personality in the TV show doesn't change her fundamental purpose to the story in the slightest.

[Sega AM2]

Shae is the worst example of David Benioff & D.B. Weiss just goofing on GRRM and making changes because they don't respect the original source material. The show is filled with pointless and nonsensical changes that reek of "hey let's try to prove GRRM wrong and do things our own way". These changes are gross ego trips for the writers who must feel bored about verbatim scripting from the books and feel compelled to march to the beat of their own drum. If they wanted to make their own story then they should have done it...but why take GRRM's books and then make changes for no reason whatsoever. Scaling things down for an adaptation isn't even acceptable because this is HBO. They didn't scale down the battles in Band of Brothers and The Pacific and they should've have for Game of Thrones.

Let's look at some differences...

Having Littlefinger tell Sansa of The Hound's past? GRRM wrote it one way but I guess HBO thought they knew better than GRRM with his own story.

Making Theon into this sympathetic dolt instead of an outlandish asshole? Could they not afford a prop head at the deserter's beheading? Theon is known to be untrustworthy and in the book Ned realizes he'll need to have Theon watched closely when someone makes a move to unseat Joffrey. In the show Theon is like Robb's blood brother.

Drogo raping Dany instead of falling in love with her and seducing her? In the books Drogo is mesmerized by Dany's unique looks and tries to be gentle with her even though that is not at all the Dothraki way. In the show he essentially ignores her during their entire 'courtship' and then proceeds to violently rape her several times. Dumbing down GRRM's characters so that audience members can easily see Dany's character evolve.

Having The Others make a satanic circle of bodies...how did the chopped up corpses turn into Wights and abandon the camp then? In the book The Others reanimate the intact Wildling corpses and they become Wights and wander from the camp. In the show the bodies just magically disappear. I guess the writers didn't realize what happened in the prologue or something and must have thought that The Other simply carried away the Wildling remains in plastic bags or something.

And changing The Others to White Walkers was pathetic. What are they afraid that people will compare The Others from LOST to Game of Thrones? We know GRRM laughs at LOST and for HBO to pussy out and go with White Walkers so as not to compete with LOST was a major cop out. And what will happen with the dozens of lines of dialog where someone says "let The Others take them" and so on? Let the Walkers take them?

Catelyn telling Ned on the show to NOT ride to King's Landing is another "out of nowhere" change. In the books she blames herself for Ned's death as well the deaths of so many others because she insisted he go to King's Landing. In the show it looks like Ned is a complete moron for disobeying his wife who pleads with him not to go and that Ned rides to his death because he's a stubborn moron.

And of course Shae. Instead of seducing Tyrion and being submissive in the books, and eventually betraying Tyrion because he turns her into a kitchen wench, and denies her jewelry and gold. Now we get Shae the highborn foreigner who dominates and aggressively berates Tyrion. "Did Tywin mention me by name?!" I cringed at that line. And how she'll be teaching women at court in King's Landing? Is she going to lead the charge into the field at Blackwater? Will she be at Joffrey's wedding as well and they'll change her witness testimony? I can only imagine the stupidity that HBO has in store for TV Shae for the readers.

[1000 Needles]

TV shae does not work for me at all.

I can understand changing a few things to streamline the story. That's reasonable, and I can live with it as long as the story rolls smoothly along.

But this is a major departure and it just feels wrong on so many levels. I even find the actress to be completely unappealing and off-putting. I'm not looking forward to more of her.