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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior V

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The old thread reached 21 pages, so I figured I'd start yet another.

There's a passage from the book that I was rereading, and I don't think we've discussed it all that much.

On page 174 Mimara is reflecting on Soma and she thinks that Akka is wrong about why Soma is there. Akka thinks that The Consult is watching him because he's Mandati as usual, but Mimara thinks it's because they want Akka to succeed and reach Sauglish. She thinks that this is because they fear almost nothing as much as the possibility of more like Kellhus. "The possibility of Ishual."

Does this offer us any insights into as to what happened to Ishual? Does this suggest that Mimara is right about The Consult's intentions but that it's therefor even more likely that Kellhus himself destroyed it?

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I dunno, that seems to imply that Mimara is making some kind of insight into the plans of the Consult, but really it's a pretty logical assumption - the skin-spy could have killed Akka at any point and did not, so it would follow that it at least doesn't want them to fail. It us not a big intuitive leap from there to think that it wants them to succeed.

Also consider that the skin-spy could not have been with them earlier than Marrow, because they traveled alone. So it doesn't really make mich sense for Akka to assume it's following him as opposed to the expedition as a whole.

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You mean as opposed to watching Nil'giccas who is much more likely the object of Tsuor (Soma's) scrutiny.

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You mean as opposed to watching Nil'giccas who is much more likely the object of Tsuor (Soma's) scrutiny.

What I got out of the whole thing was Soma was watching Cleric, then he started watching Mimara.

But the question remains - did the Consult follow Akka to Ishual? Or did their intelligence only extend to what Akka told the Captain - that there was treasure in the Coffers, enough to make all the men princes?

Now, depending on how important Akka and Mimara and Cleric are to the Consult, there might be other skin spies close enough to the slog to see the two former get to Ishual.

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Why would they be watching Nil'giccas? Is it just because he used to be their great enemy and they figure they ought to keep tabs on him?

It seems like he's been uninvolved with the rest of the Nonmen for some time.

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You mean as opposed to watching Nil'giccas who is much more likely the object of Tsuor (Soma's) scrutiny.

Maybe, maybe not. I can't really think of any particular reason that the Consult would be shadowing Cleric, honestly. He's an Erratic, one of thousands. Yes, he was the king of Ishterebinth, but given that his condition it is extremely unlikely that he would be able to do to threaten the Consult.

Now... a company of scalpers led by a fanatical Zaudunyani that includes this particular Erratic... that may be something worth watching. Especially since the Consult may or may not be aware of Akka's location or the orders given the Skin Eaters to remain near Marrow. That's why I think that the Consult would more probably be watching the SEs as a group than just Cleric.

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Why wouldn't the Consult keep tabs on Nil'giccas seems a better question? If he's an exile and Ishterebinth is allied with them, it is likely he is the only Cunuroi not allied with the Consult. That makes him worth watching. But he is worth watching by virtue of being Nil'Giccas. He is an Old Name. He is the last Nonman King. He is Ishroi. Presumably he is the last surviving general of the Cuno Inchoroi wars and the Anasurimbor wars against Golgotteranth. He potentially knows more about Golgotteranth than any living creature not in Golgotteranth (he spent twenty years warring through its labyrinths and had a census made of the place), just his being out in the world is an enormous risk, what if he comes in contact with Kellhus? And I doubt any skin spy or synthese is remotely capable of taking on Nil'Giccas. They fear to attack him directly. It's possible they fear NG more than they fear Kellhus, and Akka, in killing him, did them an enormous favor that may well embolden them.

**

random thought, I wonder if Akka wearing NG's outfit to Ishterebinth will be what causes Ishterebinth to ally with the great ordeal.

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............................. She thinks that this is because they fear almost nothing as much as the possibility of more like Kellhus. "The possibility of Ishual." Does this offer us any insights into as to what happened to Ishual? Does this suggest that Mimara is right about The Consult's intentions but that it's therefor even more likely that Kellhus himself destroyed it?

While the idea is not absurd, it is perhaps unlikely that Kellhus destroyed Ishual. Kellhus could have destroyed the place with ease on an unpublicized jaunt. With almost equal ease the Consult could have destroyed the place, and after all, they, the Consult, were actively searching for the Dunyain, and with their resources it is likely that they found it.

If this is correct, then the Consult are still terrified of Kellhus (and maybe they had first hand experience of more like Kellhus - prodigious fighters but innocent of sorcery). Kellhus is not innocent of sorcery, so any edge Achamian gives them in his search is all to their benefit, so perhaps it makes sense that skin spies tag around Achamian. For all we know, A.'s slaves could be skin spies; skin spies are insidious.

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But it didn't seem like the Consult had kept tabs on Achamian from Aurang's discussion with Tsuor. Aurang clearly knew what Tsuor was doing but Achamian was a new factor. As well as Mimara. That leaves NG or Kosoter as possible watchees.

It does make a lot of sense that they would keep track of NG. He is possibly the only nonperson who could turn Ishterebinth against them, if he wanted to. I'm surprised they didn't try to kill him though. Can't be impossible for a few skin-spies with Chorae.

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Did we establish why the skin spy exposed itself to protect Mimara yet? Because I'm thinking its there to watch her.

Not that the others aren't interesting, but Cleric seems to be primarily interested in her too.

I think he only feeds the others quirri in order to get it into her, and perhaps he has an interest in getting her to ingest his quirri ashes.

Think I'll read back through some of the Cleric/Mim interactions in AE.

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Here is the relevant quote again from WLW, between Soma and the Old Father:

A Synthese... vessel of the Old Fathers... The thing called Soma fell to its false face...

'You were to watch him' the bird said, a miniature scowl creasing its expression

'Things have changed.'

Eyes like blue beads closed then opened. 'How so?'

The thing called Soma dared raise Mimara's face. 'A sorcerer, a Gnostic sorcerer, hired the company several weeks ago... He hopes to find the Coffers.'

A moment of palm sized confusion.

'The Mandate? The Mandate has hired the Skin Eaters?'

'No... I'm not sure... He claims to be a Wizard, a sorcerer without a school. Even still. Chigra burns strong in him. Very Strong.'

The Synthese bent its tiny head down in momentary meditation. 'So the old fool has found his way back to the benjuka plate... And he discovered you? Drusas Achamian?'

'No... There is a woman with him - one who has been taught how to recognie us. A pregnant woman...'

A sharp puppet nod. 'The face you wear... I see.' Shadows fluttered around the bird form, as if some greater eye blinked about the world. An intimation of rage and power. 'Mimara.'

As for Mimara, there is a lot of mystery around her. She has the Judging Eye, Achamian implies that this is somehow connected to pregancy, there is Cleric giving her weird looks, there is the idea that the name Mimara has been heard before, has been lived before.

This last section with the Synthese seems to connect with that. He sees the face, and it seems like he remembers what her name is, even though he has never met our Mimara.

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Pretty sure Aurang would have to be stupid not to recognize Mimara. He's the Warlord, he has kept tabs on the Three-Seas for centuries. Even if he's personally never met Mimara, he HAS met Esmenet. And he knows what Mimara is supposed to look like. More likely than not, he saw Mimara if he's ever taken the risk of flying over the Andiamine Heights.

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When I reread the part where Cleric said something like "It has been so long since I remembered a human name" I had a funny thought. I think that this most likely means that Cleric is remembering another Mimara from far into the past, but I was not certain. I wasn't entirely sure that it didn't mean that he forgets people's names all of the time and he just remembered hers. This theory could easily be shot down if there is any evidence in the text of Cleric referring to anyone else by their name, but I don't remember any.

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When I reread the part where Cleric said something like "It has been so long since I remembered a human name" I had a funny thought. I think that this most likely means that Cleric is remembering another Mimara from far into the past, but I was not certain. I wasn't entirely sure that it didn't mean that he forgets people's names all of the time and he just remembered hers. This theory could easily be shot down if there is any evidence in the text of Cleric referring to anyone else by their name, but I don't remember any.

The only time I remember is when they are heading into the coffers and Cleric says this is where my demise is, and Akka says, as well as my loincloth (or similiar), then Cleric says something like , how i cherish your wit Seswatha.

So it isn't quite a correct memory and he is remembering from the past.

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Just to put the original question to bed, the passage quoted by Calibandor clearly shows the skin spy was sent to watch (i) a man (ii) that is not Akka. The two possibilities are Kosoter or NG. NG seems way more likely.

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I like this concept that Mimara is an ancient name of a hugely significant historical figure ala Esmenet.

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Took me ages to find out why 'Esmenet' was a historicaly significant name, and there was certainly foreshadowing involved in that.

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Took me ages to find out why 'Esmenet' was a historicaly significant name, and there was certainly foreshadowing involved in that.

I... I do not remember this. Do I recall so little?

I would appreciate if any of you could elaborate a little on why it was significant.

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Another thought I just had (oh Esmenet was the name of the wife of one of the warrior prophets/shamans that broke the gates and led the people into Earwa, iirc, wife of Angreshraël daughter of Shamanet... should have mentioned that before), If Mimara's name is significant and historical (as the name Esmenet itself is) that would indicate that Esme had a hand in the names of all her children, that it wasn't just Kellhus picking the names. If so, there may be information revealed about the namesakes of Theliopa and Inrilatis that will be very intersting (as well as Mimara).

This suddenly strikes me as so obvious as to be painful, Kellhus didn't give a flying fuck about Moenghus' name, even though he knew the kid would be considered his first born. It would be consistent for him to let Esme name the kids how she liked. I have just presumed that Kellhus named his kids after Nau Cayuti, Serwe, Celmomas and his twin, because I just expected Kellhus to get his way and do what he liked with his kids names. How very... sexist... of me.

But yeah:

Mimara - ?

Moenghus - not named by Esme, not her kid, named by Serwe for Kell's father, a common enough tradition in numerous cultures

Kayutas - named for Nau Cayuti

Theliopa - ?

Inrilatis - ?

Serwa - Named for Kellhus' first wife, the martyr of the circumfix

Kelmomas - named for Celmomas

Samarmis - named for Celmomas' twin (can't remember the name).

Does anyone remember if there was any namesake info about Inrilatis or Theliopa, or have we heard of any names that they might be named after?

could Inrilatis be named for Inri Sejenus?

iirc, there was some 'play' with Mimara's name in either TJE or TWLW. Mim-Ar-A I remember that phrasing that someone (I think it was Akka) was having about her.

edit: Fuck it. Bakker is too fucking smart for us. Esmenet's namesake is connected to The Breaking of The Gates. The most significant thing that has happened in the Aspect Emperor series is Mimara's "Closing of the Gate" Close reading also seems to suggest that Mimara is a historical name, as Esmenet is.

I Do Not think that connection to 'Gates' is a coincidence.

Maybe there is something to the crackpot idea that The Breaking of the Gates was not the physical gates of legend at all. Rather they were gates of Animata and sorcery that kept men in a prison-limbo world. Oh! Foucoult! mwahaha!

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