[Book Spoilers] EP110 Discussion #2

[Tywin's bastard]

And another question, what if Game of Thrones was a buddy comedy?

[Nebiros]

As for the definition of a dragon, that's definitely not restricted to the four-legged and winged creature. The dragons in the show are definitely within the definition of what can be a dragon so you are entirely correct there.

Just to pour some more gasoline on the fire (B)) regarding the hotly-debated (B)) question of dragons having four or two legs: If we are going to suspend our disbelief and accept that dragons existed, the more "realistic", if you will, way of showing them is the two legs, two wings way. If you look at animal life on earth, all vertebrates that have wings (birds, bats) have wings that are "modified arms", evolutionary speaking. If a dragon had four legs and two wings, that wouldn't really fit in with any of the other animal life "blueprints" on earth. And all the rest of those earth animals are also routinely depicted in fantasy settings. My two cents from a biologist's point of view. :)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

OMG! Whay are they having Shay go to Cersie? !Ack!

I like the show and stuff but the changes are jamakinmecrazy! :tantrum:

First they change the wolves, then Shay, who knows what's next?!

The writers care more about nudity than the spirit of the novels!

Irony, anyone?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Spirit, not letter(s).

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

It doesn't matter how many damn legs they've got, they are still dragons. Chinese dragons don't have wings, yet they're still dragons. There are plenty of other fantasy stories where dragons have only 2 legs. The main feature of a dragon is the fire breathing ability.

So no more of this "it is known" crap. It is not known, because dragons have never been proven to have existed so that leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

I agree. I also lol'd.

Once, an ex of mine who is a designer/animator, was looking for pictures of dinosaurs, and got mad that he couldn't find a single photo to work from. I just said "oh my God, you are an idiot." Then he realized what he had just said.

[Maltaran]

Who is the Lord who said "I will have peace on thoose terms" ment to be.

In the book this was Karstark, so in the absence of anything to the contrary I assume it's still him.

[Phoenix]

Haha I know it sounds awful. I'm amazed at some of the stuff people complain about myself. I guess everyone has their own thing.

Let me try to explain.

First: Why not use the original sentence to please the fans, if it doesn't matter anyhow?

Second: I do think it matters. To me the emphasize is now on the first sentence, whereas I think adding "There is.." makes the second sentence more powerful.

I respectfully disagree. I thought him saying "Only me" was much more powerful. He sounded so...resigned when he said it. Thought it was great. He knows he's speaking the truth, and the first sentence is still arrogant as all fuck, but the second sentence sounded so sad.

And, I just said it out loud both ways, and the way it's written in the books sounds weird and awkward to me. It's a big mouthful, you know?

[Unnamed]

Well, I'm not afraid to say it. The whole Shae debate can be easily summarized/simplified: What the creators of the show have done is replace MaryAnn with Ginger, and we're supposed to expect Gilligan to fall in love with her, when everyone knows it was the Skipper who was attracted to Ginger (Gilligan was terrified of her).

Oh, and I just want to point out that complex minds (Tyrion) are not always attracted to complex mates. In particular, Tyrion's life experience has taught him that complex people are not to be trusted. The one person that he has fallen for in his life was more simple.

Please Note: I mean "complex" in the sense of "devious/schemey" and "simple" in the sense of "not complex". I never thought Shae was simple-minded. Rather, the book Shae did a great job of playing the "simple" person Tyrion wanted her to be (aka Tysha Reborn).

Fundamentally, the chemistry seems all wrong because the Tyrion that I imagine would view someone like TV Shae with nothing but suspicion. "Bronn, what the hell is this? She's nothing like MaryAnn."

-VM

[Spider From Mars]

I don't know if this was discussed in the previous thread but one thing I found strange was the changed line for Jaime.

Instead of "There are no men like me. There is only me" he said: "There are no men like me. Only me".

It's one of my favorite lines in the book, I don't understand why they would change it.. If they decided to take it from the book why not keep it intact? It's not like the NW speech, that it just takes too much screen time..

On a more positive note: Osha _O_

I can't wait to see what GRRM has on store for her in the future. Think the actress has been cast perfectly.

I have nothing substantial to say in regards to your comment, but I have to ask what _O_ is supposed to be/mean?

[Unnamed]

Her baby might not be a dead lizard, but it would be dead. I don't think the eggs hatching have anything to do with MMD's blood magic spell, however the trauma that Dany goes through during MMD's Revenge might be an emotional/supernatural trigger for the eggs to hatch. And maybe she needed to "burn" as well to activate the eggs. And that would easily explain her empathy with the eggs.

But her baby wasn't a dead lizard, was it? It was a dead lizard with wings. That is, it was a dragon. And here's the thing, her dead baby (at least in these books) could have looked like anything. Based on your reading, wouldn't it have made more sense for it to look horselike, or to be human with heavy black eyeliner? GRRM could have had the child look like a monkey, a crocodile, an earthworm, or a Jabberwock, with eyes of flame...but he didn't.

So, why did the stillborn child take the shape of a dragon? For me, this was the reason that I believe that the life of the child went, not to Drogo, but to the dragon eggs. As a matter of fact, when I first read GoT, it was at this point in the book (when the stillborn dragon was described) that I became absolutely sure that we were going to be seeing some live dragons. Up until that point, I was suspicious that the dragon eggs were just going to sit on the mantle through the whole story.

Again, not to say that your reading is wrong, but this seemed to me to be a critical point. I think I've mentioned that I don't automaticatlly "trust" what characters say about their thoughts/motivations. Regardless of what MDD said or what her motivations were, the fact is that Dani delivered a stillborn dragon (not just a Targaryan, but an actual winged lizard), and that's a really strange thing to have happen, even in this fantasy world. Surely it means something...

Yet, as I understood your post, you don't seem to think this is a significant point (that the fetus turned into a dragon), and I'm wondering how that can be.

-VM

[Ferrum Aeternum]

It doesn't matter how many damn legs they've got, they are still dragons. Chinese dragons don't have wings, yet they're still dragons. There are plenty of other fantasy stories where dragons have only 2 legs. The main feature of a dragon is the fire breathing ability.

So no more of this "it is known" crap. It is not known, because dragons have never been proven to have existed so that leaves plenty of room for interpretation.

This. A thousand times this.

I was too damned busy basking in the awesomeness of the scene to notice how many legs the little fuckers had.

They had wings, a tail and looked like dragons. However, this debate has conjured up a damn funny image of a geeky dude nerdraging at the screen...."dammit HBO! Those are WYVERNS!!! Not DRAGONS!!!!" :tantrum:

[Gryffindor Queen]

and we're supposed to expect Gilligan to fall in love with her, when everyone knows it was the Skipper who was attracted to Ginger (Gilligan was terrified of her).

-VM

:agree:

Tyrion = Gilligan! It's SO true! Couldnt have explained it better myself!!

It makes me wish Bronn calls him Lil Buddy even! Teehee!

[Gnomestress]

I'm not so much annoyed that they changed Shae. I don't really mind that they've made Cercei a little less crazy and a little more relatable (although in the second season, I think they're going to show more of her evil side) Roz grows on me episode by episode. Subtlety has been sacrificed for more obvious gestures, conversations, and plot points but that is necessary for TV. I'm taking all changes with a nice heaping grain of salt. Some of them I'm actually enjoying (I'm personally a fan of TV Cat & TV Jon. I didn't like them at all in the books.)

What gets me is what they changed Shae into. Shae 2.0 lacks the naivete, sweet disposition (however feigned), and corn-fed charm that makes book Shae fit into place in the plot. Bronn, the clansmen, & Shae combine together in the books as a connection to the more common side of Westeros. Tyrion is besieged day and night with the affairs of noble people, the vast majority of which have it out for him. He takes solace in the simplicity of Bronn's nature (Money + Survival). Timmett Son of Timmett, Chella, Shagga, and the like are steadfast in their loyalty and Tyrion is amused by their mundane and savage view of the world (AKA: This bothers you? Kill it dead.)

Book Shae fits right in to this idea of that which is commonplace as less threatening and therefore comforting to Tyrion. The other women he encounters are noble and if not outwardly hostile to him only speak to him to further their own ends. Shae is just the opposite of those threatening women. They put on airs, speak with elevated language, and come from powerful families. Shae is straightforward, crass, and is as common as a weed. It is this difference from his enemies that makes Shae someone Tyrion lets his guard down around. She is his one bastion of support in a city full of people who want to see him fall. He trusts her because he thinks that she is loyal and too stupid to plot against him.

Shae 2.0 is similar in many ways to the noble women that threaten Tyrion in King's Landing. She keeps secrets, carries herself proudly, puts on airs, and she has said flat out that she is not a commoner. I fail to see how Tyrion could ever come to trust and love her. She doesn't fit into the rest of the people that he surrounds himself with in King's Landing.

One last thing. A major theme during Shae's time in King's Landing is the fact that Tywin clearly states that she's not to go to court. Once ousted from the manse Tyrion kept her in, Shae is hidden as a chambermaid. A common girl, however pretty and at times insolent can fit in as a lady's maid. Mysterious, exotic Shae 2.0 will stick out like a rose in a field of dandelions. Lady Tanda isn't the brightest but I think even she would notice...

EDIT-After I posted I read Unnamed's post...therefore I'll ad that :agree: on all points.

[Unnamed]

But her baby wasn't a dead lizard, was it? It was a dead lizard with wings. That is, it was a dragon. And here's the thing, her dead baby (at least in these books) could have looked like anything. Based on your reading, wouldn't it have made more sense for it to look horselike, or to be human with heavy black eyeliner? GRRM could have had the child look like a monkey, a crocodile, an earthworm, or a Jabberwock, with eyes of flame...but he didn't.

Slave 1: [screams] Gods! What is that? [coughing] That is no stallion.

Slave 2: No, it is a salamander.

Jorah: That is no salamander. It is the salamander's mortal enemy, the basilisk.

MDD: You're both wrong. This creature has wings. Look at its eyes. And do you hear that burbling? That is [pause] a Jabberwock.

Jorah: What the fuck is a Jabberwock?

Sorry, my mind just works this way.

-VM

[TheMountainThatAbides]

I have nothing substantial to say in regards to your comment, but I have to ask what _O_ is supposed to be/mean?

Haha I'm sorry, I'm used to another forum. It's this smiley.

[Eponine]

One major complaint I do have is why the fuck nobody is wearing goddam heraldry.

It too much work to give Lady Mormont a damm bear?

I also wish there were more heraldry. And if I hadn't read the books, I'd really really wish there were more heraldry. It's more a personal problem than a problem with the show, because I don't remember faces very well - people all kind of look the same to me - I had to watch the first episodes of Deadwood twice because of that. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't know who everyone was because of the books, I'd be totally lost. Having a secondary way to distinguish characters would be helpful. This is probably one of the reasons I don't watch much TV. I understand why it's not in the show in many cases - the extra expense and complication of such specific wardrobing - but it's such a compelling part of the books that it's a shame it's not more present in a visual media.

[Mad Sweeney]

I couldn't find this topic anywhere else so I thought I'd drop it here and see what people have to say:

Does it bother anyone else that the dragons don't have forelegs?? Personally I'm wondering how they prevent thier wings from getting dirty or torn up since without forelegs they must use thier arms (to which thier wings are attached) for everything from holding thier food to fighting each other and other things. Also have to wonder if they are capable of running on the ground since their wings would be a hinderance and presumably get caught up underneath thier arms.

Also, for D&D / WoW / RPG fans out there: Dragons without forelegs are called Wyverns. It is known.

Yes, it bothere me. I was always a fan of Elmore dragons and most had forelegs. As for wyvverns, as a DnD geek, they don't get as big as the dragons in ASOIF so it's not quite the same. Still, I prefer my dragons to have 4 appendages plus wings.

[Silverx2]

I wonder if viewers thought it was odd to see the hound in kingsguard armor.

[Lupigis]

Dear Ludigis (sp?),

Below is a quote from the locked portion of this thread. You were responding to my differences in how my dislike for Syrio is different than the Shae Is So Different From The Books That It's Ruining Two Characters crowd.

Shae only needs to appear as a whore to capture her essence.-Me

Frankly, this only goes to show that you don't understand the essence of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion wery well. Read Eponine's post again! - You

You've taken this way out of context here. I was discussing their APPEARANCE. You can tell I was discussing their APPEARANCE by my use of the word APPEAR as well as the context of the original quote which you did not include. Frankly, this only goes to show that you don't understand what you read very well. Read the entire post again, only this time use context and actual definitions of words.

I am aware that you were discussing Shaes appearance. However, your words about "her essence" could easily be interpreted to mean the essence of her being. Using the context of the post from Eponine that you were replying to and the previous discussion, where Eponine brought up several aspects of Shae I concluded that that's what you meant. Your post simply wasn't as unambiguous as you think it was, but if I offended you I apologise.

[Mad Sweeney]

But her baby wasn't a dead lizard, was it? It was a dead lizard with wings. That is, it was a dragon. And here's the thing, her dead baby (at least in these books) could have looked like anything. Based on your reading, wouldn't it have made more sense for it to look horselike, or to be human with heavy black eyeliner? GRRM could have had the child look like a monkey, a crocodile, an earthworm, or a Jabberwock, with eyes of flame...but he didn't.

So, why did the stillborn child take the shape of a dragon? For me, this was the reason that I believe that the life of the child went, not to Drogo, but to the dragon eggs. As a matter of fact, when I first read GoT, it was at this point in the book (when the stillborn dragon was described) that I became absolutely sure that we were going to be seeing some live dragons. Up until that point, I was suspicious that the dragon eggs were just going to sit on the mantle through the whole story.

Again, not to say that your reading is wrong, but this seemed to me to be a critical point. I think I've mentioned that I don't automaticatlly "trust" what characters say about their thoughts/motivations. Regardless of what MDD said or what her motivations were, the fact is that Dani delivered a stillborn dragon (not just a Targaryan, but an actual winged lizard), and that's a really strange thing to have happen, even in this fantasy world. Surely it means something...

Yet, as I understood your post, you don't seem to think this is a significant point (that the fetus turned into a dragon), and I'm wondering how that can be.

-VM

Because she's the Last Dragon? I used lizard when I should've used dragon. There's obviously some connection between Targaryens and dragons so that's what I figure happened to the kid. The way I read it, both times, was that the baby was Drogo's payment. And the clumsy glance to Dany's belly in ep 9 really confirms that to me. The price for life is a death. Baby=Drogo. Whether she's in the tent or not. The deformation figures to be a side effect of the bloodmagic that may or may not have happened whether she went into the tent or not. But no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Rhaego was the price for Drogo's "life".

As for whether it's a significant point or not, well I guess I just don't know. Maybe that's to show how dangerous bloodmagic is. Because quite frankly, I don't see what the taboo would be if a horse could pay for a human life, even in a horse loving culture. For bloodmagic to have not only the taboo that it has but also the rareness that's implied, then the price of it needs to be more than a critter. Until GRRM makes a point about the baby's deformations, I'm going to assume from my interpretation that the death of the baby for Drogo's "life", in whatever form, is the important part to take from it on top of the fact that MMD deliberately sabotaged first Drogo and then her "liberator" (who is nothing but the wife of MMD's ultimate tormentor. Maybe more about bloodmagic will be explained later on.