R + L = J Part XXIII

[Aegon's Landing]

Yes, probably not. After all, Ned is dead, Lyanna is dead, even Cat is dead (but unfortunately not dead enough). I cannot see how GRRM can make anything significant out of this whole issue after completely ignoring it for 15 years.

My sincere hope is that Martin doesn't sacrifice good story telling and artistry in plot development just to stick it to the Fantasy Cliche...or readers' theories. An epic like this sort of tells itself, and to force it in another direction at this point is folly. Martin must needs tell the story. period.

[Kalbowski]

My sincere hope is that Martin doesn't sacrifice good story telling and artistry in plot development just to stick it to the Fantasy Cliche...or readers' theories. An epic like this sort of tells itself, and to force it in another direction at this point is folly. Martin must needs tell the story. period.

What?

[mormant]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend.

So how come Jon has zero dragon in his blood?

In all the prophecies of Dany, why was Jon never mentioned?

Why is Jon such a wolf if he is really half dragon? Name me 1 example where it shows Jon as a dragon. Just 1. I mean 1 tiny example where it shows Jon is even slightly a dragon.

[Xenophon]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend.

So how come Jon has zero dragon in his blood?

In all the prophecies of Dany, why was Jon never mentioned?

Why is Jon such a wolf if he is really half dragon? Name me 1 example where it shows Jon as a dragon. Just 1. I mean 1 tiny example where it shows Jon is even slightly a dragon.

I'm not sure what you mean by "having dragon in his blood" or "is a dragon", but re. the prophecies, Dany sees a blue rose growing out of a wall of ice. Since blue roses are associated with Rhaegar + Lyanna, that's frequently taken to be a vision regarding Jon.

[K-dog]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend.

So how come Jon has zero dragon in his blood?

In all the prophecies of Dany, why was Jon never mentioned?

Why is Jon such a wolf if he is really half dragon? Name me 1 example where it shows Jon as a dragon. Just 1. I mean 1 tiny example where it shows Jon is even slightly a dragon.

Jon is training with the lanky swordsman from Eastwatch and gets hit on the head. The hit reminds him of an interaction with Robb where Jon says he is the Lord of Winterfell and Robb says that he can't be. Jon's "dragon" is awakened and they have to pull him off of one of the best swordsmen in the watch who has already yielded but Jon is still beating him down.

There, that's an example of the "dragon" in Jon. Also, make a note that Jon's direwolf is not the standard direwolf that the other Stark children have. His is an outcast albino wolf that is mute. That's no normal direwolf.

[K-dog]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend.

So how come Jon has zero dragon in his blood?

In all the prophecies of Dany, why was Jon never mentioned?

Why is Jon such a wolf if he is really half dragon? Name me 1 example where it shows Jon as a dragon. Just 1. I mean 1 tiny example where it shows Jon is even slightly a dragon.

Also, you ask in the bolded portion why Jon is such a wolf. Is he? Wolf's run in packs but Jon voluntarily forsakes his pack at Winterfell and his natural inclination at the wall is to be a loner, not very wolfy. Jon acts a wolf at times but just as some of his siblings act very Tully (Sansa and Robb) at times and pay for it, Jon acts very dragonish at times too. All of the Stark children except Arya show a bit of their mother. Bran is obsessed with the southern knights (like Sansa) but that doesn't demonstrate that he isn't a wolf. Sansa is all Tully but she is also a wolf. It is not a stretch, even if it was true that Jon was all wolf and no dragon, for Jon to be a dragon as well. Look at Arya. She is all wolf but that doesn't mean she isn't also a fish.

[Ciceronian]

Out of curiosity, are there any theories or is there anyone willing to offer an off-the-cuff, reasoned explanation as to the significance of the blue rose on the Wall in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying? Is there anyone at all who can argue this points anywhere than to R+L=J? The blue rose is deliberately and perpetually associated with Lyanna. No one can argue that there is any viable alternate symbolism than Lyanna and ground it in the text.

So if we can't dispute that the blue rose is a red flag (har har) for Lyanna, then we need to ask what the relevance of her literary device showing up at the Wall is. I for one cannot think of a viable explanation aside from Jon. But I welcome one of you to try.

[K-dog]

Out of curiosity, are there any theories or is there anyone willing to offer an off-the-cuff, reasoned explanation as to the significance of the blue rose on the Wall in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying? Is there anyone at all who can argue this points anywhere than to R+L=J? The blue rose is deliberately and perpetually associated with Lyanna. No one can argue that there is any viable alternate symbolism than Lyanna and ground it in the text.

So if we can't dispute that the blue rose is a red flag (har har) for Lyanna, then we need to ask what the relevance of her literary device showing up at the Wall is. I for one cannot think of a viable explanation aside from Jon. But I welcome one of you to try.

I suppose you could argue that the blue rose is a winter rose (iirc) and that the significance is that winter is coming to the wall.

[Kaitscralt]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend

You keep asking people to cite things that are in the wikis, the Citadel, the Hand of the Tower... there are entire pages dedicated to R+L=J, nobody should need to rehash it for you.

Why don't you instead tell us how it is even slightly obvious that Jon is Ned's son, when nearly all textual evidence points to the contrary? Assume that we are stupid or haven't read the books, and just let us know how it is obvious.

[Ciceronian]

You keep asking people to cite things that are in the wikis, the Citadel, the Hand of the Tower... there are entire pages dedicated to R+L=J, nobody should need to rehash it for you.

Why don't you instead tell us how it is even slightly obvious that Jon is Ned's son, when nearly all textual evidence points to the contrary? Assume that we are stupid or haven't read the books, and just let us know how it is obvious.

This, plus the fact that what you're asking for is a little much to expect. This notion that Jon needs to look/act like a dragon (have silver hair? talk about waking the dragon? what are the criteria here) in order for the theory to be remotely viable is pretty ridiculous.

Sure the fact that Jon doesn't have the personality/physical traits of Targaryens adds a level of complication to the theory but--especially considered in tandem with the rest of the evidence that's [bin the text--it doesn't debunk it.

Also, have you considered (I would assume so if you've spent any amount of time digging around, but since you're asking I'll lay it out anyway):

-Jon gets his Stark traits from Lyanna, not Ned, who was said to resemble Ned, whom Arya is said to resemble, who, in turn, Jon is said to resemble.

-The explanation for Lyanna's physical (and arguably personality) traits emerging as the dominant ones in the case of Jon could easily be that Targaryen genes are not incredibly strong to begin with? There's no evidence in the book to suggest they are, especially after generations of in-breeding.

[Gary Robert]

Still not sure why dragons would be nursing... are Dragon's mammals?

[Kaitscralt]

Still not sure why dragons would be nursing... are Dragon's mammals?

They're almost certainly reptilian.

I think the nursing part was unique to Daenerys' situation. She had birthed them a ritual that involved the corpse of her stillborn son Rhaego, who was born half a dragon himself. I think her three egg-born dragons were birthed with some human/mammalian instincts towards Daenerys that will fade as they grow up and become more wild. I don't think she ever mentions feeding them this way again.

Also, the heat of the fire had milk streaming freely from Daenerys, and they may have simply smelled it then saw it as a food source, not done it instinctively.

[SerArthurHeath]

I suppose you could argue that the blue rose is a winter rose (iirc) and that the significance is that winter is coming to the wall.

Yeah, and it has also been used to signify a sexual relationship between Wildings and Starks/Northmen, which Stannis is pressing for at the Wall. Of course, that same signification would also apply to Jon being Lyanna's son and there are a lot of links between the rose and Lyanna. Maybe one of the Tyrells will end up at the wall, but be turned into an ice zombie (hence, winter rose, or blue rose) and take over the universe?

[Xenophon]

Still not sure why dragons would be nursing... are Dragon's mammals?

No, they just like tits. ;)

[SerArthurHeath]

I'll ask again. As I have asked so many times. Like it is obvious that Jon is Ned's son, but hey.... let's pretend.

So how come Jon has zero dragon in his blood?

In all the prophecies of Dany, why was Jon never mentioned?

Why is Jon such a wolf if he is really half dragon? Name me 1 example where it shows Jon as a dragon. Just 1. I mean 1 tiny example where it shows Jon is even slightly a dragon.

Jon's got the same sense of melancholy as Rhaegar, the same sense of self-entitlement as Dany and Viserys. And he makes decisions that Ned and Robb would never be able to make, though once again I accept that is in no way proof that Ned is not his father.

[Ciceronian]

Yeah, and it has also been used to signify a sexual relationship between Wildings and Starks/Northmen, which Stannis is pressing for at the Wall. Of course, that same signification would also apply to Jon being Lyanna's son and there are a lot of links between the rose and Lyanna. Maybe one of the Tyrells will end up at the wall, but be turned into an ice zombie (hence, winter rose, or blue rose) and take over the universe?

Totally the Queen of Thorns. I'm satisfied, theory debunked, case closed.

[TheFrenchFish]

This, plus the fact that what you're asking for is a little much to expect. This notion that Jon needs to look/act like a dragon (have silver hair? talk about waking the dragon? what are the criteria here) in order for the theory to be remotely viable is pretty ridiculous.

Sure the fact that Jon doesn't have the personality/physical traits of Targaryens adds a level of complication to the theory but--especially considered in tandem with the rest of the evidence that's [bin the text--it doesn't debunk it.

Also, have you considered (I would assume so if you've spent any amount of time digging around, but since you're asking I'll lay it out anyway):

-Jon gets his Stark traits from Lyanna, not Ned, who was said to resemble Ned, whom Arya is said to resemble, who, in turn, Jon is said to resemble.

-The explanation for Lyanna's physical (and arguably personality) traits emerging as the dominant ones in the case of Jon could easily be that Targaryen genes are not incredibly strong to begin with? There's no evidence in the book to suggest they are, especially after generations of in-breeding.

Reading the Dunk & Egg story (first one), Dunk encounters several Targaryens. Some have the family characteristic, some none at all, some even have half (partial hair colorings)! So you are correct to say that just because Jon doesn't look like a Targ doesn't discount him from being one. It could be just like when Robert B's ancestor too a Targ wife and they got the Black Hair Blue Eyes.

[Dragonfish]

Out of curiosity, are there any theories or is there anyone willing to offer an off-the-cuff, reasoned explanation as to the significance of the blue rose on the Wall in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying? Is there anyone at all who can argue this points anywhere than to R+L=J? The blue rose is deliberately and perpetually associated with Lyanna. No one can argue that there is any viable alternate symbolism than Lyanna and ground it in the text.

Technically, the blue rose could refer to any Stark in general. There is after all a song about a wildling king kidnapping a Stark daughter then returning her pregnant with a blue rose (what's that song called again? I can't remember). The child of that Stark daughter later goes on to become King in the North (unless this was after the Conquest, can't remember again), and eventually slays his own father in battle. Presumably every current Stark is descended from this one (assuming the song is true), making them all associated with the blue rose that the wildling king left behind.

Of course, I would argue that the blue rose has no intimate association with any modern Starks except for Lyanna, which is why I think the blue rose in the ice wall refers to Jon as Lyanna's child. Also, given that Rhaegar had an affinity for songs and legends, he may have been taking inspiration from this song when he "stole" Lyanna, so it's possible that this apparent red herring still ties back into R+L=J.

However I am pretty certain that this information will never come about in the books. As far as I've read nothing has led me to believe GRRM has any problem leaving such a glaringly loose end open. R+L=J. But it will make no difference on the series outcome.

GRRM has confirmed that we will find out Jon Snow's parentage in future volumes.

A crackpot theory: while writing Thrones, GRRM thought this will be something serious in the story, but later changed his mind.

My crackpot theory: the only character whose story offered significant clues to R+L=J was Ned, and he was indisposed for the remaining volumes.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Howland Reed may also know, maybe he turns up sometime to let us know.

[Gary Robert]

No, they just like tits. ;)

+1!