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R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

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Howland Reed may also know, maybe he turns up sometime to let us know.

I believe GRRM said Howland Reed will appear at some point in the final three or four books. It's seems almost as if he's being used exclusively as a means to reveal Jon's parentage. I wouldn't expect it to be too much longer before we hear something about him though, given the two Northern nobles (Maege Mormont and Jason Mallister) were headed to him at the end of ACoK.

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He never held, or so it seemed to me, any bitterness towards Rhaegar as Robert did when if his sister was kidnapped and raped I think any sensible man would. Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I agree. At one point in the first book when Ned is visiting a brothel to see one of Robert's bastards, he's thinking if Rhaegar had visited that kind of places. And he's answer is something like "somehow I think not". Didn't sounds like man thinking about the guy who raped his sister.

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I wouldn't expect it to be too much longer before we hear something about him though, given the two Northern nobles (Maege Mormont and Jason Mallister) were headed to him at the end of ACoK.

It's Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover, in the middle of ASOS. Jason Mallister is currently a prisoner in his own castle.

I would be very surprised if we see Howland Reed in ADWD.

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It's Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover, in the middle of ASOS. Jason Mallister is currently a prisoner in his own castle.

I would be very surprised if we see Howland Reed in ADWD.

I said hear about, not see. Either way, they set out quite a while ago. I suppose they could just be sitting there in Greywater Watch, but I would expect we hear something about them either towards the end of ADWD or in TWoW. I'm not saying he has to walk out on page and introduce himself and give full exposition as to where he was and who Jon's parents were.

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Yeah, and it has also been used to signify a sexual relationship between Wildings and Starks/Northmen, which Stannis is pressing for at the Wall. Of course, that same signification would also apply to Jon being Lyanna's son and there are a lot of links between the rose and Lyanna. Maybe one of the Tyrells will end up at the wall, but be turned into an ice zombie (hence, winter rose, or blue rose) and take over the universe?

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice and filled the air with sweetness.

I know this is just a fun and not-to-serious exercise in alternative theories but this second part of the vision (hallucination?) is what suggests the blue flower relates to something/one pleasant to Dany who is experiencing it. Some people think Winter has a smell (like pine trees) but I'm guessing the Others and their ice zombies (zombonis-TM TWOP) don't smell too sweet (not even a Tyrell zomboni).

Since the blue flower relates directly to Lyanna and specifically to Lyanna + Rhaegar (and also the old tale of Bael of the Bard which has certain similarities in that the Wildling king steals a Stark maiden and later returns a bastard son whom later becomes Lord), I'm thinking it has to do with a certain bastard son of a Stark maiden who is at the Wall.

Okay, but here's my alt theory: The blue flower growing from the chink of ice represents the Spring that follows the Winter symbolizing victory of the Others and darkness and a return of the warmth and sun and HappyTimes in Westeros. With rainbows and puppies.

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Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

Catelyn was loyal to Winterfell, heart and soul. Ned loved Cat and Cat loved Ned.

Based on the timeline we know of, this is not true at this point in time. Ned and Cat did NOT love each other, yet. Remember, they were wed and almost from the time the vows were completed Ned left her in Winterfell and rode off to fight the rebellion. Several flashbacks reminisce how Ned barely new Cat, even though they had been married.

Cersei, from all accounts is more attractive and seductive than Cat. Cersei tried to throw herself at Ned towards the end of book 1 and he refused. Didn't even entertain the thought. Why turn down someone so attractive? Maybe because of his loyalty to Cat and Robert...The man just never disgraces himself.

Fullstop. Why would Ned taunt Cat with a "pretend bastard" for 15 years if hJon was actually his nephew? It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. We all know what Tywin did to the Targs at KL. We all know the hate and venom Robert had for them. We know Jon Arryn raised the banners of the Vale and started the entire rebellion to defend his former wards and friends AGAINST the Targs. Everything at that time was venomously anti-targ. If Ned rode up to Robert or back to Cat or over to Tywin and said "Hey look at my new nephew! It's Lyanna's son, by way of Rhaegar," the immediate reaction would probably have been "Oh shit, another Targ who could threaten our position! He must be killed".

He made both Jon and Cat suffer because he didn't have a choice. A secret so major like that isn't something you just go tell to a bunch of friends. Ned knew, when his sister died and Rhaegar was killed by Robert there was only one other person in the entire realm who knew about what happened at the Tower of Joy. That would be Ned. I doubt even Howland Reed, who we are waiting on to secure more details as they fought the Kingsguard together there, knows ALL of the details. I can't imagine he was in the room and was around for all of Lyanna's last words to Ned. That being said, even if he was, that means only TWO people alive at the start of the series knew about Jon. And that was because they were both at the ToJ. So of course he isn't going to tell Cat. Dear god, look at how much Cat messed up throughout the series while trying to "help" her family! No point in spreading the word more. Less people that knew, the better as far as Ned was concerned.

We all know, plus Ned knows that Catelyn is hard out for Winterfall. Even if Cat was born at Riverrun, everyone knows she turned into a Winterfell-chick. Cat is so loyal to Winterfell it's not funny. Justifiably so as well. Cat has given birth to 5 children of Winterfell. No wonder she is such a staunch proponent of Winterfell.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with Jon.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

Exactly. He didn't know Cat well at the time, their love had not yet blossomed into what it was at the start of AGoT and so he rightfully didn't trust ANYONE. It was nothing personal against Cat. In this case it was just Ned's promise to Lyanna was greater than Cat's personal feelings.

You also have to believe that 16 year old Lyanna had a baby in her arms and told Ned to take the baby but promise to never anyone who the baby was.

I always pictured the promise to be more of a "Don't tell anyone who his parents are. Raise him, love him and treat him like your own and promise you won't let anyone know our secret. Only tell him once he is of age".

Also, you need to believe that wolf is stronger than dragon and Jon has absolutely no dragon traits.

This is simply nature. My father is 6'5. I'm 5'8. Does that mean because I don't have one of his dominating traits, he can't be my father? Of course not. It just so happens that Lyanna's genes are more dominant in Jon than the Targ genes.

So Jon is Rhaegar's son and one of the three heads of a dragon? lol... like lol.... Jon is a total wolf. He has no traits of dragon what so ever. None. As in zero traits of a dragon. In all povs and every sentence of the book there is zero hint of Jon having any dragon traits. EVER.

What are "dragon traits", may I ask? He doesn't have the Targ likeness. Alright. Thats fine. But what else defines a Targ? What about Aemon on The Wall? He didn't either, from the readers POV. But sure enough, he is a Targ. Jon IS a wolf as well. He was raised as a Stark though. Its the nature vs. nurture argument. His nature is both Stark and Targ. His nurture was PURELY Stark. He doesn't know anything else. He learned all of his honor, beliefs etc etc from his uncle, thinking he was his father. I am sure Jon would act differently if he was raised in Dorne or by one of the Stormlords. So that is all subjective.

I'll stop this post here coz it's getting long, but I mean, come on.... read the books properly, nothing says Jon is a dragon/Targ.

The only mystery here is who was Jon's mother.

What does "read the books properly" even mean? No one here begrudges you your opinion and we rather enjoy this discussion. If people didn't it would be the 13th or whatever consecutive thread that it is. There is no need for you to bash others who disagree with you. People like myself who have read the books 5 times think R+L=J is very plausible. I know there are some that have read the series just as many times that think no way. But there is no need to tell people to read the books "properly". To me that reads "Read and understand the book only as I see it and don't ever disagree with my points and if you do, you clearly have no idea what your doing".

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Yes, probably not. After all, Ned is dead, Lyanna is dead, even Cat is dead (but unfortunately not dead enough). I cannot see how GRRM can make anything significant out of this whole issue after completely ignoring it for 15 years.

Well let me begin with this: of course it is still a real issue, and has implications that could greatly effect Westeros.

Think on this Danny may well be barren, and Targs are hard to come by now. So Jon being Rhaegars bastard could have huge plot implications. Now this is GRRM so I do not expect Jon to ever be king......but it may provide inspiration for Danny to travel to the wall to find the third head of the dragon and run smack into the others.

So while I do not think Jon should (or will be) king......his true parents will be important to his development and growth through the series.

So R+L=J is important.......I won't go into the details of the theory. I am tried of typing the same thing 10 times.

Seriously what other promise would Ned have made Lyanna that he thought about so much? And living his lies for 14 years....what other lie did he live?

Well thats my rant for the day.

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Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

Could be that Lyanna's asked Ned to make sure that no one ever finds out the parentage of Jon Snow. So even wifey is not allowed to know. It's the safest way to keep the secret.

Well didnt Cat release Jaime Lannister to the anger of her son Robb Stark? Never trust someone else with a secret if you want to be 100% sure it wont ever leak.

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I said hear about, not see. Either way, they set out quite a while ago. I suppose they could just be sitting there in Greywater Watch, but I would expect we hear something about them either towards the end of ADWD or in TWoW. I'm not saying he has to walk out on page and introduce himself and give full exposition as to where he was and who Jon's parents were.

Anyone has any idea what Greywater Watch is probably? Apparently it's a moving building, always pictured it as a floating castle-boat along the river :D

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I am sure this has been addressed somewhere, but I have read three or four R+L=J threads, and have not found the answer to my question yet. Please forgive me, as I have not read GOT in about 3 years. I bought the series again, and started to read it, but my Chihuahua puppy ate my copy of GOT and out of sheer laziness just started back reading ACOK...

If I am remembering correctly, didn't Jon burn his hands when defending Lord Mormont from the White Walkers on the wall in GOT. I know they showed this injury in the HBO show, but I could not remember if it was cannon or not. If this is correct, wouldn't this exclude him from being a Targ?

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If I am remembering correctly, didn't Jon burn his hands when defending Lord Mormont from the White Walkers on the wall in GOT. I know they showed this injury in the HBO show, but I could not remember if it was cannon or not. If this is correct, wouldn't this exclude him from being a Targ?

No, not all Targaryens are immune to fire or heat all the time. Otherwise Viserys wouldn't have been killed instantly by the molten gold. Here's the Citadel page that confirms it.

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If I am remembering correctly, didn't Jon burn his hands when defending Lord Mormont from the White Walkers on the wall in GOT. I know they showed this injury in the HBO show, but I could not remember if it was cannon or not. If this is correct, wouldn't this exclude him from being a Targ?

Yes, it happened; no, it doesn't mean anything. Targs are not immune to fire by any means. They may have a higher resistance to hot temperatures, but not immunity. The tragedy at summerhall saw a few Targaryens burned to death. GRRM has confirmed that Dany being Unburnt was a unique event, due to the nature of the magical birth of Dragons.

I believe there was some animated debate on this issue towards the end of thread XXI (two threads ago).

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Did you even read my and Galen M's rebuttals? This post is yet further evidence that you are just an alternate for Popgun.

Yes I did read your post. You said,

No, not all Targaryens are immune to fire or heat all the time. Otherwise Viserys wouldn't have been killed instantly by the molten gold. Here's the Citadel page that confirms it.

I read your post and disagree with it. Your point is that you think R+L=J because even though he has no dragon traits, he is still Rhaegars son because lots of other Targs don't have dragon traits.

I disagree with your points.

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Yes I did read your post. You said,

No, not all Targaryens are immune to fire or heat all the time. Otherwise Viserys wouldn't have been killed instantly by the molten gold. Here's the Citadel page that confirms it.

I read your post and disagree with it. Your point is that you think R+L=J because even though he has no dragon traits, he is still Rhaegars son because lots of other Targs don't have dragon traits.

I disagree with your points.

How can you disagree with my points when they are canon? My source was straight from the author's mouth. Disagreeing with my post is disagreeing with the author.

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I read your post and disagree with it. Your point is that you think R+L=J because even though he has no dragon traits, he is still Rhaegars son because lots of other Targs don't have dragon traits.

First of all, no one ever said that Jon was burnt, Viserys was burnt, therefore Jon is a Targaryen. What we did say was that Dany was the ONLY instant of a Targaryen being immune to fire. Being unburnt is not a Targaryen trait, nor is it something that some ANY Targaryens have. It was a one-time, unique event, where due to the magic of the event, she emerged unburnt. If Dany were to grab some flaming drapes, she would burn her hand. While it doesn't prove RLJ, Jon being burnt certainly doesn't DISPROVE it, either.

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Looks like we're about to start another debate about the Targ's so-called immunity to fire.....

Summerhall... crown of molten gold... the fact that GRRM said that Dany's event was unique....

Can we ever agree that Jon getting burned is NOT a valid point one way or the other for R+L=J?!?!?!?!

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Looks like we're about to start another debate about the Targ's so-called immunity to fire.....

Summerhall... crown of molten gold... the fact that GRRM said that Dany's event was unique....

Can we ever agree that Jon getting burned is NOT a valid point one way or the other for R+L=J?!?!?!?!

Dont forget the King, who died drinking wildfire

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