R + L = J Part XXIII

[Sword in the Morning]

Would just like to mention that I came to the conclusion that R+L=J on my own--I then turned to the internet to see if anyone else thought the same thing.... and lo and behold, it was a pretty big theory.

[LadyMary]

Welcome to the board!

Hi guys, first post. I've read the original thread of this epic and skimmed some of the rest -- alas the size makes it impossible to read fully, and I never saw one question adressed:

Whenever GRRM talks about Jon's hair, IIRC, he says it is "dark". The same is given in asoiaf wiki, and of course on the show Jon's hair is jet black. Now, the typical Stark colouring is brown, for example Arya's hair is always described as "brown" and on the show it is brown too, and we are told that Arya has a strong Lyanna look. We know how important colouring is to the series, and that on the show Jon's parentage is meant to be made "more obvious" -- the use of "dark" in the text, and the direct presentation of Jon's hair as black on the show seems to fit the bill. Now, to me, this throws a spanner in the works for Rhaegar and Lyanna, as white and brown cannot make black whichever way you look at it. If this was previously adressed, could you please point me to the relevant post/text excerpt.

I think this has more to do with the fact that the actor they thought was best to play Jon happens to have hair so dark it looks black on TV. I think Kit Harington is fantastic in the role, so that got the casting right, but apparently they didn't think they needed to lighten his hair because it's "dark" as it's generally described in the books. Of course, some non-book readers think Jon is Robert Baratheon's bastard instead of Ned's (or Lyanna's) as a result, so much being made of Baratheon's "hair of black", but I think it's more about the acting ability and less attention to the physical descriptions from the book. It's like how TVDaenerys and Viserys have normal light blue or blue/green eyes rather than purple/lavender eyes because the real live actors couldn't tolerate the colored contact lenses, and how Otho had blue contacts over brown eyes so they didn't look like the bright blue of the wight in the first scene of the series (in my opinion). Other examples: TVBran's eyes are dark brown, like Jon's, instead of blue. TVArya has light eyes (greenish?) instead of grey and TVNed has blue eyes, not grey. Etc.

Secondly, the bulk of the evidence for Lyanna and Rhaegar, as I read it, is actually evidence for Lyanna alone -- Ned's description of Jon as his blood, rather than son, the blue rose vision, etc. Could somebody provide a summary for evidence that specifically Rhaegar, and not any other man is the father? The only evidence that I got so far, is that Rhaegar is prophecy-obsessed and wanted another child. I could buy into that, I guess, but I see no reason why Rhaegar would want Lyanna specifically to be the mother, and even if he chose Lyanna, why should he abduct her?

Robert and Brandon believed that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and caused her untimely death. Ned told Robert that he (Robert) didn't really know her. Ned later tells Arya that his older brother Brandon and his sister Lyanna had too much of the wolf in them and it lead to their untimely deaths.

Why? Brandon was a hothead who barged into the Red Keep and demanded Rhaegar come out and die, thus enraging the Mad King and leading to Brandon's death as well as Rickard's and 200 other men.

But what about Lyanna? We are told that she would have worn a sword if her father had let her, she was an expert horsewoman and she beat back some bullies with a tourney sword at the tournament at Harrenhal. She was feisty and strong and had a mind of her own.

Why would Rhaegar want her specifically? Well, she was beautiful for one thing - so much that he scandalized everyone by crowning her the Queen of Love and Beauty instead of his own wife, and it's reasonable to assume that she was attracted to him too given her reaction at the same tournament to his beautiful songs. In any case, if Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophesy and his wife was too sickly to give him a third, he'd have to find another mother for one of his children.

It's speculation at this point, but it seems reasonable to theorize that the abduction of Lyanna was more of an elopement between a man who fell in love with a beautiful maiden who could also bear him a child, and the wolf maid who fell in love with the Prince and was also wary of Robert for his reputed womanizing. But let's say it was an abduction - if Rhaegar could manage to get away with it given Lyanna's temperament, all the way from Winterfell (presumably) to Dorne without someone knowing? Well, it had to be someone and why not Lyanna whom he clearly was attracted to and probably was in love with?

Here's what jars with me: the war was started, as far as we know, because of Lyanna's abduction and the immediate reaction the abduction caused. Rhaegar is not a moron, he knew people would look for Lyanna, he could easily guess that after crowning her QoLaB, he would be under suspicion and that Lyanna's relatives would come to Aerys to demand justice. Again, Rhaegar is not a moron, he must have known that whatever Aerys's reactions to demands for justice against his own family would have been, they were near-certain to be exceedingly agressive and/or insulting. Moreover, should the child have been born and war avoided, what life was in store for him? Viserys would have wanted him dead. Martells would have wanted him dead. Starks would have been offended and probably want at least Rhaegar dead. All the other people would not have cared for this child one bit, which means that they would have been eager to serve any of the above in killing him. Finally, we know that Rhaegar had plans to unseat Aerys -- why not do that first, what exactly made Lyanna so special that all his plans, and indeed the Seven Kingdoms themselves, had to be gambled, simply to have her as the mother right now?

This is the biggest puzzlement for me as well, as Rhaegar was not apparently a reckless person or crazy like his father. Nevertheless, it's not in dispute that Lyanna was with Rhaegar during that time so why did he take such a risk? My guess? Apparently he took the prophesy seriously as he did everything else and if that's so, then maybe he thought saving the world was more important than the short term political damage caused by running off with Lord Stark's daughter, being unfaithful to his wife and pissing off his cousin Robert.

Now, I guess criticising the Rhaegar theory would be pointless, if there was no alternative, but as it happens, Westeros does not lack black-haired prickly sods, who are known to travel everywhere, take part in tourneys and stick their cocks into everything that moves. Which makes me wonder exactly what was Oberyn Martell doing just before the war? Wouldn't he see fucking Lyanna as just the way to payback Rhaegar for the QoLaB crowning? And why did Lyanna end up in Dorne, of all places?

I'm persuaded by the evidence for R+L=J, but it's not a flawless theory... more of a puzzle with pieces missing. I'm sure that in time all the pieces will be revealed, and perhaps along the way there will be pieces that look like they fit but are revealed as false pieces.

As for Oberyn, that's a fascinating idea. He certainly seemed to be prolific at producing bastard children, but his bastards resembled their mothers. It should be noted that he never raped anyone as far as we know. Did he? It was my impression that he was more likely to seduce women. Supposing the theory that Oberyn seduced Lyanna and fathered his only bastard son on her, then why were the three Kings Guardsmen at the Tower of Joy where Lyanna was being kept, if she was being kept by a Dornish Prince to spite Rhaegar? The Kings Guard guard the royal family they don't play jailer to the victim of enemies of the royal family.

Why did Lyanna end up in Dorne? Good question. My theory is that it had to do with the fact that Dornishman Arthur Dayne was not just one of Rhaegar's KG but also his closest friend. And Dorne was as far from the North as one could get on the continent and probably the last place anyone would look for Lyanna Stark.

[Silverin]

Hi guys, first post. I've read the original thread of this epic and skimmed some of the rest -- alas the size makes it impossible to read fully, and I never saw one question adressed:

Whenever GRRM talks about Jon's hair, IIRC, he says it is "dark". The same is given in asoiaf wiki, and of course on the show Jon's hair is jet black. Now, the typical Stark colouring is brown, for example Arya's hair is always described as "brown" and on the show it is brown too, and we are told that Arya has a strong Lyanna look. We know how important colouring is to the series, and that on the show Jon's parentage is meant to be made "more obvious" -- the use of "dark" in the text, and the direct presentation of Jon's hair as black on the show seems to fit the bill. Now, to me, this throws a spanner in the works for Rhaegar and Lyanna, as white and brown cannot make black whichever way you look at it. If this was previously adressed, could you please point me to the relevant post/text excerpt.

Secondly, the bulk of the evidence for Lyanna and Rhaegar, as I read it, is actually evidence for Lyanna alone -- Ned's description of Jon as his blood, rather than son, the blue rose vision, etc. Could somebody provide a summary for evidence that specifically Rhaegar, and not any other man is the father? The only evidence that I got so far, is that Rhaegar is prophecy-obsessed and wanted another child. I could buy into that, I guess, but I see no reason why Rhaegar would want Lyanna specifically to be the mother, and even if he chose Lyanna, why should he abduct her?

Now, I guess criticising the Rhaegar theory would be pointless, if there was no alternative, but as it happens, Westeros does not lack black-haired prickly sods, who are known to travel everywhere, take part in tourneys and stick their cocks into everything that moves. Which makes me wonder exactly what was Oberyn Martell doing just before the war? Wouldn't he see fucking Lyanna as just the way to payback Rhaegar for the QoLaB crowning? And why did Lyanna end up in Dorne, of all places?

Hy, welcome.

Gotta say nice theory. And good observation about Jon's hair. Ned's hair is brown (AGoT, first Bran chapter) in the books as well and so is Arya's (though suddenly I am not sure, I always pictured Arya with brown haired). Jon's hair is dark wich means either very dark brown or black. By the way, Jon resembles Ned and Arya in the longfacedSrtark department. When talking about Jon resembling Ned, they talk about the face. I don't remember though wether it was said what is Lyanna's hair color, or Benjen's, or Brandon's. But among the other Starks there is really no dark haired we know of. I am not sure about Arya having hair like Lyanna. I remember that her personality is like her and her face.

Here's what jars with me: the war was started, as far as we know, because of Lyanna's abduction and the immediate reaction the abduction caused. Rhaegar is not a moron, he knew people would look for Lyanna, he could easily guess that after crowning her QoLaB, he would be under suspicion and that Lyanna's relatives would come to Aerys to demand justice. Again, Rhaegar is not a moron, he must have known that whatever Aerys's reactions to demands for justice against his own family would have been, they were near-certain to be exceedingly agressive and/or insulting. Moreover, should the child have been born and war avoided, what life was in store for him? Viserys would have wanted him dead. Martells would have wanted him dead. Starks would have been offended and probably want at least Rhaegar dead. All the other people would not have cared for this child one bit, which means that they would have been eager to serve any of the above in killing him. Finally, we know that Rhaegar had plans to unseat Aerys -- why not do that first, what exactly made Lyanna so special that all his plans, and indeed the Seven Kingdoms themselves, had to be gambled, simply to have her as the mother right now?

Thank you, though I think the R+L=J theory one of the most possible ones there are some things in it that always bothered me.

As you said this. Not to mention by that time there is actually 3 Targ children:Vyseris, Rhaenys, Aegon

Now why did he think so far there is only two head of the dragon? Since Rhaenys definietly died, we must be sure that even thinking that she is part of it is definietly wrong. Not to mention there was a time before where he falsly misinterpreted a prophecy (He thought he is the Prince who was Promised), so how can he be sure that now he is right (especially since he definietly was not, at least not about the other heads). Not to mention so sure that he is right that he does not mind risking very serious conflicts that could easily lead to civil war. So in my head the Rhaegar was not mad/moron statment is starting to shake.

Now lets see another one. The tourney where the possible R+L relationship begann is in Harrenhal. Do we know how much time was between this and Lyanna's abduction?

The reason why I ask this is as above said Arya is the one who has Lyanna's personality. And she is not the type to fall in love at first sight, and not in a short time either. That is Sansa. This always sort of bothered me as well.

EDIT: About the Oberyn thing and why was Lyanna in Dorne, I didnt really come up with anything. So now we have another possible blackhaired father.

[Dragonfish]

Thank you, though I think the R+L=J theory one of the most possible ones there are some things in it that always bothered me.

As you said this. Not to mention by that time there is actually 3 Targ children:Vyseris, Rhaenys, Aegon

Now why did he think so far there is only two head of the dragon? Since Rhaenys definietly died, we must be sure that even thinking that she is part of it is definietly wrong. Not to mention there was a time before where he falsly misinterpreted a prophecy (He thought he is the Prince who was Promised), so how can he be sure that now he is right (especially since he definietly was not, at least not about the other heads). Not to mention so sure that he is right that he does not mind risking very serious conflicts that could easily lead to civil war. So in my head the Rhaegar was not mad/moron statment is starting to shake.

We don't really know the full context surrounding Lyanna's "abduction," so I don't think any of us are really in a position to judge how "crazy" or "stupid" Rhaegar must have been to run off with her (remember how negatively we used to think of Jaime's killing Aerys before we discovered the full context behind his actions?). Besides, even Maester Aemon seemed to be concerned that the prophecy be fulfilled, and he seems fairly level-headed.

Now lets see another one. The tourney where the possible R+L relationship begann is in Harrenhal. Do we know how much time was between this and Lyanna's abduction?

The tourney at Harrenhal took place about a year or two before the Rebellion.

[hart]

300 years of inbreeding among the Targ's didn't do their sanity credentials any good, IMO.

[Dragonfish]

300 years of inbreeding among the Targ's didn't do their sanity credentials any good, IMO.

Inbreeding exacerbates positive traits as well as negative traits. Aerys' grandfather, Aegon V, was considered a great king, probably the last great king, in fact. And Barristan says that Rhaegar was the best of all the Targaryens, even better than Aegon V. That based on other evidence leads me to believe that Rhaegar was not crazy, at least not in the "Mad King" sense.

[B4cchus]

Hey all, thanks for the replies.

Regarding Jon's hair -- I understand the show is not canon, but I was always wondering about this ambiguity left by GRRM. If in four books to date, Jon's hair color is not explicitly mentioned, but is only referred to as "dark", whilst at the same time pretty much every other character gets a very precise description of their hair, to me looks strange. I was sort of hoping for somebody to point out that I was wrong, and that in fact GRRM does mention a specific colouring for Jon. Also, even though the show is not canon, hair colour is the most easily changeable thing, routinely adjusted for film purposes -- neither Dinklage nor Heady are blond, but were made blond. The fact that the show kept Jon black-haired, having full knowledge of the importance both of colouring and of the question Jon's parentage makes me wonder. Regarding Rhaegar passing on black hair genes through Martell ancestry -- this is possible, as we do not know how genetics works in ASoIaF, but in our world, if you carry dark-haired alleles, you would be dark haired, to be blond you must carry light-haired alleles only, and thus can only pass these on.

Now to Rhaegar -- the choice of Lyanna is interesting not only due to her person, but also due to timing: we do not know what happened in the months between Harrenhall and their disappearance, and this would be the key period, supposedly when the two people who felt a spark jump between them would be getting to know each other. Yet no-one has commented on whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were seen together in those months, or were even in the same locale. Nor do we have any first-hand statements from people who could confirm that Rhaegar felt strongly enough towards Lyanna to dishonour his marriage. I agree that timelines fit Rhaegar as a possible father for Jon, and they do disqualify some potential fathers, like Robert, but they do not disqualify every man in Westeros (apart from Rhaegar). In the chaos of the war Lyanna, wherever she was, could have gotten into any old mess with unpleasant consequences, and there were, supposedly, men around her. Let us also consider the romantic eloping theory -- we are told Lyanna is headstrong and boisterous. There is a war happening all around her, because of her, involving her family. Can we reasonably believe that all that time she is ensconsced in a tower, lovey-doveying with a dashing knight, whom she only recently met? Seems unlikely. Yet Rhaegar as a kidnapper and rapist also seems to go against descriptions of his character. Until we know what Lyanna was doing after Harrenhall and exactly what news reached Brandon and caused him to barge into the throne room, I don't think we have much to go on that would point specifically to Rhaegar being involved at this stage. (On a side note -- why exactly was it, that Aerys demanded Robert's head alongside Eddard's for Brandon's actions?) We do know that Rhaegar was definitely involved later -- only he knew of the Tower of Joy, and only he could have summoned the Kingsguard to defend Lyanna, but evidence of his earlier involvement, currently seems to be thin.

Finally, Oberyn -- I do not actually believe in this strongly, but given the black/dark haired conundrum I think it is at least worth showing that Oberyn is no less probable a candidate:

1) Black haired

2) Known to travel, to be violently vengeful and promiscous

3) Known to have been angered at the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhall

4) His bastard children are known to take their looks strongly after their mothers

5) Unknown location at the time of the Rebellion, could be anywhere

6) Strong and trained enough to force himself on Lyanna

Possible story:

Oberyn attempts to dishonour Lyanna much like she was honoured by Rhaegar -- given her reported agression it would not be hard to draw her out to come to Dorne. He fights, defeats and rapes Lyanna, maybe injuring her so severely as to make it impossible for her to travel. Lyanna is rescued by Rhaegar, who takes her to the nearest known hideout -- the Tower of Joy, leaves Lyanna to be nursed back to health under the protection of Kingsguard and rides north. This fits better with Jon's mysterious hair colour, with the lack of any real motivation on the part of Rhaegar to dishonour his marriage, and most importantly it explains why Rhaegar rode from the south alone, rather than try to at least mitigate the conflict by presenting Lyanna.

As far as I know, there is nothing which would contradict such a set of events, and we really have no factual basis for preferring the Rhaegar story over the Oberyn story. Albeit, I personally feel the Rhaegar story more likely. Oberyn's story would be more in keeping with the general atmosphere of ASoIaF, though -- vengeance, misunderstood events, rapes, etc.

[B4cchus]

The tourney at Harrenhal took place about a year or two before the Rebellion.

The tourney was in 281, as Eddard at the time was 18 and he is 35 at the start of the series. The disappearance took place in early 282, so it was only a few months between the two.

[iheartseverus]

B4cchus, interesting hypothesis, but how does Oberyn as Jon's father, Lyanna's rapist answer:

1. Why Ned has hidden Jon's parentage from Robert and even from his own wife, and the rest of the world, for that matter, all these years.

2. Why would Ned have not taken powerful and never-ending vengance against Oberyn long ago? One doesn't rape the teen daughter of a great and proud House like Stark with impunity.

[Dragonfish]

Also, even though the show is not canon, hair colour is the most easily changeable thing, routinely adjusted for film purposes -- neither Dinklage nor Heady are blond, but were made blond. The fact that the show kept Jon black-haired, having full knowledge of the importance both of colouring and of the question Jon's parentage makes me wonder.

I wouldn't read too much into this. The producers most likely went for any good actor with dark hair; it makes sense that they didn't want to limit themselves too much. They probably didn't make Kit Harrington's hair a different color because they didn't think it mattered that much. Hell, Jaime's hair is almost brown in some cases, and his hair color is a major plot point. Besides, I'm not sure it's really possible to make black hair into a dark brown color.

Let us also consider the romantic eloping theory -- we are told Lyanna is headstrong and boisterous. There is a war happening all around her, because of her, involving her family. Can we reasonably believe that all that time she is ensconsced in a tower, lovey-doveying with a dashing knight, whom she only recently met? Seems unlikely.

Where could she have gone? Winterfell was a thousand miles away, her brother's army was across a vast war zone. And by the time she heard about hostilities, she was likely already pregnant, making travel even more perilous.

1) Black haired...

4) His bastard children are known to take their looks strongly after their mothers

Wait, doesn't number 4 make number 1 irrelevant, and make this theory more unlikely?

This fits better with Jon's mysterious hair colour, with the lack of any real motivation on the part of Rhaegar to dishonour his marriage, and most importantly it explains why Rhaegar rode from the south alone, rather than try to at least mitigate the conflict by presenting Lyanna.

Where are you getting that Rhaegar had no motivation to run off with Lyanna?

As far as I know, there is nothing which would contradict such a set of events, and we really have no factual basis for preferring the Rhaegar story over the Oberyn story.

Sure we do. It doesn't really make sense that Ned would keep it secret during this time if it turned out she was raped by Oberyn. He has no need to protect Jon from Robert if he's not the product of a Targ. And every indication we've been given about the Tower of Joy is that it's a secret place that even Varys didn't know about. Seems unlikely that Oberyn knew where it was.

The tourney was in 281, as Eddard at the time was 18 and he is 35 at the start of the series. The disappearance took place in early 282, so it was only a few months between the two.

According to this SSM, the year of the false spring (which is when the tourney at Harrnehal occurred) was about a year or two before the start of the Rebellion.

EDIT--Also, I'm not sure where you're getting that the disappearance took place in early 282. Do you have a source for that? In any event, if Ned was 18 during the tourney at Harrenahl, and he's 35 at the start of the series, then that means there's a 17-year gap between the tourney and the start of the series. Since the rebellion occurred 14 years prior, that means there's a 3-year gap between the tourney and the Rebellion. If that 3-year gap begins at the tourney and ends at the tail-end of the Rebellion, then that places the tourney at 2 years before the beginning of the Rebellion, which is perfectly consistent with the SSM I posted above.

[iheartseverus]

I think my greatest objection to the Oberyn as Lyanna's baby-daddy, is that it stretches the known facts and hints into all sorts of contortions simply to try to prove that Rhaegar is not the daddy. In the Oberyn theory, yes, Rhaegar is there with Lyanna, yes they have some sort of kindly-friendly-close-helpful-whatever relationship, yes Rhaegar is known to be obsessed with the prophecy and believes he must father a third child, yes, Rhaeghar orders his Kingsguard to guard Lyanna during her (presumed) childbirthing ordeal, and yes, Lyanna clings to a circlet of dried blue roses while she's dying, the same roses, again presumably, that Rhaegar gave her so long ago. BUT, in the midst of all that--Oberyen's actually the daddy. Huh? Why? Occam's Razor applies here, I think.

Kudos to B4cchus for a very nicely written theory, but to me, the more I think about it, the less it works.

[SFDanny]

The tourney was in 281, as Eddard at the time was 18 and he is 35 at the start of the series. The disappearance took place in early 282, so it was only a few months between the two.

You may be right, but this is not an established fact. It certainly fits within the various possibilities.

[hart]

Inbreeding exacerbates positive traits as well as negative traits. Aerys' grandfather, Aegon V, was considered a great king, probably the last great king, in fact. And Barristan says that Rhaegar was the best of all the Targaryens, even better than Aegon V. That based on other evidence leads me to believe that Rhaegar was not crazy, at least not in the "Mad King" sense.

Unfortunately, there's no mention on the wiki regarding who Aerys II's mother is. Nor is there any information on who Aegon married. Aegon V was the son of Maekar, who was the son of Daeron II and Myriah Martell, and so was only two generations away from "external" genetic input.

If its possible to go from BEST KING EVER to the potential for Mad King Aerys behaviour in just 2-3 generations, then introducing a single external genetic variant (the Martell's) can have a dramatic difference down the line.

I'd put it that Rhaegar wasn't cruel like his father, but was probably a bit batty, or at least prone to acts of whimsy, especially given his reported obsession with the prophecy. These kings aren't like common people.

[Silverin]

Sure we do. It doesn't really make sense that Ned would keep it secret during this time if it turned out she was raped by Oberyn. He has no need to protect Jon from Robert if he's not the product of a Targ. And every indication we've been given about the Tower of Joy is that it's a secret place that even Varys didn't know about. Seems unlikely that Oberyn knew where it was.

It does do the exact same sense. The reason why Robert hates the Targs is exactly because he thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna. If it turns out Oberyn raped Lyanna he would hate the Martells the same, and Jon still would be the son of his beloved Lyanna and someone he hates.

We don't really know the full context surrounding Lyanna's "abduction," so I don't think any of us are really in a position to judge how "crazy" or "stupid" Rhaegar must have been to run off with her (remember how negatively we used to think of Jaime's killing Aerys before we discovered the full context behind his actions?). Besides, even Maester Aemon seemed to be concerned that the prophecy be fulfilled, and he seems fairly level-headed.

Yet you didnt answer me, how can Rhaegar be sure he is actually fullfilling a prophecy. Since it alrady happened with him that he thought he is doing that then it turns out to be all in his head.

[Dragonfish]

Unfortunately, there's no mention on the wiki regarding who Aerys II's mother is. Nor is there any information on who Aegon married. Aegon V was the son of Maekar, who was the son of Daeron II and Myriah Martell, and so was only two generations away from "external" genetic input.

If its possible to go from BEST KING EVER to the potential for Mad King Aerys behaviour in just 2-3 generations, then introducing a single external genetic variant (the Martell's) can have a dramatic difference down the line.

I'd put it that Rhaegar wasn't cruel like his father, but was probably a bit batty, or at least prone to acts of whimsy, especially given his reported obsession with the prophecy. These kings aren't like common people.

Yes, but notice what I said at the beginning of my post: inbreeding exacerbates positive traits as well as negative ones. It's entirely possible that Rhaegar represented the "positive" side of inbreeding rather than the negative one. Certainly his sister has shown no signs of madness, despite going through much of the same trials as her clearly insane brother. Just because several Targs have been crazy doesn't mean they're all crazy.

Also, you haven't really addressed the fact that Barristan, a person who knew Rhaegar, considered him to be an even better Targ than Aegon V. While your argument from genetics might hold sway in the absence of this evidence, it doesn't really convince me in light of Barristan's statements.

EDIT--Also, despite the fact that Daeron II married a Martell, his grandson, Aerion, who was Aegon's brother, also had fits of madness. That sort of weakens your point that it may have been the Martell blood that made Aegon a great king.

It does do the exact same sense. The reason why Robert hates the Targs is exactly because he thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna. If it turns out Oberyn raped Lyanna he would hate the Martells the same, and Jon still would be the son of his beloved Lyanna and someone he hates.

Maybe. But none of this really explains why Ned has literally no thoughts regarding the Martells, even as he thinks about Jon or Lyanna. And it still doesn't make sense that Oberyn would know where the Tower of Joy was, but Varys or the king wouldn't. So really, there are still plenty of problems with the theory.

Yet you didnt answer me, how can Rhaegar be sure he is actually fullfilling a prophecy. Since it alrady happened with him that he thought he is doing that then it turns out to be all in his head.

I didn't answer that question because it's not even something that's in question. Rhaegar believed his son would fulfill the prophecy. This is fact. We know this from the House of the Undying scene, and from Maester Aemon's remarks on how he became "convinced" that his son Aegon was the PWWP. Sure, Rhaegar once believed he was the PWWP, but he voluntarily changed his mind on the matter. It didn't "turn out to be all in his head," he just decided that he was mistaken. So I don't really see what your point is.

EDIT--Though I suppose if you wanted to know what gave Rhaegar the idea that Aegon was the PWWP, the answer is simple: he saw a red comet on the day of his son's conception, and believed that to be the "bleeding star" referenced in the prophecies.

[Galen M]

It does do the exact same sense. The reason why Robert hates the Targs is exactly because he thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna. If it turns out Oberyn raped Lyanna he would hate the Martells the same, and Jon still would be the son of his beloved Lyanna and someone he hates.

Ah, but it's the Targaryen's claim that he truly fears. If it were Oberyn Martell, I doubt Robert would try to exterminate the whole House Martell. He'd stop after killing Oberyn. If RLJ holds, then Jon has some claim to the throne, so Robert would have reason to fear him and likely have him killed. Trust me, Oberyn Martell's bastard isn't in danger of rallying any armies to reclaim the Iron Throne.

[Str1fe5]

Hi guys, first post.

The point I keep coming back to with the R+S=J theory is what other plausible reason was there for Ned to be so secretive about Jon's mother? There could be some reason that is completely out of the blue (like Littlefinger orchestrating Sansa's escape), but it just never made a ton of sense to me why Ned would keep talk of who Jon's mother is so close mouthed if it wasn't for a really good reason. Also some of the posters in this particular thread seem to be assuming that Ned is not the father and that Lyanna is the mother, and are questioning whether Rhaegar was the father. Well if Lyanna had Jon by somebody without Targaryen blood, why in the world would Ned claim Jon as his SON and not his bastard nephew?

[Dragonfish]

Hi guys, first post.

Welcome to the board, Str1fe5.

Also some of the posters in this particular thread seem to be assuming that Ned is not the father and that Lyanna is the mother, and are questioning whether Rhaegar was the father. Well if Lyanna had Jon by somebody without Targaryen blood, why in the world would Ned claim Jon as his SON and not his bastard nephew?

I'm a bit confused by this question. Are you asking what good reason Ned would have for claiming Jon is his son if a Targaryen was not his father?

[hart]

Welcome to the board, Str1fe5.

I'm a bit confused by this question. Are you asking what good reason Ned would have for claiming Jon is his son if a Targaryen was not his father?

I think that's it exactly. And, to answer his question, I don't think there is one. I suppose he could be trying to protect her honour at the cost of his own... but that raises other questions.

Is it actually common knowledge (at least among the noble caste) that Rhaegar raped Lyanna? Robert certainly thought so.

Also, I concede the point about genetics and Rhaegar being mad due to inbreeding. But I still think he was a BIT loopy in the end, albeit not Aerys crazy.

[Dragonfish]

Is it actually common knowledge (at least among the noble caste) that Rhaegar raped Lyanna? Robert certainly thought so.

I don't think we're ever given any indication what the noble caste as a whole believes happened. Most likely some think she was raped, and others think she went willingly, and whichever story they believe probably depends on which side of the war they fought on.

Also, I concede the point about genetics and Rhaegar being mad due to inbreeding. But I still think he was a BIT loopy in the end, albeit not Aerys crazy.

Perhaps. Aerys apparently had promise and didn't go batty until after the Defiance of Duskendale, so I suppose it's possible that something similar started happening to Rhaegar. However, the thing that keeps me from endorsing this point of view is the fact that Rhaegar wanted to depose Aerys when the war was over. That sort of thing sounds like something he would do only once he fully accepted that his father was too far gone; it doesn't feel very consistent with the theory that Rhaegar was crazy (even if only a little crazy).