R + L = J Part XXIII

[The White Wolf]

Well, my overall point was that the direwolf doesn't indicate that Jon is Ned's son. I think he has a wolf simply because he's a Stark in every way that counts. Sansa wasn't, at least not at the beginning of the series, which is why she lost her wolf.

Yea, I've thought of that as well, and I do agree with you more than with what I posted, I just felt like throwing the theory out there :P

[ADB]

Why do people find it hard to imagine that Eddard couldn't trust Catelyn to keep the secret? They barely knew each other at that point, and almost certainly didn't love each other.

There's also another couple very good reasons for him to never have told Cat or even Jon himself. A secret you don't know, you can't give away, even by accident. A momentary indiscretion, a poorly executed lie when asked who Jon's mother is, getting drunk and referring to Ned as your uncle, even a tiny little thing could give away the game. And on top of that, if it were found out, anyone who shared in the secret would also be at risk of reprisal. By keeping it to himself, Ned both lessened the chance of it getting out, and shielded his family from being co-conspirators in case he was caught.

Also, something else I haven't noticed much here is the other side of the coin about why Ned would stay quiet. Yes, if it were found out, Robert would probably probably have a raging intent to kill Jon, and would probably be pissed as hell at Ned for concealing it. But if the speculation is right that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly--as suggested by the roses and what her attitude would have to have been toward Jon--then the knowledge that the woman Robert loved didn't just get kidnapped, she dumped him for the man he hated most in the world, would probably destroy Robert. Think about it--even fifteen years later, deep down he's still miserable and pining for Lyanna, never able to let it go, drowning the hate and loss in wine and wenches. Not to mention the issue of undermining the entire cause of the rebellion that put Robert on the throne.

By taking responsibility on himself, Ned protects both his nephew from being murdered, and his best friend from a second heartbreak worse than death. A course of action that is entirely consistent with his nature right up to the end, sacrificing his own honor and reputation in a false confession in order to try and protect his daughters.

[Dragonfish]

By keeping it to himself, Ned both lessened the chance of it getting out, and shielded his family from being co-conspirators in case he was caught.

This is a pretty good point, actually. By neglecting to tell his family about Jon's true parentage, Ned is keeping them from being complicit in his own treason. Not only does that give them plausible deniability in the event the truth is found out, it also prevents them from having to make the same difficult choice between honor and family that Ned had to make. Interesting.

[ADB]

However, the thing that keeps me from endorsing this point of view is the fact that Rhaegar wanted to depose Aerys when the war was over. That sort of thing sounds like something he would do only once he fully accepted that his father was too far gone;

Like if his father had started burning people to death in the throne room? That would probably do it...

We don't really know the full context surrounding Lyanna's "abduction," so I don't think any of us are really in a position to judge how "crazy" or "stupid" Rhaegar must have been to run off with her (remember how negatively we used to think of Jaime's killing Aerys before we discovered the full context behind his actions?). Besides, even Maester Aemon seemed to be concerned that the prophecy be fulfilled, and he seems fairly level-headed.

Well put. After all, if you think about it, there was no really GOOD reason the Lyanna Affair should have gone beyond the level of simply being a bit of a scandal. The only reason it went further than that was a case of unstoppable force meets immovable object: Brandon's wolf temper plus Aerys' bugf--k craziness resulting in the deaths of Brandon, Lord Rickard, Rickard's 200-man escort, and then the execution orders for Ned and Robert.

And yeah, if Ashara or Wylla were the mother Ned could easily have retrieved Jon when he returned Dawn, but when exactly would he have been able to conceive Jon with either of them?

I can't remember where/how I got this impression, so I'm not sure if there's anything in the text to support it, but it had been my assumption that Ashara Dayne had been the one who told Ned where to find the Tower of Joy, so that he could find his sister. Maybe in the belief that at that point the war was lost, so if they got Lyanna back it might preclude any further violence, or just because she felt for Ned's desire to find his sister. She could plausibly have known it's location, since her brother had gone there, and I can't recall any other way that they would have found it. Hence her subsequent suicide being partly out of grief that she unintentionally got her brother killed. And Ned's particularly hostile reaction to the rumor that she was Jon's mother, since he would feel some guilt that her helping him resulted in the same.

[hart]

You know, I think it would be even more interesting if no one in the books ever realises or figures out Jon's parentage, and instead it's completely ignored - just another way for GRRM to subvert fantasy tropes.

[Wik]

You know, I think it would be even more interesting if no one in the books ever realises or figures out Jon's parentage, and instead it's completely ignored - just another way for GRRM to subvert fantasy tropes.

GRRM has said the end of the story will not be all peaches and cream. This, however, would be unusually cruel, much more so than a "melancholy" ending. It's a loose end that seems to be pretty important. If he never reveals this info, why ever plant the seeds?

[iheartseverus]

GRRM has said the end of the story will not be all peaches and cream. This, however, would be unusually cruel, much more so than a "melancholy" ending. It's a loose end that seems to be pretty important. If he never reveals this info, why ever plant the seeds?

Agree. That would be deliberately...tricksy and 'heh, heh, ain't I too, too clever' in the most annoying possible way. GRRM's too smart, too sophisticated a writer to introduce Chekhov's gun and then disregard Chekhov's gun.

[knownothing]

Hello, first time poster here. I admittedly read the series only after the HBO show started (after watching Ep1) and could not put the books down. I am on my second read of GOT and the rest again prior to ADWD's release. I put together the R+L+J prior to finding Westeros and other sites and was excited to see it is such a hot topic. Not that I don't believe there couldn't be another answer to Jon's parentage (such as Aerys+L=J) but i feel strongly Ned is not Jon's father.

My question is really more on a general note in regards to Lyanna's death. I have gone back and read all of the threads I could find on this topic but cannot find an answer. I do think someone asked a similar question on one of the VERY old threads so forgive me if it has been dealt with before!

What is the general belief surrounding HOW Lyanna died? Obviously we know that there was a bed of blood, etc. We know that most people believe she was kidnapped and then the rest of the events unfold. But what does the rest of Westeros think happened to her in the TOJ? They cannot all think that she had a baby and died; if that was so we would have no mystery surrounding the parentage of Jon Snow. It would be too obvious that the baby Ned showed up with was not his.

So, how, and of what , did she die from? Is that ever explained and I have just missed it?

[Wik]

Hello, first time poster here. I admittedly read the series only after the HBO show started (after watching Ep1) and could not put the books down. I am on my second read of GOT and the rest again prior to ADWD's release. I put together the R+L+J prior to finding Westeros and other sites and was excited to see it is such a hot topic. Not that I don't believe there couldn't be another answer to Jon's parentage (such as Aerys+L=J) but i feel strongly Ned is not Jon's father.

My question is really more on a general note in regards to Lyanna's death. I have gone back and read all of the threads I could find on this topic but cannot find an answer. I do think someone asked a similar question on one of the VERY old threads so forgive me if it has been dealt with before!

What is the general belief surrounding HOW Lyanna died? Obviously we know that there was a bed of blood, etc. We know that most people believe she was kidnapped and then the rest of the events unfold. But what does the rest of Westeros think happened to her in the TOJ? They cannot all think that she had a baby and died; if that was so we would have no mystery surrounding the parentage of Jon Snow. It would be too obvious that the baby Ned showed up with was not his.

So, how, and of what , did she die from? Is that ever explained and I have just missed it?

There seem to be two camps: Camp 1 which is that she died from complications of giving birth to Jon (Pool of blood fever etc etc). Camp 2 is that she was raped by Rhaegar (assuming R+L=J) and that rape was how Jon was unwillingly conceived. It seems that Robert is the only major character we get to hear from on the subject that thinks she was raped by Rhaegar. Certainly there could be others but it is hard to pinpoint who is in what camp because most of the details we have are flashbacks and dreams. Not alot of dialogue or other avenues to explore what "X" person thinks happened.

Also, welcome to the community, always good to see new faces! :thumbsup:

[Galen M]

There seem to be two camps: Camp 1 which is that she died from complications of giving birth to Jon (Pool of blood fever etc etc). Camp 2 is that she was raped by Rhaegar (assuming R+L=J) and that rape was how Jon was unwillingly conceived. It seems that Robert is the only major character we get to hear from on the subject that thinks she was raped by Rhaegar. Certainly there could be others but it is hard to pinpoint who is in what camp because most of the details we have are flashbacks and dreams. Not alot of dialogue or other avenues to explore what "X" person thinks happened.

Also, welcome to the community, always good to see new faces! :thumbsup:

No, I believe that he is asking what people in Westeros believe happened to Lyanna. I doubt anyone in-universe believes she died giving birth, so what is the common consensus. Robert seems to believe that Rhaegar killed Lyanna.

[knownothing]

No, I believe that he is asking what people in Westeros believe happened to Lyanna. I doubt anyone in-universe believes she died giving birth, so what is the common consensus. Robert seems to believe that Rhaegar killed Lyanna.

Bigpop, thank you for the welcome! Galen M is correct that my question is in regards to what the rest of the people of Westeros think. I do appreciate your confirming the "2Camps" theories for me!

I seem to recall that Rhaegar was blamed for her death, but never in any concrete way. Does that make sense? I haven't found any discussion about this topic, aside from the theories on the TOJ events from the point of view of READERS, who know way more than most characters in the story.

[Queen of Everything]

Agree. That would be deliberately...tricksy and 'heh, heh, ain't I too, too clever' in the most annoying possible way. GRRM's too smart, too sophisticated a writer to introduce Chekhov's gun and then disregard Chekhov's gun.

I don't know about that. Y'all seem to have 85% of the evidence, and if the remaining 3 books give the last 15%, we don't really need anyone to come out and confirm that R+L=J.

[Black Wizard]

Oh, well in that case lets close the thread down and end the theory. This evidence wasn't pointed out before. If he doesn't have Targ eyes, everything else pales in comparison and the other evidence is pointless. I mean, what child DOESN'T have the same exact eye color of their dad. Thanks for sharing. I guess i'm moving onto H+S=J (Hotpie + Samwell= Jon). Lets talk about what merit and evidence we have with this new theory. Go go!

Was there really any need for this patronizing reply? Other posters before you responded quite reasonably to my statement, there was no need for you to be different just for the sake of it.

[Wik]

Was there really any need for this patronizing reply? Other posters before you responded quite reasonably to my statement, there was no need for you to be different just for the sake of it.

Sorry if you were offended. But your original post seemed to be a troll post. It was 4 words on a subject that has been covered many times. I assumed you were mocking most of us by making such a short, generalized statement, so I felt like firing back. If that wasn't your intention, then my apologies. It just seems like with all the info we gather in this thread, your point about his eye color is pretty irrelevant either for or against the theory.

Anyhow, my sincere apologies.

[LadyMary]

Hello, first time poster here. I admittedly read the series only after the HBO show started (after watching Ep1) and could not put the books down. I am on my second read of GOT and the rest again prior to ADWD's release. I put together the R+L+J prior to finding Westeros and other sites and was excited to see it is such a hot topic. Not that I don't believe there couldn't be another answer to Jon's parentage (such as Aerys+L=J) but i feel strongly Ned is not Jon's father.

My question is really more on a general note in regards to Lyanna's death. I have gone back and read all of the threads I could find on this topic but cannot find an answer. I do think someone asked a similar question on one of the VERY old threads so forgive me if it has been dealt with before!

What is the general belief surrounding HOW Lyanna died? Obviously we know that there was a bed of blood, etc. We know that most people believe she was kidnapped and then the rest of the events unfold. But what does the rest of Westeros think happened to her in the TOJ? They cannot all think that she had a baby and died; if that was so we would have no mystery surrounding the parentage of Jon Snow. It would be too obvious that the baby Ned showed up with was not his.

So, how, and of what , did she die from? Is that ever explained and I have just missed it?

It (the cause of Lyanna's death) is pretty much unspoken in the book series so far but nobody in universe - that has thought about or stated an opinion or memory about Lyanna and Rhaegar has explicitly contemplated she died in childbirth. The closest are Ned's memories/dreams of the fever and her bed of blood (which sounds similar to "the bloody bed" as Miri Maz Durr called childbirth) and from that we can only infer because he never comes out and thinks about her baby.

As for whether they believe she was kidnapped, there are numerous people who remark on or think about Rhaegar's love (or attraction) for Lyanna, including Daenerys - from what she'd been told, someone (can't remember who) that made a remark about how the songs all tell of Rhaegar and Robert fighting each other for the woman they both claimed to love; Cersei - who thinks that if she'd been Rhaegar's wife, he'd never have had anything to do with that Stark girl, and Robert himself before he dies when he says something like... "Rhaegar. I killed him, but he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have [Cersei]...", and Meera Reed who recounts the tale of the Dragon Prince and the Wolf Maid from Harrenhal. that suggests (to me at least) that maybe the general thoughts were that Rhaegar hadn't done the horrible thing that he'd been accused of by Robert and Brandon Stark who believed she'd been kidnapped and raped but that maybe it was more complicated than that. Interesting that when Ned talks about it to Robert, he says "you avenged Lyanna at the Trident", but I think that has more to do with Robert needed to believe he avenged a crime against her. What Ned actually thinks and remembers about the subject is more nuanced.

[Dragonfish]

...someone (can't remember who) that made a remark about how the songs all tell of Rhaegar and Robert fighting each other for the woman they both claimed to love...

That was the Elder brother on the Quiet Isle.

[Connavar]

This maybe in the wrong thread or may have been covered before, in which case I apologise and would appreciate someone pointing me to the right place, but like most of you I'm sure, I came to the R+L=J conclusion after reading the books before I went to the net for more info. Once I was aware that more than me and my mate had come to the same conclusion putting together the little hints I was sure it was nailed on fact... Until the TV show. After watching the whole series, most eps more than twice, I can safely say that for me there was only really one slight small hint in the first episode about Jon's true parentage, and then nothing in the rest of the show. For me that's a little worrying, as I'm sure HBO would have sat down with GRRM beforehand to get a general idea of what direction he wanted the story to go in, especially since they've stayed so true to the first book. So I was just wondering if there was anything in the show that could hint at Jons true parentage that I'd missed? The only one I caught, or thought I caught, was when he was discussing joint the Watch with his uncle Benjen.

Like I said, if this has been covered before, apologies!

[Anima]

The thing, it's not even that obvious. Your average, dedicated reader will admit that they didn't catch it until coming to Westeros or another website. It just seems obvious to us because we've been running circles around it for a decade while waiting for another book.

I so totally do not agree, I first read the book in French since I am and then read it in english because I've become rather proficient in it and I prefer it. Ever since the first time I've read this series, it has seemed pretty clear to me that GRRM was hinting at Jon's parentage being R+L but I'm not saying it is. Clearly GRRM doesn't want his story to be like any cliché fantasy book but that doesn't mean he always surprise us. I've read a decent amount of fantasy books and for example the birth of the dragons is very cliché-ish the way I see it. Since I am in favor of L+R=J I think that the way in which GRRM will let us discover the truth will be completely unexpected and surprising only the truth will not be since he has been hinting at it since the start. And just a passing thought here but who says Lyanna only talked of Jon/her child (if she even talked about it) maybe the promise was about something completely different. Rhaegar had read many a book of prophecies in his youth maybe he knew something that Lyanna discovered (if she was in captivity) or was told (if she was not).

[Dragonfish]

This maybe in the wrong thread or may have been covered before, in which case I apologise and would appreciate someone pointing me to the right place, but like most of you I'm sure, I came to the R+L=J conclusion after reading the books before I went to the net for more info. Once I was aware that more than me and my mate had come to the same conclusion putting together the little hints I was sure it was nailed on fact... Until the TV show. After watching the whole series, most eps more than twice, I can safely say that for me there was only really one slight small hint in the first episode about Jon's true parentage, and then nothing in the rest of the show. For me that's a little worrying, as I'm sure HBO would have sat down with GRRM beforehand to get a general idea of what direction he wanted the story to go in, especially since they've stayed so true to the first book. So I was just wondering if there was anything in the show that could hint at Jons true parentage that I'd missed? The only one I caught, or thought I caught, was when he was discussing joint the Watch with his uncle Benjen.

Like I said, if this has been covered before, apologies!

Ned at one point says to Jon, "You may not have my name, but you have my blood." That's the closest thing to a hint I've seen in the show.

Honestly, though, I wouldn't read too much into what the show does. Based on a recent interview, the producers most likely do know who Jon's parents are. However, that doesn't mean that they would put in as many clues in the show as there are in the books. For one thing, most of the clues in the books come from Ned's own thoughts, which is difficult to display on screen. For another, the whole thing might become a bit too obvious for show-watchers if they put too many clues in. I can say that may show-only aunt was already theorizing that Lyanna may be Jon's mother after the first episode (though she thought Robert was the father!), and if you go to the Television Without Pity Forum, people over there are theorizing much the same thing. Based on this, I think the producers have given enough hints that Jon may at least not be Ned's son.

[Anima]

I don't think we should follow the show to try to find out anything about Jon's parentage because the show is simply not the book and the only person we're certain knows Jon's parentage is GRRM. If we start spreading theories from the show it will go all over the place! I mean they made Renly and Loras tyrell gay and together! If they go like that in the first season you'll see some incredible things in the second season just like with the Seeker based on Goodkind's book.