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R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

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I don't think we should follow the show to try to find out anything about Jon's parentage because the show is simply not the book and the only person we're certain knows Jon's parentage is GRRM. If we start spreading theories from the show it will go all over the place! I mean they made Renly and Loras tyrell gay and together!

The producers do know the parentage. Renly and Loras were romantically involved, as heavily hinted in the book, and explicitly confirmed by GRRM.

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The producers do know the parentage. Renly and Loras were romantically involved, as heavily hinted in the book, and explicitly confirmed by GRRM.

Right, but the original meaning of the post holds merit. Renly and Loras were gay and lovers although GRRM never shows us any scenes were that is 100% proven, we are left to speculate (We know through GRRM that they were indeed homosexuals but the info in the books are just hints).

We get a very minor part or two about the potential R+L=J but nothing major in the series. To base theories on this evidence or lack there of, would dictate that every scene cut from the show that was in the books was not important or useful. These distinctions should be made simply because characters like Roz have a major part in the series but virtually no book time. And I don't think anyone thinks Roz is a major player in the Game of Thrones :lol:

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LadyMary, I agree that Ned's comments to Robert are such that he is trying to assure him of his belief's that Lyanna was done wrong by Rhaegar and that she was 'avenged' at the Trident. It almost sounds as if Ned is being ,well not sarcastic, but maybe implying that Robert's actions somehow had a hand in her death. Of course all subtlety is lost on Robert.

I find that the omission of any "general consensus" regarding Lyanna's death to be telling. Again, maybe I have missed what others believe to be the cause (by Rhaegar's hand?). But was not Rhaegar already dead when she is found? Did maybe Ned (and anyone else privy to the truth, such as Howland Reed) just say , oh, she was dead when we found her at the TOJ? Then every one just believed that and asked no questions.

That could be the easiest answer to my question. I am also going under the assumption that she died soon after giving birth . There may be another reason for her death ,of course, which would put the entire R+L=J on it's head. I guess I will just have to wait and see if there is more info forthcoming in ADWD.

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Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

Catelyn was loyal to Winterfell, heart and soul. Ned loved Cat and Cat loved Ned. Fullstop. Why would Ned taunt Cat with a "pretend bastard" for 15 years if hJon was actually his nephew? It makes no sense. We all know, plus Ned knows that Catelyn is hard out for Winterfall. Even if Cat was born at Riverrun, everyone knows she turned into a Winterfell-chick. Cat is so loyal to Winterfell it's not funny. Justifiably so as well. Cat has given birth to 5 children of Winterfell. No wonder she is such a staunch proponent of Winterfell.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

You also have to believe that 16 year old Lyanna had a baby in her arms and told Ned to take the baby but promise to never anyone who the baby was.

Also, you need to believe that wolf is stronger than dragon and Jon has absolutely no dragon traits.

So Jon is Rhaegar's son and one of the three heads of a dragon? lol... like lol.... Jon is a total wolf. He has no traits of dragon what so ever. None. As in zero traits of a dragon. In all povs and every sentence of the book there is zero hint of Jon having any dragon traits. EVER.

I'll stop this post here coz it's getting long, but I mean, come on.... read the books properly, nothing says Jon is a dragon/Targ.

The only mystery here is who was Jon's mother.

:agree:

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I have a theory about Jon not having Targaryen's features.

As we know from Meera's tale Howland Reed knows some magic. He could have casted a spell on baby Jon to hide his Targaryen appearence

Why do people insist on thinking that because someone has Targ blood they have to have distinctive Targ features- that's not how genetics works! Especially as very rare characteristics (which by definition these Targ ones are) are pretty much definitely recessive and thus very unlikely to come up in a non-incestuous relationship

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That was the Elder brother on the Quiet Isle.

Thank you, Dragonfish. Apparently if the Elder had heard the songs, the battle between Rhaegar and Robert over a woman they both loved (Lyanna) was pretty much legendary. And Daenerys heard the tales of Rhaegar"dying for the woman he loved" as well. Very romantic stuff. How often to kidnappers and rapists get memorialized in song?

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LadyMary, I agree that Ned's comments to Robert are such that he is trying to assure him of his belief's that Lyanna was done wrong by Rhaegar and that she was 'avenged' at the Trident. It almost sounds as if Ned is being ,well not sarcastic, but maybe implying that Robert's actions somehow had a hand in her death. Of course all subtlety is lost on Robert.

I find that the omission of any "general consensus" regarding Lyanna's death to be telling. Again, maybe I have missed what others believe to be the cause (by Rhaegar's hand?). But was not Rhaegar already dead when she is found? Did maybe Ned (and anyone else privy to the truth, such as Howland Reed) just say , oh, she was dead when we found her at the TOJ? Then every one just believed that and asked no questions.

That could be the easiest answer to my question. I am also going under the assumption that she died soon after giving birth . There may be another reason for her death ,of course, which would put the entire R+L=J on it's head. I guess I will just have to wait and see if there is more info forthcoming in ADWD.

If Lyanna died in child birth from Rhaegar's child, and Robert thinks that Rhaegar killed Lyanna, that's true, from a certain point of view...

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Not my first post (this is my second) but my first time commenting on this theory. I read the theories but wanted to say from the outset that I came to R+L=J on my own before coming to Westeros, just based on what I personally pieced together by reading the books. I think the major points and reasons for thinking this to be true have already been very well illustrated, so I'm just going to address some points.

1) Ned not telling Cat: Despite the pain it caused her I think it is totally believable that he would not tell Cat. 1) At the time (not in the intervening years but when Lyanna died) Ned didn't know Cat and didn't know where her heart lay. 2) After he did know her, telling her would have made her an accomplice in his crime. I think he would see it as heaping dishonor on her because she would have to live the lie like he did, if she'd known. I have no doubt that Robert would have seen Ned keeping Rhaegar's child a secret as a major crime and if Ned had been found out he would have been charged with treason, especially given Robert's still very present hostility to anything Targaryen. Keeping Cat out of it MIGHT have provided a way out for his children and family even if he himself was doomed. Additionally there is also the old addage that says that if you want a secret kept, you don't tell anyone. As it stands if R=L=J is true, there are at present two people only who likely know the truth (as Ned is dead at this point) Howland Reed and Wylla the wet nurse. Ned may have very wisely thought that adding another person, even his beloved wife, would greatly increase the chances of discovery.

2) Legitimacy: I don't know or really think it matters all too much whether Jon was legitimate or not, because ultimately if any king or queen needs him to be legitimate, it certainly seems clear that they could do it by writ or whatever or could formally adopt Jon as a son to put him in a legitimate place. In some ways I think it would work out better than if he was still a bastard because it would avoid mucking up Dani's claim to the throne.

3) Where Jon Fits: I know there has been lots of spec that somehow Jon and Dani in true Targaryen fashion hook up at some point down the line but I sort of feel like if R+L=J plays out it will be so Dani can have an heir of Targaryen blood instead of a king/relative/spouse. Though I agree that at present it seems like the riders will be Dani, Tyrion and Jon, I can't help but feel like Bran is also destined for a dragon given the prophecy about him being the winged wolf. If that does play out and Bran is destined for a dragon, it is a possibility that he ends up as one of Dani' husbands not Jon. The problem with such a union is that it is at present doubly sterile as neither Dani nor Bran can have children. But Jon is a living breathing blend of the Targaryen and Stark bloodlines would could easily be adopted and legitimized. Frankly I think his vow to the Night's Watch is more problematic to get around (in part because Jon himself takes his vows so seriously) than any problem coming from Jon's bastard status. Not to mention that a union between the houses of Stark and Targaryen would unify the kingdom since the royal bloodline would have northern blood in it from this point on (as opposed to the rationale the Great Jon used when making Rob King of the North - that they had bent to the dragons but not the Baratheons) and any heir would be heir to the northern crown as much as the one to the seven kingdoms (I do get that there is major overlap between the two claims but this would end the discussion).

So those are my additions to this theory.

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What about Ned Dayne telling Arya about how Jon's "mother" was his wet nurse (Wylla)? Of course it could have just been a cover up orchestrated by Ned... Or Ashara could actually be Jon's mother, or it could be Wylla, or R+L=J could be true... Ugh, there are so many possibilities... GRRM just tell us already ffs xD :bang:

On the topic of how we will actually find out about Jon's true parentage, I think it will come from the Reed siblings, or potentially their father, when/if he does make an appearance (I hope he does).

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What about Ned Dayne telling Arya about how Jon's "mother" was his wet nurse (Wylla)? Of course it could have just been a cover up orchestrated by Ned... Or Ashara could actually be Jon's mother, or it could be Wylla, or R+L=J could be true... Ugh, there are so many possibilities... GRRM just tell us already ffs xD :bang:

That's the second mention of Wylla being Jon's mother, actually. The first mention is by Robert in the chapter where he and Ned go riding together. As for what Ned Dayne says, most people don't give his words to much credence, because he wasn't even born when these events occurred and he could simply be repeating rumors (or a made-up cover story) as fact. Plus, it doesn't really make much sense that Ned would be so secretive about Jon's mother if she turned out to be some commoner.

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One particular scene in the book, after seeing it played out on screen, confirmed it for me. Ned becomes very, very quiet when Robert starts talking about Lyana and then straight into Jon's mother. Ned seems almost nervous. As I mentioned before, Ned makes it clear in the book that Robert never really saw what the truth was, even if it was under his nose. For all we know, this war was started because Robert was jealous that Lyana loved Rhaegar, and not him, and made up this story. If Viserys had already fled with his mother, the only heir to the throne would be Rhaegar's son, as far as I know, and the only reason the KG would be there, would be to protect the future King. If Ned and Howland arrive at the TOJ after the other children have been brutally murdered, all I can think of Howland saying to the KG is that they are there to protect the child. I don't think Ashara killed herself over losing her child, but maybe she knew she couldn't keep the secret of Jon's parentage, and offed herself, and that is why Ned never told Cat. Maybe she's still alive. Maybe she was broken over Ned. I just don't think she is Jon's Mom, at all.

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That's the second mention of Wylla being Jon's mother, actually. The first mention is by Robert in the chapter where he and Ned go riding together. As for what Ned Dayne says, most people don't give his words to much credence, because he wasn't even born when these events occurred and he could simply be repeating rumors (or a made-up cover story) as fact. Plus, it doesn't really make much sense that Ned would be so secretive about Jon's mother if she turned out to be some commoner.

Yea I know it wasn't the first time she was mentioned, but it was the first time anyone other than Ned talked about her, or even mentioned Jon's parentage for that matter (as far as I remember that is... I really should re-read the books lol). Ned's always had the habit of avoiding quickly trying to avert the subject as well.

If we don't find out more in ADwD, I don't think I could take it <_<

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To anyone who still clings to this "Why didn't Ned tell Cat the truth?" claim.

Are any of you married?

I am. And I'm here to tell you, if I disappeared for over a year, at war, at the drugstore, or wherever, came home with a newborn that I knew had the propensity to grow up with a significant resemblance to yours truly...and tried the old,

"No, honey, he's not mine he's really the heir to the throne by my sister and the prince who kidnapped her yeah the one my best friend who's now the King BTW was supposed to marry, but get this She was in love with the dude after all and she asked me to raise him as my bastard cause she died and the father's dead and he'll look like me anyway since he's my sister's not mine but only YOU know the truth and we can't tell anyone I mean noone it'll be our little secret ok honey?"

"Hon?"

"Baby?"

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Have we ever pieced anything like this possibility together?

Ned goes to ToJ. Fights the KG, finds his sister and baby Jon. His sister explains everything that happens and swears him to silence. She asks Ned to cover up her son's identity and makes him swear that he will. He obviously accepts it as her dying wish. He returns Dawn to Ashara Dayne, who is/has been taken with Ned. She loves him but knows that they are on the opposite side of the war. She finds that he has a newborn babe with him. This is the first person he has to use the cover up on. He tells her he sire a bastard on a common girl. Ashara is heart broken because her brother is now dead and the man she is interested in killed him, has brought the family sword back and brought a new child of his with him, more or less throwing it in her face. Her brother is dead. Her potential love interest is poking someone else and just slayed her brother, she is struck with grief, time to take a jump off the tower.

I'm not sure how the timeline fits together for this potential scenario but I just cooked it up as I was reading and figured I would go with it. Feel free to dissect and trash at your convenience!

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My first post here:

First, I am a firm believer in R+L=J, but I don't think that Lyanna died in childbirth.

1. During the TOJ dream as the fight begins Ned here's Lyanna screaming his name. (that doesn't strike me as childbirth"

2. During Theon's dream at winterfell he sees Lyanna in her white gown "spattered with gore."

I think she was somehow wounded during the fight.

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1. During the TOJ dream as the fight begins Ned here's Lyanna screaming his name. (that doesn't strike me as childbirth"

It's a dream, and not an entirely literal one.

2. During Theon's dream at winterfell he sees Lyanna in her white gown "spattered with gore."

This is also a dream, and from someone who was never there. As far as Theon knows, Lyanna was killed by someone. Besides, births are not exactly pretty; the "gore" could easily have come from that.

I think she was somehow wounded during the fight.

As SFDanny intimated, Ned found Lyanna with a fever. It's doubtful she could have fought under those conditions.

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It's a dream, and not an entirely literal one.

This is also a dream, and from someone who was never there. As far as Theon knows, Lyanna was killed by someone. Besides, births are not exactly pretty; the "gore" could easily have come from that.

As SFDanny intimated, Ned found Lyanna with a fever. It's doubtful she could have fought under those conditions.

True, it is a dream, but its part of the information we have.

As far as childbirth being gory, I watched my wife give me five children and nobody got "spattered with gore." Of course it not exactly modern medicine they're practicing either.

The fever could have come from injuries as easily as any other explanation. It doesn't say she had the fever when he arrived at the TOJ or how long he was there. I guess its mostly Theon's description that makes me think something else happened there.

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True, it is a dream, but its part of the information we have.

As far as childbirth being gory, I watched my wife give me five children and nobody got "spattered with gore." Of course it not exactly modern medicine they're practicing either.

The fever could have come from injuries as easily as any other explanation. It doesn't say she had the fever when he arrived at the TOJ or how long he was there. I guess its mostly Theon's description that makes me think something else happened there.

If Lyanna died in childbirth there must have been complications. That might be the reason for the "spattered with gore."

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