R + L = J Part XXIII

[Ser Pistus]

What about Ned Dayne telling Arya about how Jon's "mother" was his wet nurse (Wylla)?

Actually he tells Arya that Jon's mother was Ashara. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal."

Wylla was just the wet nurse.

[SerArthurHeath]

Maybe Dayne or Ned or Reed either prior to or after the fight had to give Lyanna an emergency C-section to save the child's life?

[SerArthurHeath]

True, it is a dream, but its part of the information we have.

As far as childbirth being gory, I watched my wife give me five children and nobody got "spattered with gore." Of course it not exactly modern medicine they're practicing either.

The fever could have come from injuries as easily as any other explanation. It doesn't say she had the fever when he arrived at the TOJ or how long he was there. I guess its mostly Theon's description that makes me think something else happened there.

Whilst I don't think that Theon's nightmares are a hugely reliable source, it is very true that an infected wound is a very likely cause of fever. But not coming on quickly enough to be the result of Lyanna being wounded in the fight. So how did she get wounded? If it were deliberate prior to the fight, she would be dead, surely?

[LadyMary]

True, it is a dream, but its part of the information we have.

As far as childbirth being gory, I watched my wife give me five children and nobody got "spattered with gore." Of course it not exactly modern medicine they're practicing either.

The fever could have come from injuries as easily as any other explanation. It doesn't say she had the fever when he arrived at the TOJ or how long he was there. I guess its mostly Theon's description that makes me think something else happened there.

Wow five kids? You must be at least as old as I am or started young... Good to know I'm not the only old-person that posts here. :)

I gave birth to two children and there was blood when they cut the umbilical chord and other bodily fluids, from the amniotic sac ...not trying gross anyone out, just sayin'. It's messy business to give birth.

Assuming the AOIAF-verse is like the middle ages, Lyanna would have given birth in a time when they didn't have antiseptic birthing practices and 1 out of 3 woman in the real world died in childbirth or shortly after, due to infection. Lyanna had a fever which fits the aftermath of childbirth. And it's possible that it could have been some random fever or some kind of plague that killed her but there was no mention of a plague going on in the Kingdom during that time.

In the dream, the woman's gown was covered in "gore" which could be blood and fluids. In Ned's dream, he refers to it as her "bed of blood" which sounds like "bloody bed" which is how another character, Mirri Maz Durr, refers to childbirth. But they were dreams anyway, and if we're taking dreams literally, then Lyanna was not in the fight between the Northmen and the Kings Guard. She was inside the Tower while it was going on.

Are you suggesting that one of the men guarding her wounded her? If that's the case, then why did Ned still think so respectfully of the Kings Guard in his other memories? Why take the time to respectfully bury them? Why go all the way to Starfall to return the sword Dawn. Wouldn't he have treated them like the dishonorable criminals who would wound and murder a captive Lady?

Actually he tells Arya that Jon's mother was Ashara. "My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal."

Wylla was just the wet nurse.

No, Ned Dayne tells Arya that he and Jon are milk brothers and that Wylla is Jon's natural mother. He also tells her that Lady Ashara and Lord Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal. But the thing is, Edric was not even born when all of that happened. He's repeating what he's been told which means whoever told him about it could have told him a lie, and I think absolutely did. Little Ned wouldn't know otherwise, he'd repeat what he was told because he had no reason not to.

[Ser Pistus]

No, Ned Dayne tells Arya that he and Jon are milk brothers and that Wylla is Jon's natural mother. He also tells her that Lady Ashara and Lord Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal.

Yes, you are right. So the official story told by the Daynes is that Ned loved one woman, fathered a bastard to another and married a third. It starts to get complicated.

[Galen M]

Yes, you are right. So the official story told by the Daynes is that Ned loved one woman, fathered a bastard to another and married a third. It starts to get complicated.

I think that it's sort of an "open secret" that Ashara was the birth mother. It's officially, Wylla, but if people dig a little deeper, then start to think Ashara is the mother. It just provides another level of in-universe protection for Jon's true identity if RLJ holds.

[Aegon's Landing]

My first post here:

First, I am a firm believer in R+L=J, but I don't think that Lyanna died in childbirth.

1. During the TOJ dream as the fight begins Ned here's Lyanna screaming his name. (that doesn't strike me as childbirth"

2. During Theon's dream at winterfell he sees Lyanna in her white gown "spattered with gore."

I think she was somehow wounded during the fight.

You, sir were blessed. My wife had 4, all normal and healthy, and very non-gory.

Our experiences, thank God, were asymptommatic deliveries, with modern medical care at our fingertips in the event of complication.

Of the pages of pregnancy and birth complications that could arise (but didn't with us) I found this one really interesting (pasted directly from WebMD:

Uterine Bleeding (Postpartum Hemorrhage)

After a baby is delivered, excessive bleeding from the uterus, called postpartum hemorrhage, can be a major concern. Excessive bleeding may result when the contractions of the uterus after delivery are impaired, and the blood vessels that opened when the placenta detached from the wall of the uterus continue to bleed.

Sounds like a gory situation to me...and a splattered/soaked gown.

Lyanna could have held on for days like this...

ETA: also sounds like "...her bed of blood" as Ned described in TOJ scene.

[UnHoly1]

It's a dream, and not an entirely literal one.

This is also a dream, and from someone who was never there. As far as Theon knows, Lyanna was killed by someone. Besides, births are not exactly pretty; the "gore" could easily have come from that.

As SFDanny intimated, Ned found Lyanna with a fever. It's doubtful she could have fought under those conditions.

I am a firm advocate of R+L=J, but I did want to point out that one of the symptoms of shock is a fever... Any wound sustained in battle would likely cause shock... Ergo, a battle wound could conceivably cause a fever....

But, it is much, much more likely (based on the evidence at hand, that the fever was caused by childbirth complications....

[the andorran]

If R+L=J is true, I would put the most logical cause of her death to be puerperal fever, ie, she contracted an infection during childbirth. It usually takes quite some time for the patient to actually die, so it accounts for Lyanna's not actually being in the throws of birth when Ned arrived at ToJ, her fever, and "bed of blood" as a metaphor for childbirth.

[Kadence]

Anyone else ever wonder if Jon's name is actually Jon?

Now I think that most likely, he never had another name. Rhaeghar died before even knowing if it was a son or daughter, and Lyanna probably didn't have much time to think of it. But perhaps they did talk and have a "if it's a daughter we'll name it ___, if it's a son he'll be ___" discussion.

Maybe Jon's name is actually Jaehaerys or something like that, and there's no way Ned could possibly allow the prince he's trying to hide to have a ridiculously obvious Targaryen name like that. So Ned picked Jon because it was the closest analog (along with it being his mentor's name). Unlikely but just a random thought.

[SFDanny]

I am a firm advocate of R+L=J, but I did want to point out that one of the symptoms of shock is a fever... Any wound sustained in battle would likely cause shock... Ergo, a battle wound could conceivably cause a fever....

But, it is much, much more likely (based on the evidence at hand, that the fever was caused by childbirth complications....

Perhaps you know something I don't, but, my understanding is that a symptom of shock is a coldness, or clammy feeling - the opposite of a fever. Instead, fever is associated with infection such puerperal fever or what one would experience from the festering of a wound. Not what one would expect from the immediate after effects of a newly received wound. The blood could be from childbirth, hemmoraging from childbirth complications, or a recent wound, but the fever seems to point to infection - i.e. the second of these possibilities.

[cern]

Hello all, new to the forums, so apologies if this has been covered well before - but I was just thinking on which character's would know the truth of Jon's parentage and who might reveal it to Jon. I find the R+L=J theory to be quite compelling, if that is the truth of the matter, who could have known other than Ned? the only person I feel Ned may have told would have been Benjen. Other than that It'd probably come down good ol' Varys - but I think something would have been hinted if that were true, but then again maybe not.

[Dragonfish]

Hello all, new to the forums, so apologies if this has been covered well before - but I was just thinking on which character's would know the truth of Jon's parentage and who might reveal it to Jon. I find the R+L=J theory to be quite compelling, if that is the truth of the matter, who could have known other than Ned? the only person I feel Ned may have told would have been Benjen. Other than that It'd probably come down good ol' Varys - but I think something would have been hinted if that were true, but then again maybe not.

Howland Reed and at least one other person (Wylla, maybe) found Ned with Lyanna after she died. Chances are they know the truth.

[iheartseverus]

Howland Reed and at least one other person (Wylla, maybe) found Ned with Lyanna after she died. Chances are they know the truth.

Howland Reed also fought alongside Ned at the ToJ against the three Kingsguards, probably saving Ned's life when it seemed that Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, was just about to get the better of Ned. So, whatever or whomever brought Ned to the ToJ in the first place, Howland was right there with him. And Howland's children are of course, Jojen and Meera Reed, who're now traveling in the North with Bran.

[SerArthurHeath]

I am a firm advocate of R+L=J, but I did want to point out that one of the symptoms of shock is a fever... Any wound sustained in battle would likely cause shock... Ergo, a battle wound could conceivably cause a fever....

But, it is much, much more likely (based on the evidence at hand, that the fever was caused by childbirth complications....

Only septic shock. Fever is absolutely linked with your immune system- certain interleukins released by White blood cells cause it as a reaction to infection to try a d burn out the pathogens causing it. A fever without infection or autoimmune disease, battle wounds withstanding, is incredibly unlikely

[SerArthurHeath]

Anyone else ever wonder if Jon's name is actually Jon?

Now I think that most likely, he never had another name. Rhaeghar died before even knowing if it was a son or daughter, and Lyanna probably didn't have much time to think of it. But perhaps they did talk and have a "if it's a daughter we'll name it ___, if it's a son he'll be ___" discussion.

Maybe Jon's name is actually Jaehaerys or something like that, and there's no way Ned could possibly allow the prince he's trying to hide to have a ridiculously obvious Targaryen name like that. So Ned picked Jon because it was the closest analog (along with it being his mentor's name). Unlikely but just a random thought.

I ask again, is the g in Aegon hard or soft?

[Galen M]

I ask again, is the g in Aegon hard or soft?

hard, as in egg. I don't think someone whose name was pronounced "Ay-jon" would be called Egg.

[SerArthurHeath]

hard, as in egg. I don't think someone whose name was pronounced "Ay-jon" would be called Egg.

Just to be facetious, do we know how the nickname "Egg" is pronounced :P

No fair point

[tybeechris]

While R+L+J is certainly possible, I will wait for Martin to let me know what is what and not try and get ahead of him.

This reply is really to a ton of posts in this thread that try and envision what Martin's ending will be and what place Jon and Dany will have in it. My point is that a lot of people have some pretty standard fantasy series endings in mind, and this seems very very unlikely to me. One of GRRM's main motivations that he has stated time and time again in every interview I have read on this series is to turn fantasy cliches on their heads. Almost nothing in the four books we have read goes as it would have in a "tradionally" structured heroic epic, the exact kind of stories Martin is so bothered by.

Whatever ending we get I'm sure will be strange and iconoclastic and different than anything that has gone before. Why write a wildly daring and rebellious story that battles fantasy conventions at every turn and then conform to those conventions at the ending? I don't pretend to have any good predictions about the ending, but one bet seems pretty sure: if it seems like it would happen one way in 85 percent of the novels on the Barnes and Noble fantasy rack, Martin will do it the other way, just like he did when the Mountain killed the Red Viper, Ned Stark was beheaded, and Jofffrey was killed by a Littlefinger/Tyrell plot and not by one of our protaganists to revenge his wrongs.

All I'm saying is while I don't have a clue how AoIAF will end, I see very little evidence that it will end like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, The Sword of Shanarra, or Dragonlance. Those hoping for the Death Star blowing up and all the happy living heroes getting their medals while the Children of the Forest dance as flowery vines grow over the walls of Harrenhall are going to be quite disappointed.

I totally agree. None of his other books end with conventional endings either. I can only assume that he will leave us with a satisfied, albeit, bittersweet ending which is more on the "this is not the end. This is not the beginning of the end. This is the end of the beginning...." motif.

[Kadence]

R+L=J doesn't really have anything to do with happy endings. It's only about reading the literary clues the author is giving you, and the fact that so many things make no sense whatsoever if it isn't true. And it's not like most of the clues are particularly subtle.

Happy endings are a totally different thing altogether. I doubt you'll find very many fans who've read all these books, who still expept some conventional happy ending. Martin doesn't roll that way. But that's a completely different topic.