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R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

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Ok I haven't read all the posts, theres just too many. I tried though. Either way I don't have much to say other than that I think it would be funny as hell if Martin were to be reading this and say " So they think that Jon's parents are gonna be Rhaegar and Lyanna eh? I'll show them." and then write something so mind blowingly crazy were all gonna be like WTF mate? in the good way though.

I just don't see anyone actually guessing whats going on in that brain o' his, but the topic is interesting though.

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That is one of my biggest fears is that Martin will try to write his way out of it...just because he's promised to "turn fantasy trends on their ear" and the secret heir is pretty much a staple...

I don't mean that I'll be disappointed if this theory is wrong, I just don't want the story to be sacrificed for Martin's ego. which seems to be quite large, even by author's standards.

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That is one of my biggest fears is that Martin will try to write his way out of it...just because he's promised to "turn fantasy trends on their ear" and the secret heir is pretty much a staple...

Easy ways for him to subvert that trope:

1) Jon never finds out

2) Jon finds out and doesn't care, and he remains in the Night's Watch

3) Jon finds out and dies before he can claim the throne

4) Jon finds out, but no one will acknowledge his claim, forcing him to return to the wall

Probably more ways that I can't think of

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Easy ways for him to subvert that trope:

1) Jon never finds out

2) Jon finds out and doesn't care, and he remains in the Night's Watch

3) Jon finds out and dies before he can claim the throne

4) Jon finds out, but no one will acknowledge his claim, forcing him to return to the wall

Probably more ways that I can't think of

Or better

Dany finds out; forces him to breed and give her the son; then closes Stannis' loophole by forcing him to swear the NW oath before all faiths and finally ends up taking the remaining Starks hostage for his good behavior and silence.

That really does turn it upside down by making Jon play the subservient daughter role to the dynasty while Dany plays the dominant son role.

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I don't think that Martin is going to have invested all the time in planning this out, and then change his mind because some people on the internet figured out one of the twists. Subverting a trope doesn't mean that you have to completely reverse it--it just means playing out a scenario more complicated and true to life than the stereotypical fantasy work. If he were portraying a world completely devoid of traditional fantasy elements, you wouldn't have Dany--herself something of a "lost heir"--being able to hatch her dragons. "The last dragon" is a pretty standard trope too, but one that's played out more interestingly here.

In this case, I think that subverting tropes is easy, since I don't foresee Jon being acclaimed by all as the rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms, if there even ARE seven kingdoms left by the time he becomes aware of his heritage. My pet hunch is that at some point the Night's Watch as we know it gets dissolved, and replaced with a new organization, one oriented toward sustainability. This was from Jon and Maester Aemon's conversation about duty, emphasis mine:

“Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked.

Jon shrugged. “No.” He scattered more meat. The fingers of his left hand were slimy with blood, and his right throbbed from the weight of the bucket.

“So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”

That did not sound right to Jon, yet he said nothing. The maester was a hundred years old, and a high officer of the Night’s Watch; it was not his place to contradict him.

I'm guessing that in the end we'll see a "new" Night's Watch type group, one based on the premise that love is intrinsic to duty: that men with wives, families, and a stake in the future will fight harder, longer, and more fearlessly to protect their people, and that the Night's Watch can only survive and continue if it's more than a dumping ground for criminals, bastards, and unwanted sons. Settling the Gift with wildlings, raising children, and creating a new culture around the defense of the Wall (or whatever ends up replacing it).

But then, I'm getting off topic for R+L=J.

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Anyone else ever wonder if Jon's name is actually Jon?

Put me down as one who's wondered whether Jon has a Targaryen name. Besides Jaehaerys, Viserys has been suggested as (presumably) the male form of Visenya, which seems to be what Rhaegar expected given the names of his children with Elia. Then again, Rhaegar already has a close family member of that name; I have the same objection to Aegon. I've also seen Aemon, in honor of the Dragonknight, and Jon being named not for Jon Arryn, but Jon Connington. Or maybe both, as a compromise between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Ultimately, GRRM can pick any name he wishes from the vast Targaryen family tree with a little variation, maybe, or invent whatever he pleases. As far as I'm concerned, if GRRM goes this route, it'll simply be another fun way to mess with Jon's head, lol.

Regarding "traditional" fantasy endings, I sometimes feel like folks have a selective memory when it comes to what the conventions are. Take LOTR, for example. I've always found the ending of LOTR rather melancholy. Yes, Frodo, Aragorn et al. triumph, but all that's magic about Middle-earth will inevitably fade. All the wonders seen and experienced during the Ring War will recede into history, then legend, myth, and finally nothing for future generations, and there's really no stopping the loss. I particularly love "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in Appendix A:

Arwen went forth from the House [of the Kings in the Silent Street after Aragorn's death], and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion [her son], and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien [the realm her grandparents once ruled], and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

There at last when the mallorn leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth [the "fair hill" upon which she and Aragorn plighted their troth]; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the [sundering] Sea.

Dude, it's a freaking tragedy! That's not all it is, of course, but focusing only on Aragorn and Arwen's long, happy marriage is selling Tolkien's story short just as surely as I think there being disproportionately more bitter than sweet in the finale of GRRM's magnum opus might turn out not so satisfying as those reflexively dismissive of "cliches" expect.

Not even the conclusion to SW is as saccharine as people seem to believe. Especially for Anakin and Luke, the designated heroes of the story. (Let's ignore the EU where, honestly, everyone and everything gets twisted in truly terrific ways, lol.) The Emperor, Darth Vader, and a good chunk of the Imperial Fleet are gone, but is the galaxy-spanning Empire dead? Plus, the Jedi Order (those emotionally constipated political incompetents!) amounts to one half-trained kid.

I'm not claiming there aren't fantasies that end on unambiguously happy notes but, IMO, such works aren't as powerful in moving the reader or as culturally influential in the long run. JKR, for one, I think completely chickens out in writing the Slytherins with more nuance. It's almost like she can't very well let Snape live because, as perhaps the grayest of her characters, she apparently has no idea how to deal with his abrasive, unforgiving personality and history of dark deeds in the postwar Wizarding World. I certainly can't imagine GRRM suffering a similar failure. OTOH, I wish folks would stop acting as if GRRM invented the concept of a bittersweet ending in fantasy. Or complex characterization, for that matter.

Okay! Off-topic rant over! :blush:

R+L=J doesn't necessarily imply happy times for Jon, Dany, or anybody else. I agree with Kadence on that. What the theory means, to me, is DRAMA! Which is what I always expect of GRRM, lol. However, I do believe R+L=J must have some positive effects on the characters and plot, even if it's a relatively minor element like granting Jon peace of mind on the question of his parentage and identity, or it won't be realistic. The consequences of such a huge and complex revelation being only disastrous is no more plausible than everything being hunky-dory, IMO.

Furthermore, if GRRM truly is the master of meticulous plotting and foreshadowing that I, along with pretty much all the other members of this board, assume he is, then, yes, it'll probably become easier and easier to predict how the story will turn next. I don't see the problem with that because it means GRRM isn't pulling totally illogical twists from thin air and is working hard to bring the threads in his massive tapestry together. Seriously, unpredictability doesn't automatically equal good storytelling!

Aegon's Landing, I would be disappointed and, frankly, angry if R+L=J turns out to be wrong without an equally dramatic and plausible replacement. Picture this scenario: After six books of rampant speculation about Snape's allegiances, taking into account every potential clue from Dumbledore's unshakable faith in Snape to the influence of Harry's prejudices and ignorance on his perception of Snape to Alan Rickman being cast as Snape in the films, HP fans come to the general consensus that Snape is Dumbledore's spy in Voldemort's inner circle and has held this position since the end of the first war with Voldemort. Then JKR, to upset fan theories, reveals that Snape is in fact an evil bastard wholeheartedly devoted to Voldemort's cause who's been hoodwinking Dumbledore the entire time. Harry kills him. The end. (Gotcha!)

No, man, that's not cool. Not cool. At all. <_<

As for trope subversion, I actually feel R+L=J works best (i.e. creates the most DRAMA!) when played straight. Mess with Jon's head. Mess with Dany's head. Throw a giant wrench into the balance of power at the Wall, in the North, and of Westeros by upending the schemes of every plotter who doesn't have knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Which is likely everybody except the Reeds and allies. It's a wonderful mess, IMO, especially with proof of a legitimate marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Even Aragorn would've been courting civil war in Gondor had Denethor not conveniently gone crazy and burnt himself alive. And that's with victory on the battlefield to save Minas Tirith from certain destruction, millennia-old Elven nobility substantiating his claims, a literal magic sword, and legendary healing powers! I doubt Jon will be so lucky.

Interesting theory about the Night's Watch, ADB. Though, like the PT Jedi, I don't think the NW is wrong in forbidding attachment. The NW must remain apolitical, and that's a lot harder to do when you've acknowledged family members throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Plus, the NW's function as a last resort for criminals facing a death sentence or the like isn't without merit. I'd rather see a legal exception that allows the NW to take command of non-NW forces, even hold non-NW land as a sort of protectorate, under special and narrowly defined circumstances, i.e. an imminent ice zombie apocalypse. Of course, the law's only worth as much as people think it is, so there should be an alternative... Whatever! This discussion has no place here! Thus, I need not elaborate on my ideas, lol.

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Yeade, in general, I actually quite agree with you regarding the manner in which R+L=J will be handled, if it is true. It doesn't necessarily spell a happy ending, but for me, the circumstances are too convenient to be satisfying.

However, I don't think that your comparing the Snape situation to R+L=J isn't an apt comparison. Fandom was honestly divided over his allegiance, and R+L=J is much more broadly accepted than Snape Is Good ever was. Even most people who dislike the idea are willing to accept that the possibility of R+L=J, whereas people were very adamant about their stance on Snape's loyalties. (I remember, I was one of them.)

A more appropriate Harry Potter comparison would be the identity of RAB. Almost everyone in fandom guessed that it was Regulus Black. It seemed like a total no-brainer. Not R+L=J would be like some other wizard having been RAB. Not outside the realm of possibility, but with the potential to be done, and in the hands of a gifted writer, the possibility to be done well.

It would be foolish of GRRM to change his endgame because of internet theorists, and that would most likely get us an unsatisfying ending. Even though I have joked that that's what took ADWD so long. :P

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Ultimately, GRRM can pick any name he wishes from the vast Targaryen family tree with a little variation, maybe, or invent whatever he pleases. As far as I'm concerned, if GRRM goes this route, it'll simply be another fun way to mess with Jon's head, lol.

Haha, brilliant. "Hey Jon...you know how you don't know who your mother was? Well guess what Jon, you don't know who your dad was either! In fact Jon...you're not even Jon!!" That would be some funny shit.

I'd also like to see his reaction to "You're grandfather cooked your other grandfather alive in his own armor, then probably got so horny about it he raped your grandma."

I particularly love "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" in Appendix A:

Holy crap that is depressing.

Furthermore, if GRRM truly is the master of meticulous plotting and foreshadowing that I, along with pretty much all the other members of this board, assume he is, then, yes, it'll probably become easier and easier to predict how the story will turn next. I don't see the problem with that because it means GRRM isn't pulling totally illogical twists from thin air and is working hard to bring the threads in his massive tapestry together. Seriously, unpredictability doesn't automatically equal good storytelling!

100% agreed. We've seen other authors ret-con their works in the middle of them, and it stinks - and often causes the earlier work to seem lesser as well. I don't know anything about Harry Potter but yeah, writers changing stuff just because readers have caught on is silly. I actually suspect the whole Joffrey hiring the assasin thing was a retcon, but that's not a huge thing, and it wouldn't have anything to do with readers figuring it out - Martin probably had some other reason to change his mind. I think the Rhaeghar/Lyanna story is too integral for him to consider retconning.

As for trope subversion, I actually feel R+L=J works best (i.e. creates the most DRAMA!) when played straight. Mess with Jon's head. Mess with Dany's head. Throw a giant wrench into the balance of power at the Wall, in the North, and of Westeros by upending the schemes of every plotter who doesn't have knowledge of Jon's true parentage. Which is likely everybody except the Reeds and allies. It's a wonderful mess, IMO, especially with proof of a legitimate marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Exactly - Jon being their kid would be the most poetic, most dramatic scenario possible. Which is why I fell in love with it right away even though I just thought it was a fanciful notion in my head. I was real surprised when I read the GoT FAQ (this was before Clash was published) and found out that it was the most widely accepted notion for his parentage. And it showed Martin's writing skills that I got that theory in my head in the middle of reading GoT, without even realizing that it was being placed there. Jon being a Targ had the most story potential out of anything - and up to this point we've barely seen anything, yet the payoff has already been epic (the Harrenhal/Knight of the Laughing Tree story).

Interesting theory about the Night's Watch, ADB. Though, like the PT Jedi, I don't think the NW is wrong in forbidding attachment. The NW must remain apolitical, and that's a lot harder to do when you've acknowledged family members throughout the Seven Kingdoms. Plus, the NW's function as a last resort for criminals facing a death sentence or the like isn't without merit.

I disagree, I just think the notion of not being allowed to marry is pretty crazy and way too big a limiting factor to the Watch's size. Especially for those that volunteer for the Watch. Why would anyone be crazy enough to volunteer to freeze your tail off miserably, without lover or family, and no social prestige (like a Kingsguard)?

And anyway, the only family that really matter will be living up there with you, which shouldn't cause many issues with conflicting loyalties. People didn't travel in those days. If you have some family in Highgarden, swearing some oaths isn't going to make you forget you have some family in Highgarden - the fact that they're all the way in Highgarden is what makes them largely irrelevant, not the oaths. And having your own family living with you near the Wall would only increase the incentive to protect it to the death. The not having family thing is impractical.

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Perhaps you know something I don't, but, my understanding is that a symptom of shock is a coldness, or clammy feeling - the opposite of a fever. Instead, fever is associated with infection such puerperal fever or what one would experience from the festering of a wound. Not what one would expect from the immediate after effects of a newly received wound. The blood could be from childbirth, hemmoraging from childbirth complications, or a recent wound, but the fever seems to point to infection - i.e. the second of these possibilities.

Some (i.e. not all) symptoms of shock:


  • Pyrexia (fever), due to increased level of cytokines
  • Systemic vasodilation resulting in hypotension (low blood pressure
  • Warm and sweaty skin due to vasodilation
  • Systemic leukocyte adhesion to endothelial tissue
  • Reduced contractility of the heart
  • Activation of the coagulation pathways, resulting in disseminated intravascular coagulation
  • Increased levels of neutrophils

Some others:


  • Anxiety, restlessness, altered mental state due to decreased cerebral perfusion and subsequent hypoxia
  • Hypotension due to decrease in circulatory volume
  • A rapid, weak, thready pulse due to decreased blood flow combined with tachycardia
  • Cool, clammy skin due to vasoconstriction and stimulation of vasoconstriction
  • Rapid and shallow respirations due to sympathetic nervous system stimulation and acidosis
  • Hypothermia due to decreased perfusion and evaporation of sweat
  • Thirst and dry mouth, due to fluid depletion
  • Fatigue due to inadequate oxygenation
  • Cold and mottled skin (cutis marmorata), especially extremities, due to insufficient perfusion of the skin
  • Distracted look in the eyes or staring into space, often with pupils dilated

All I was saying is that there is a possibility that the fever could have been brought on by shock caused by a wound from battle. I didn't say I thought it was likely... but it is within the realm of possibility....

Symptoms brought to you by:

Kumar, Vinay; Abbas, Abul K.; Fausto, Nelson; & Mitchell, Richard N. (2007). Robbins Basic Pathology (8th ed.). Saunders Elsevier. pp. 102-103

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Only septic shock. Fever is absolutely linked with your immune system- certain interleukins released by White blood cells cause it as a reaction to infection to try a d burn out the pathogens causing it. A fever without infection or autoimmune disease, battle wounds withstanding, is incredibly unlikely

I'm not a Doctor.... I'm just saying that it is possible, however unlikely....

Like I said... I don't believe it, but it is plausible...

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What you say is true but your post doesnt acknowledge the difference in different forms of shock- there are several forms, namely cardiogenic (insufficient heart pumping to perfuse organs), anaphylactic (severe allergic reaction), septic (response to infection affecting the whole body) and volume depleted (usually blood loss). The symptoms and signs you describe are not universally applicable to "shock" aa there is no such thing. Neutrophilia and cytokine production are related to septic shock but not to volume depletive shock which is what you are suggesting, typically at least. Blood loss leading to fever is not a common (read incredibly rare) presentation of shock so it is unlikely that this has occurred

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Sorry to rehash a debate that ended a few pages back, but I just thought I'd post this bit of info from a SSM:

"[Where was Oberyn Martell during the rebellion?]

Good question. Offhand, I don't recall the answer. Maybe in Dorne, maybe across the narrow sea with a sellsword company. I'd have to check my notes to be certain."

I think if George intended for Oberyn to be Jon's father, then he'd remember where he was during the war. This seems to me to put the kibosh on the whole O+L=J theory.

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What you say is true but your post doesnt acknowledge the difference in different forms of shock- there are several forms, namely cardiogenic (insufficient heart pumping to perfuse organs), anaphylactic (severe allergic reaction), septic (response to infection affecting the whole body) and volume depleted (usually blood loss). The symptoms and signs you describe are not universally applicable to "shock" aa there is no such thing. Neutrophilia and cytokine production are related to septic shock but not to volume depletive shock which is what you are suggesting, typically at least. Blood loss leading to fever is not a common (read incredibly rare) presentation of shock so it is unlikely that this has occurred

LOL... point taken... was really meant to help out people who are in the "Lyanna was murdered camp." So I'm cool if this theory is blown out of the water due to being "incredibly rare."

but we are talking about two different worlds... IMO, dragons seem to be a "incredibly rare" in our plane of existence. And although GRRM is very intelligent, he ain't a doctor of medical science... like me, he can skew the symptoms of shock, intentionally or by accident...

I don't recall, did Ser Gregor have symptoms of fever after he was poisoned by Manticore venom?

I understand and acknowledge there could be flaws to that theory as well (timeline, dosage, the fact that poisoning is considered woman-like/cowardly... something the KG would never do)...

Like I said.... just trying to help out the other camp.....

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Has anyone ever talked about what the Kingsguard at the Tower actually say to Ned?

Ned says he thought they would be at Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys. They respond by saying that watshisname is with them a good knight. But they are the Kingsguard and they do not run. They finish by saying "We swore an oath."

Seems to me they are 100% dedicated to their job of protecting the royal family. In this case it is the people inside the tower. Rhaegar ordered them to protect Lyanna at all costs.

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LOL... point taken... was really meant to help out people who are in the "Lyanna was murdered camp." So I'm cool if this theory is blown out of the water due to being "incredibly rare."

but we are talking about two different worlds... IMO, dragons seem to be a "incredibly rare" in our plane of existence. And although GRRM is very intelligent, he ain't a doctor of medical science... like me, he can skew the symptoms of shock, intentionally or by accident...

I don't recall, did Ser Gregor have symptoms of fever after he was poisoned by Manticore venom?

I understand and acknowledge there could be flaws to that theory as well (timeline, dosage, the fact that poisoning is considered woman-like/cowardly... something the KG would never do)...

Like I said.... just trying to help out the other camp.....

Well yeah, if Lyanna were poisoned fever is rather likely- it's a response to a foreign agent usually

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Has anyone ever talked about what the Kingsguard at the Tower actually say to Ned?

Ned says he thought they would be at Dragonstone with the Queen and Viserys. They respond by saying that watshisname is with them a good knight. But they are the Kingsguard and they do not run. They finish by saying "We swore an oath."

Seems to me they are 100% dedicated to their job of protecting the royal family. In this case it is the people inside the tower. Rhaegar ordered them to protect Lyanna at all costs.

Watshisname: "Ser Willem (Darry) is a good man, and true." "But NOT of the King's Guard"

My favorite/ pet parts of the TOJ dialogue: Ser Arthur Dayne has only two lines in the whole exchange:

"Then or NOW", referring to the fact that "the K's G does not flee," and

"And NOW it begins", referring to "We swore a vow"

:idea:

Seems to me (thin, I agree) that his lines have double meaning, the NOW referring to the impending conflict with Ned et al, :fencing: and also it could be referring to two separate heirs, or Kings...the NOW referring to Jon's presence as a member of the royal family...newly added member. :bowdown:

I love this reading, to hear the lines in context: :read:

TOJ reading

emoticon buzz. sorry

A's L

ETA: whoops...3 lines. Forgot "Our knees do not bend easily"

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Re-reading my previous post, I realize I spent nearly half my time talking about LOTR, HP, and SW. Now, for a reprise! :blush:

[R+L=J] doesn't necessarily spell a happy ending, but for me, the circumstances are too convenient to be satisfying.

May I ask what you mean by "circumstances," corporatecake? I wonder if my nonchalance toward the prospect of seeing many disparate threads weave together to reveal R+L=J has to do with my default perspective of interpreting all events in-universe. R+L=J, if true, is a conspiracy hatched by Ned (a most improbable schemer!), Wylla, the Reeds, and the Daynes (who I forgot last time, lol); I tend to assume any coincidences involving these people and the theory result from the intentional actions of characters who know they've a huge secret to protect.

A related but still separate issue, IMO, is what steps GRRM might take to slowly clue the reader in on a possible R+L=J plot twist without being too obvious and prematurely giving away the mystery or being too obscure and (mis)leading folks to confusing dead ends. That's a rather fine line to walk, and I'd consider GRRM successful so long as there's a smidgen of reasonable doubt about R+L=J and plenty of wiggle room within the theory itself. Say, on the issue of whether Rhaegar and Lyanna are married. Or Rhaegar and Lyanna's intentions toward one another.

Even most people who dislike the idea are willing to accept the possibility of R+L=J, whereas people were very adamant about their stance on Snape's loyalties.

So, even people who hate R+L=J with a passion admit the theory's plausible, and yet this somehow means R+L=J is less likely to be true? :huh:

(The above is not directed at you specifically, corporatecake. Just a general impression on my part.)

A more appropriate Harry Potter comparison would be the identity of RAB. Almost everyone in fandom guessed that it was Regulus Black. It seemed like a total no-brainer. Not R+L=J would be like some other wizard having been RAB. Not outside the realm of possibility, but with the potential to be done, and in the hands of a gifted writer, the possibility to be done well.

I somewhat disagree. Not all plots are created equal. To follow your example, if JKR decides RAB is not Regulus Black, what's the point of Regulus's character? Why lay the foundations of Regulus being a Death Eater, his unexplained demise, and a stolen Horcrux that, incidentally, greatly resembles a locket Harry discovers in Grimmauld Place if you intend to trick the reader while implying Regulus's nothing but another loyal DE who fatally loses his nerve? In favor of RAB turning out to be...? A completely new character? An already introduced character, probably a minor one, who pretends to be Regulus? For what purpose? (See Law of Conservation of Detail.)

Granted, you can argue such details are worldbuilding. I, however, would find this reasoning easier to accept if Regulus Black not being RAB, Snape not being Dumbledore's spy on Voldemort, Jon not being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son didn't leave so many character motivations and plot points hanging, in need of some explanation by the author. Which, when given, almost invariably feels far less dramatic and cohesive than the originally proposed theory.

Earlier, I used the question of Snape's allegiances as a comparison to R+L=J because I think the dramatic fallout from either of these theories proving mistaken would be similar. The foreshadowing in both cases has piled up so high, neither can be wholly rejected without cheapening previous notable story elements into meaninglessness, IMO. Snape's admittedly despicable behavior at times becomes one-dimensional villainy if he were revealed to have been on Voldemort's side all along. Not to mention how questionable Dumbledore's ability to judge people seems if he truly, foolishly trusted Snape for nearly two decades when Harry can apparently identify Snape as a traitor after a mere year at Hogwarts. I mean, Occlumency aside, who has more inside knowledge of Snape? Likewise, opponents of R+L=J must present a satisfying rationalization of Ned's constant angst about his promises to Lyanna and why the oddest situations (e.g. Sansa pleading for Lady's life) remind him of his late sister. Then there's the matter of accounting for Rhaegar's part in this whole debacle. He's just as batty as his father in the end? Well, I guess those glowing character testimonials of Rhaegar given by Jorah and Barristan to Dany are all lies. Jorah's honor is malleable, but Barristan's?

I suppose I simply prefer the lasting satisfaction of an intricate narrative cleverly incorporated into the main storyline and with epic rewards over the immediate gratification of a totally unpredictable conclusion that undermines a good chunk of the existing story for the sake of not being "cliched." Put another way, which contributes more to the experience of re-reading ASOIAF? I imagine one significant reason why everyone here spends so much time reviewing the Tower of Joy dream or Dany's House of the Undying visions or any other chapter in the series is because there's a strong belief that GRRM leaves helpful hints.

Kadence, yeah, I love the idea of messing with Jon's head, lol. Actually, assuming R+L=J, I figure the hardest facts for Jon to reconcile himself to would be Ned's part in it all. Ned's taken a lot of flak on these boards for keeping Catelyn and Jon in the dark, allowing Jon to join the Night's Watch without attempting to clear his parentage up, etc. And us posters have much less of an emotional stake in the matter than Jon. I definitely expect anger, denial, and feelings of betrayal here. Think Luke and Obi-wan on Anakin/Vader.

Regarding Aragorn and Arwen, there's great stuff in the appendices, Appendix A especially. Not to stray too far off-topic, but I can see Jon in this description of Aragorn: "With [Gandalf] he made many perilous journeys, but as the years wore on he went more often alone. His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile..." And I hope either Jon or Dany, preferably Jon, ends up like Arwen: "Arwen became as a mortal woman, and yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost." The story of Gilraen, Aragorn's mother, married and widowed young, is quite moving, too: "I am aged by care, even as one of lesser Men; and now that it draws near I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle-earth. I shall leave it soon." Her parting lesson to Aragorn, IMO, is that those who would light the way for others must suffer burning themselves. Just not in so many words, lol.

I just think the notion of not being allowed to marry is pretty crazy and way too big a limiting factor to the Watch's size. Especially for those that volunteer for the Watch. Why would anyone be crazy enough to volunteer to freeze your tail off miserably, without lover or family, and no social prestige (like a Kingsguard)?

Still, I think allowing the men of the NW lovers and families introduces too many potentially fatal complications to their primary duty of guarding the realm from the Others. I guess that leaves somehow raising the prestige of the NW...

Funny you should mention the Kingsguard. Jaime's a good argument for young men aspiring to join that organization when it's generally considered representative of the best knights in the Seven Kingdoms. That's probably what you meant, actually, lol. I have no idea how the NW might maintain such an attractive image while still serving as a life sentence for criminals. Parole incentives based on severity of crime? Though that kind of defeats the purpose of taking the black giving you a clean slate. Perhaps the NW ought to study the recruiting efforts of the French Foreign Legion? ^_^

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This is my first post, but I mainly came to this forum to see what people's thoughts were on the R+L = J theory.

I've read through this thread, and I am a definite believer in the theory, especially due to the Tower of Joy scene (thank you for providing that youtube reading, by the way!) and Dany's vision about the blue rose growing in a wall of ice and filling the air with sweetness.

However, I am ashamed to admit that the thought didn't occur to me at all when I first read through the books. My friend started reading after the first episode of Game of Thrones, however, and she decided Rhaegar and Lyanna had to be Jon's parents during Ned and Robert's discussion about Wylla simply because "Ned would never be so weird around Robert otherwise." That plus Jon looking like Arya who looked like Lyanna made me frantically scour the interwebs to see what everyone else thought. And now that I see that it's such a popular theory, I feel kind of dumb for not thinking it before.

As far as the 'obviousness' of the theory causing it not to be true, I think others have already mentioned the difference between a theory having evidence to support it and being too obvious. In order for the revelation of Jon's parentage to have any impact whatsoever, there must have been seeds planted for it beforehand that can grow to fruition. And the only other options I can recall from the books are either Ashara or Wylla - both of whom have explicitly been mentioned as possibilities. So one of those two ladies being Jon's mother would technically be even more obvious than Lyanna, and some other fourth option coming out of nowhere would be completely unsatisfying since the books have not been leading up to it.

...And that's all I have to say for now. Hello, everyone!

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2) Jon finds out and doesn't care, and he remains in the Night's Watch

This is most likely I think. I think the revelation probably means something to Dany, and to him personally in the prism of what his dad had to go through, but that's it.

Him being revealed as an heir and ending as a king would be the fantasy cliche.

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