Jump to content

R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

Recommended Posts

May I ask what you mean by "circumstances," corporatecake? I wonder if my nonchalance toward the prospect of seeing many disparate threads weave together to reveal R+L=J has to do with my default perspective of interpreting all events in-universe. R+L=J, if true, is a conspiracy hatched by Ned (a most improbable schemer!), Wylla, the Reeds, and the Daynes (who I forgot last time, lol); I tend to assume any coincidences involving these people and the theory result from the intentional actions of characters who know they've a huge secret to protect.

A related but still separate issue, IMO, is what steps GRRM might take to slowly clue the reader in on a possible R+L=J plot twist without being too obvious and prematurely giving away the mystery or being too obscure and (mis)leading folks to confusing dead ends. That's a rather fine line to walk, and I'd consider GRRM successful so long as there's a smidgen of reasonable doubt about R+L=J and plenty of wiggle room within the theory itself. Say, on the issue of whether Rhaegar and Lyanna are married. Or Rhaegar and Lyanna's intentions toward one another.

When I say that the circumstances are too convenient, I mean this.

Dany wants to rule Westeros. However, since she's allegedly barren, if she reclaims the Iron Throne for the Targaryens, she's still going to have succession problems within a generation.

Hey, what do you know! It turns out her brother Rhaegar had a secret love child. You know who that just so happens to be? Another major character we've been following!

A lot of my distaste for R+L=J comes from the fact that, with the exception of Aemon, the Targaryens have a huge sense of entitlement, and that's my least favorite thing about Dany. Jon definitely has his place in the story, but I want him to earn it, not to get it handed to him because his dad happened to be Rhaegar.

GRRM has definitely been successful in terms of cluing in the reader slowly, as well as leaving possibility open for R+L=J not to be true. However, for R+L=J to be satisfying, for me as a reader, GRRM's going to have to subvert a lot of expectations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will say that I think that Jon being Rhaegar + Lyanna's son would create more problems than solutions for John, at least initially. Melisandre might want to burn him since he is royal blood, or else she might think he is her Azor Ahai and try to force his hand into doing more creepy evil things. And Dany might not like the idea of another claim to the Targaryen throne and want to get rid of Jon, or else she might try to force him out of his vows to reproduce some more 'dragons,' etc.

Or it might not matter at all and just give Jon some peace of mind relating to his family. Or it might be explained by Howland Reed and then never actually get to Jon, haha.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

!

A lot of my distaste for R+L=J comes from the fact that, with the exception of Aemon, the Targaryens have a huge sense of entitlement, and that's my least favorite thing about Dany. Jon definitely has his place in the story, but I want him to earn it, not to get it handed to him because his dad happened to be Rhaegar.

GRRM has definitely been successful in terms of cluing in the reader slowly, as well as leaving possibility open for R+L=J not to be true. However, for R+L=J to be satisfying, for me as a reader, GRRM's going to have to subvert a lot of expectations.

I completely agree and I feel that Rhaegar being his father will be more harmful to Jon than good if it gets out. Also I think that Jon has a MASSIVE, Jaime on his worst day, sense of entitlement so far in the books which he will hopefully grow out of when Stannis turns against him and Mel tries to burn him alive for his blood. It's one of the Targesque features I see in him

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will say that I think that Jon being Rhaegar + Lyanna's son would create more problems than solutions for John, at least initially. Melisandre might want to burn him since he is royal blood, or else she might think he is her Azor Ahai and try to force his hand into doing more creepy evil things. And Dany might not like the idea of another claim to the Targaryen throne and want to get rid of Jon, or else she might try to force him out of his vows to reproduce some more 'dragons,' etc.

Or it might not matter at all and just give Jon some peace of mind relating to his family. Or it might be explained by Howland Reed and then never actually get to Jon, haha.

You stole my ideas! Great minds eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2) Jon finds out and doesn't care, and he remains in the Night's Watch

Or a variation on this theme such as "Jon finds out an cares a great deal, but after much soul searching he decides he must stay a member of the Night's Watch and do what is needed to defeat the Others. He then dies." which is where I think we're headed.

Sorry, to be so gloomy, but Dolorous Ed and I have a lot in common

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jon being a Targ will still fit the story, as will Dany being barren. Jon will probably die and the Targ bloodline will as well. They sort of exist to fight this last battle and will serve that purpose. No need for dragons when the Others are all dead. Just my prediction

Link to comment
Share on other sites

read and re-read all theories and the books and it simply is not possible for John to be a Targ, a long explanation why i sau so, so do bare with me.

The story itself is not about starks, lenisters or targs. The story shows the power of pupet masters, Varys and Littlefinger. Both of them have their own agendas and my take is both will come head on at the finale to see whos chooses one will rule Westoroes.

We already know Littlefinger is grooming Sansa stark for leadership,i.e to be queen and am assuming Varyas is doing the same. He serves the realm so he knows exactly what kind of leader is needed for the realm so he is watching the young targ grow and waiting till he is ready. By the age limit young prince must now be of similar age to Deni and ready to rule alongside her.

You might then ask why did he or little finger watch while the mad king was overthrowm, the reason is simple he is the mad king and varys specially must have felt childeren must be seperated from the father if he had any hope of preventing them growing into madness too. Also in a convo with Ned Little finger mentions about not fighting a loosing war, hence it was smart for varyas to stand aside and watch and wait for the time and the time is now.

Now that he knows both Deni and young prince are ready to rule he is slowly clearing all the main dangers out of the way. Ned, Tywin, Robert and Tyrion are the real danger and powerhouse that could have taken on the targs and defeated them. Not only did Varys eliminate them but with the help of little finger has set them agasint each other, making it impossible for them to come together and fight the targs when they strike.

Nothing seems to escape Varys. It is often said why he does not seem to know about Sansa, my take is he does. He and little finger are playing their own game with a gentlemen's agreement if you like. Varys knows if he baits Littlefinger his game will be up too and for the time being they can not take each other out. So he prefers not to know where Sansa is.

Now lets go back to the theory of Johns parents. If Ned was his protector and guardian and has protected a targ child from Robert and lenisters then Varyas will know everything. I simply can not buy the fact a spy master like him will have turned a blind eye to such a huge event that could have huge consequences later on. Varys sets up Ned to be executed, if John was the young targ then this is stupid and madness you will not expect from a calculating politician. Despite the dragons and unsullied army targs will still need help in the North and what better way then to save Ned who commands the North and unite him with John and let them march against the lenisters from the North while Deni Takes them from the south. So for some one who is so politically calculating it would be a gross error. Varys also knows Johns life is at risk and Lenisters have set out people in the NW to take him so if Jon was the young targ Ned would have served better on the wall watching over John. Another risk is John might do something silly, which he almost did, to avenge his fathers life and risk his own life. So again for a calculating master this is not a good move. So all that shows that Ned/John has no connection to Targs of any sort and Varys wanted them out of the way for the eventual return of Deni and her uncle.

It is also interesting to note that the small council seems to be very fond of Highgarden and signs are they are working closely with them. So if you are looking for a young targ your more likely to find him in High garden then the wall

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you might ask why i think varys and LF prefer targs? well they seems to have no interest in them being the leader, its between targs, lenisters and starks. Varys has shown he has no loyality towards lenisters or starks. he served robert so he can control events and wait till the young targs are ready, whereas LF wants to prove that he can de anything including playing king maker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi everyone, first post here, so forgive me if I say something out of bounds. I'm trying my best not to.

Have to say, first of all, very excited to find this thread. My sister pitched the idea to me a while ago, and upon a couple of re-reads I'm just believing it more and more. But it was only my sister who every thought that R + L =J, everyone else I've met who have read the books hasn't even considered it. To come on and find a whole series of threads, nearly a damn thesis, on the topic made me stupidly excited.

Have attempted to read everything. Have sort of failed in this attempt, and I'm sorry for it. I'm still sorting out the language of this board, so some of it didn't make 100% sense, but it will on a reread, of this I'm sure.

Enough about me, though.

From my understanding of the argument, it seems to rest on characteristics of those in question. Would Ned lie to Cat, would he lie? Why would he lie? Does Jon have anything in common with a Targ? What does it mean to be a Targ, seems to be more prudent, though.

Well, to Ned, I believe it does come down to what makes Ned lie, and what he really knew about his good friend Robert. Robert was so incensed by the idea that Rhaeger got Lyanna that he fought a war for her. Yes, yes, there were other reasons, a mad king and all that, but at the heart of it I get the impression that for Robert it was all about not getting the woman that he wanted. Robert, who hates the Targs so much that he wanted to kill a child in another country because that family 'killed' his Lyanna. The lives of children aren't important to Robert, not as they are to Ned. Ned gave Cersei time to leave with her incest children so as to avoid them being killed by Robert. Ned lied at Baelor's sept because he believed it would save his daughters' lives, his childrens' lives. Has anyone ever considered that Lyanna might have eloped? That Rhaegor in all his jousting glory, who gave her his favour and seemed so Princely, might have appealed more to a 16-year-old girl than, well, Robert? From what I've read of Rhaegor, I think I might have prefered him to Robert, especially if he sweet talked 16-year-old me. For all we know, Lyanna could have had a lot in common with Sansa. Or any other 16-year-old girl, for that matter.

So, if Lyanna dies in childbirth, and her last act is to give her child to Ned and beg her brother to protect her son, I think Ned would lie. Because there's Robert, right there and if Lyanna and Rhaeger were married (as I could believe they were) what you have is the rightful heir, rather than Robert. But not just Robert, didn't Tywin just order the deaths of two babies and any other Targ?

As for trusting Cat, Ned barely knew her when he left for war. Love like that takes time. And by the time it's there, maybe it would be a little too late and a little too complicated to introduce the concept of a Targ amongst them. Maybe Ned thought it would be safer to let things lie as they were. And as we know, Jon wouldn't be the first Targ heir to go sit on the Wall. Ned did his best to keep him safe.

As to Jon having anything in common with a Targ, well, does Dany have anything in common? Do we know what it is to be a Targ? Really? They're all dead or were obviously insane. Dany grew up being told what to be, and only really changed and grew out of defiance of her brother, and what she needed to be to survive as kahlessi. I think she's more a product of nurture rather than nature. And I think Jon is the same. He's half a Stark and been raised that way, could anyone in that family be any different.

Lastly, though, the most telling fact I believe is in the first book. Ned describes seeing Lyanna for the last time in a 'bed of blood.' In the very next chapter I am near positive that Cersei describes giving birth as a 'bed of blood'. No other time that I know has that phrase been used other than to describe childbirth. So if not Jon, there's bound to be some child of Lyanna's out there.

Anyway, I bet this has all been said before, possibly in many different ways. But I just got a little excited and wanted to add my two cents like everyone else. How this will all wrap up completely confuses me, though. My sister is convinced it's in the title of the books. That Jon (Ice) will rule with Dany (Fire). So the title is like a lead to a ballad, or something. I just struggle with the idea that Jon made a vow to the Night's Watch, and they've already established how important that vow is. But I don't know. And it's that I don't know that has me trying to work out the fastest way to get my hands on that next book. I wish we had a fast cheap bookservice in Australia. *sigh*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How this will all wrap up completely confuses me, though. My sister is convinced it's in the title of the books. That Jon (Ice) will rule with Dany (Fire). So the title is like a lead to a ballad, or something. I just struggle with the idea that Jon made a vow to the Night's Watch, and they've already established how important that vow is. But I don't know. And it's that I don't know that has me trying to work out the fastest way to get my hands on that next book. I wish we had a fast cheap bookservice in Australia. *sigh*

First of all, welcome to the boards!

As for your sister's theory, the title doesn't actually say that Ice and Fire will end up ruling Westeros together. It could just be that they are very important to the story. So you could still have Jon/Ice and Dany/Fire as the most important characters without Jon ever breaking his vow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jon will not break his vow, he had his chance he never did, he is not going to do for a family he never knew, Ice is Sansa, she is growing by every day in to a very cunny can calculating women, LF will turn her into a powerful person. Fire is not deny, her story line is all about tragedy and she will face a tragic end with her dragons. Expecting the young Targ of varys and Sansa to be wedded and rule together making the ice and fire

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, welcome to the boards!

As for your sister's theory, the title doesn't actually say that Ice and Fire will end up ruling Westeros together. It could just be that they are very important to the story. So you could still have Jon/Ice and Dany/Fire as the most important characters without Jon ever breaking his vow.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yeah, you're right. And the title could just be dragons and a frozen wall. Or it could be multi-meaning or it could cause my head to implode. I'm voting on the head implosion.

I was once a fan of a series that I started reading when I was 10, and she still hasn't finished it, and there are only 5 books in the series. (It was supposed to be three, the book released in 2008 was supposed to be the last, it was number 5.) And we talked every single sentence to death. I think we ended up making the series more complicated than it will end up being.

Not that I think GRRM will write something that isn't complicated and brilliant, just that I think desperation for information can drive a mind to over-complicated the not so complicated stuff. :D Ice and Fire might be just that, there's ice and there's fire, of which there appears to be plenty of both in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jon will not break his vow,

Do you consider his time spent with Ygritte as not breaking his vow and remaining chaste?

I realize he fought with the guilt of his lapses and was exonerated by his election to 998th LC, but still, technically, wasn't his vow breached?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kinghenry-

First of all, welcome to the boards.

Second, I think you err in assuming Varys must know if Jon is Ned's son. Varys isn't omniscient. He certainly didn't even know where Rhaegar was during the war before he came back, unless he was lying to the king. And his spymaster abilities rely on, well, spies. Spies who are able to send and receive ravens, usually. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in some isolated location (say, some sort of tower in the mountains of Dorne, which may or may not be of joy) where ravens had never been trained to find, and where there were very few if any people, then Varys wouldn't really have any way of knowing about Jon. And if Varys doesn't know about Jon, then your entire argument falls apart. It's a rather large assumption that your objection to the theory rests on, which is exactly why it's a bit suspect, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you consider his time spent with Ygritte as not breaking his vow and remaining chaste?

I realize he fought with the guilt of his lapses and was exonerated by his election to 998th LC, but still, technically, wasn't his vow breached?

I don't believe so... he was told by Halfhand to live and fight amongst the wild people....

Although Jon had inner turmoil, he was obeying his NW superior... certainly killing Halfhand would also mean he broke his vows... but he did all of this in the name of duty to the NW... NOT for personal gain or advancement.....

Did he have internal struggles on how to proceed after he fell in love? Abso-freakin'-lutely he did.... but he came around and stayed true to his vows after his mission for the NW was done....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The story itself is not about starks, lenisters or targs. The story shows the power of pupet masters, Varys and Littlefinger. Both of them have their own agendas and my take is both will come head on at the finale to see whos chooses one will rule Westoroes.

Actually, I think the story is (in part) about the fragility of schemes and plotting, especially because of the seemingly cruel randomness of life.

But to go into LF and Vary's various schemes is a bit off topic. I'm sure they'll both see their plans undone in ways they (probably) never expected.

As for whether Varys knew about R+L is completely unknown. Intelligence networks take time and planning to establish. Dragonfish is right, we really have no indication of Varys' abilities or influence at that time. (on a side note, don't ravens simply have to be raised in a location, and are then released carrying a message for that location, much like homing pigeons are today?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...