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R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

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I think that by the "last battles of the war" that Ned fought "alone in the south," he means the ToJ.

It likely includes that, but it almost definitely means more than that. He had to go south to relieve Stannis at Storm's End, and he probably had to wipe up any remaining minor loyalist forces that still remained in the south (leftovers from broken armies, etc.).

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If R+L=J, a lot of people were thinking that only one still alive who might know would be Howland Reed. But, wouldn't Benjen have a good idea?

Even if Eddard told his brother, Benjen's story would be second hand information, i.e. Benjen wasn't at the ToJ. So Benjen's words may not suffice; he would still need some evidence to back up his story. :thumbsup:

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Hello everyone. First post, so bear with me...

In this theory, Sean Bean himself has already said that Ned is NOT Jon's father during an interview a week or two before the season finale. The show is not canon, obviously, but looking at the relative accuracy of the series, I think it's safe to say that there won't be any deviation in a theory as large as this one (biggest one of the series, or am I wrong?).

My personal thoughts...

1. Regardless of circumstances leading up to it, I definitely see Rhaegar as falling for Lyanna during the tourney, possibly a bit before. Rhaegar seems to differ vastly from the rest of his family/ancestors in regards to temperment, so I don't really see him falling in love at first sight as out of character. Cementing this thought for me is his (albeit disputed) desire to father one more child, if you believe the three-headed dragon theory.

2. I've seen people with the whole "Targs can't burn" thing on here, but I really think that was just a character aspect stressed by the show to really drive home the "mother of dragons" point and Viserys's "golden crown". There isn't much evidence in the books at all to support that claim, so I don't really think it can prove or debunk the RLJ theory.

3. I may have missed it if someone posted it before, but Jojen asked Bran at least twice if he was SURE his father didn't tell him the tourney story. It's kind of a stretch, but not impossible that Meera and Jojen know Jon's true parentage. Not saying that Howland Reed told his kids (if he even knew), but I wouldn't say those two (creepy) kids aren't smart enough to figure it out on their own...there may be some elements that we just don't know about yet that the do.

4. To the folks that say Ned wouldn't have told Catelyn about Jon's (possible) parents, I say kudos. I agree that he wouldn't have, because he knows his wife and the lengths she would go to in certain dire circumstances. Just remember the Tully motto...

5. As for Jon receiving a direwolf despite this theory holding true, he is still part Stark. Just because he's not full Stark doesn't mean he can't have that same connection. Is there a reason beyond bastardy that the albino wolf was separate? Who knows. May just be coincidence, or it may be that he's "lighter" (in heritage) than the other Stark children.

Addendum: I really hope Roose Bolton and the Late Lord Frey get it, and GOOD.

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Hello everyone. First post, so bear with me...

In this theory, Sean Bean himself has already said that Ned is NOT Jon's father during an interview a week or two before the season finale. The show is not canon, obviously, but looking at the relative accuracy of the series, I think it's safe to say that there won't be any deviation in a theory as large as this one (biggest one of the series, or am I wrong?).

Addendum: I really hope Roose Bolton and the Late Lord Frey get it, and GOOD.

As to Sean Bean, did he? I think people would bring it up here. I may have missed it, as I have been not very diligent in keeping up with the news.

In regard to Bolton and Frey, I agree, though I tend to have a certain grudging respect for all intelligent people I read about, and this includes Bolton.

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And, Benjen was not around Ned for very long. After NEd returned from the ToJ Benjen took off after a couple months tops, if I recall. Between the morning of the death of their sister, Ned getting to know Cat, taking over his lordly responsibilities at Winterfell and seeing to his bannerman's needs from returning from war, I don't suspect that Ned had a ton of time to discuss everything with Benjen. I will say, I think he would be more willing to tell Benjen than Cat at this time however.

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I'm not sure if this is an original angle (still fairly new here), but Jon burns his hand throwing fire at a wight. Since Jon is neither unburnt, nor crazy, isn't that evidence that he can't be a dragon?

Also, while I'm not against the R + L theory, alot of people seem to build it up as though they loved each other. Isn't it entirely possible and probable that Rhaegar just raped her?

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Though I'm liking the idea that was raised on a different thread, that Lyanna confided in Benjen but he either didn't or couldn't pass on the info to anyone else (and ended up wracked with guilt that he didn't explain that they were consensually eloping).

If Benjen does know something, the trick would be finding him!

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I'm not sure if this is an original angle (still fairly new here), but Jon burns his hand throwing fire at a wight. Since Jon is neither unburnt, nor crazy, isn't that evidence that he can't be a dragon?

Also, while I'm not against the R + L theory, alot of people seem to build it up as though they loved each other. Isn't it entirely possible and probable that Rhaegar just raped her?

Targs aren't all crazy. Look at Dany. Rhaegar and Aegon the Conqueror. They did have some nut jobs. No denying that. But the craziness is not a determining factor of a Targ. Jon being burned, also is not a strike against him being a Targ. Targ's aren't immune to fire. Viserys died from molten gold, I believe at least one Targ died from drinking wildfire etc etc. GRRM has already stated that Dany's funeral pier for Drogo and the baby dragons being born with her unburnt was a one time, miraculous event. While Dany likes HOT baths and heat etc etc she is not immune to fire. No Targs are.

It is possible that Rhaegar raper her, yes. But with all the information we have that lead us in this theories direction, it seems more possible and likely that it was a mutual thing. This doesn't rule out rape. But Lyanna seems to be attracted to Rhaegar, is around 16 or so, making this her (most likely) first romance and sexual encounter. Rhaegar is by all memories an attractive man physically and incredibly smart/witty/charming and thought I can't recall the info, I believe that when he crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty (or WTF ever it was lol) she is smitten with him (or perhaps this is later). Lyanna is also described as having "wolf's blood" meaning that she was a very free spirit who was strong willed to do what she wanted (think of Arya with less murder, more love). If this is true (and we have no reason to believe it is not), it would be a challenge to abduct her, rape her, keep her stuffed in hiding for around a year and never have an issue. Rhaegar was most likely with her the majority of the time as well. We know this because he "returns from the south" to take over the Targ army. The ToJ is south and where Ned finds Lyanna and has the fight with Oswell, The Bull and The Sword of the Morning.

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Quite a few people also think that Meera and Jojen might be party to the knowledge as well.

Ned is far more likely to have told Benjen than Cat at that stage.

It's also plausible that Lyanna had talked to Benjen about being unhappy at the arranged marriage and being in love with Rhaegar; though of course, there are no hints of this that I can recall (more likely than she'd be to confide in Ned anyway; seeing as how Ned is Robert's best friend/pseudo-brother).

Of course, if Benjen does know at least part of the story, and is Coldhands (very common theory) and Meera/Jojen know some of the story, then there's a perfect reveal there for the books - especially if neither had enough knowledge to put 2 and 2 together to make Jon, but could together.

As for strength of the evidence, being 2nd hand rather than direct - why does that matter? the potential knowledge of R+L=J doesn't mean to actually MEAN anything, given that he's already bound by his NW vows; and GRRM's fondness for turning cliches on their heads. This is why I actually favour the theory; the cliche is for this hidden prince to claim his destiny/birthright the best way of turning this on it's head GRRM-style, is to have the hidden prince ignore his destiny/birthright and let the realm go to hell in a handbasket (or maybe use Dany's dragons to defend the wall, but not to leave the wall himself)

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isn't unlawfully abducting and carrying off a bride one of the ancient definitions of rape (cf. "rape of the Sabine women")?

I never considered kidnapping Lyanna as rape. Rape is rape. Kidnapping is kidnapping. That being said, we don't know (and even doubt) that Rhaegar abducted her and in all actuality she very well may have gone with him on her own. All of this is conjecture, both for and against Lyanna being raped, kidnapped vs going along with it and wanting to have sex with Rhaegar.

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isn't unlawfully abducting and carrying off a bride one of the ancient definitions of rape (cf. "rape of the Sabine women")?

It also used to be a way second/third sons used to get wives of good breeding/money, groups of them used to group together in clubs and steal themselves brides. Its one of those things that depending on the people, their opinion and the end result it can finish in shame, marriage or war.

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My personal thoughts...

2. I've seen people with the whole "Targs can't burn" thing on here, but I really think that was just a character aspect stressed by the show to really drive home the "mother of dragons" point and Viserys's "golden crown". There isn't much evidence in the books at all to support that claim, so I don't really think it can prove or debunk the RLJ theory.

4. To the folks that say Ned wouldn't have told Catelyn about Jon's (possible) parents, I say kudos. I agree that he wouldn't have, because he knows his wife and the lengths she would go to in certain dire circumstances. Just remember the Tully motto...

5. As for Jon receiving a direwolf despite this theory holding true, he is still part Stark. Just because he's not full Stark doesn't mean he can't have that same connection. Is there a reason beyond bastardy that the albino wolf was separate? Who knows. May just be coincidence, or it may be that he's "lighter" (in heritage) than the other Stark children.

Addendum: I really hope Roose Bolton and the Late Lord Frey get it, and GOOD.

Just as a point of order, if Jon is the son of Lyanna rather than of Ned, he is still exactly the same percentage Stark as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran & Richon - 50%. He would not be "less" Stark. But it is interesting that his Wolf is white. B) Clearly, he is a different kind of Stark than the children of Ned & Cat.

I think the "Targs can't burn" trope is just because of Dany & the Dragons, which was an extordinary event. Clearly, Viserys could burn. And even if Jon is 50% Targ, in this case he actually is less Targ than Dany because she is 100% what with the Targ inbreeding.

I think the main reason that Ned didn't tell Cat is that he was probably protecting her. It is a dangerous secret, and his honor simply wouldn't allow it. I do wonder how differently she would have treated him if she had known?

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I know this has been discussed before, but I'm new to the novels and just wanted to talk about my theory on Jon Snow's birth.

I believe that Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar. Ned said it himself that she had a touch of wildness in her and would have even toted a sword if her father had permitted it. Lyanna clearly had reservations about marrying Robert because of his womanizing ways. The only person to ever actually state that Rhaegar raped her was Robert, and I think it was just because he was infatuated with her.

So what I think happened is that Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar and became pregnant with Jon. It's entirely possible that he took after Lyanna instead of Rhaegar, because Ned's own children look all like Catelyn(except for Arya), and nothing like him. In the first book Tyrion notes that Jon has the Stark face and that whoever his mother was, she left nothing of herself in her son. What if it was the opposite though, and it was the father that left nothing in his son and Jon only takes after Lyanna?

It never said how Lyanna died, but I think she died in childbirth, and I think the promise that she kept insisting Ned keep was for him to never tell anyone about her giving birth to Jon. The reason I think she wanted Ned to never tell anyone that, is because Rhaegar was already dead and his true born children had been murdered, and she knew that her baby would have the same fate. Robert called them "dragonspawn", and felt no remorse for their deaths. He even wanted to kill Dany and her unborn child, both innocents. What would stop him from killing Rhaegar's bastard? He would insist that the child was the product of rape, and dragonspawn. This is also why I think Ned would never speak of who Jon's mother was, even to Catelyn, it's so that Robert would never find out. Ned also seemed to have too much honor to be an adulterer, and he also treated Jon much better than any other man would treat a baseborn child.

I've seen some other people speculating that Jon will meet Dany someday. That may be true, after all the series title is called a Song of Ice and Fire. The Targaryens are the fire, and Stark is the ice.

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I think Benjen knew about it, after all he said the magic words:

“We’ll speak when I return.”

But joke aside, I think there is a big chance he was awre of it, and even if Ned didnt told him, I think he still would guess it. If I remember correctly he was the one who teased Lyanna about Rhaegar so he must have noticed that something is going on. And he knew Ned as well, so even if Ned didnt tell him, since he knew the said people above he could still add two and two together.

By the way, if the R+L=J is not true and Jon is for example Ned's son (though I think R+L=J is the most possible one), I still think Benjen would be aware who is his mother.

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I think Benjen knew about it, after all he said the magic words:

But joke aside, I think there is a big chance he was awre of it, and even if Ned didnt told him, I think he still would guess it. If I remember correctly he was the one who teased Lyanna about Rhaegar so he must have noticed that something is going on. And he knew Ned as well, so even if Ned didnt tell him, since he knew the said people above he could still add two and two together.

By the way, if the R+L=J is not true and Jon is for example Ned's son (though I think R+L=J is the most possible one), I still think Benjen would be aware who is his mother.

It is possible that R+L!=J, but that there is a R+L child out there. Young Griff, or the young Dornish Prince could be candidates for a R+L offspring, in which case J = N+A (or N+W). It's also possible that R+L=J, and either Young Griff or the young Dornish Price are offspring of N+A (or N+W).

GH

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isn't unlawfully abducting and carrying off a bride one of the ancient definitions of rape (cf. "rape of the Sabine women")?

By ancient law, most certainly. However, the meaning of the word has changed to include "unwillingly" as a sinequanon. While we could use the "old" meaning of the word, it would make discussion on the boards really messy.

However, I agree that the writer may have toyed with the readers with that particular technicality. ("Yes, it was a rape by Westerosi law, but Lyanna gave her consent to it, so it was unlawful still but not evil")

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