Jump to content

R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

Recommended Posts

First time poster

So in support of the R + L = J thread

i know there is a scene where someone sees a dragon in the crypt of winterfell

we know that john has a secret to learn about himself in the crypt of winterfell

could it be that this dragon was supposed to prophesize a dragon being born i.e. john snow learning his true identity as a targaryen?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, while I'm not against the R + L theory, alot of people seem to build it up as though they loved each other. Isn't it entirely possible and probable that Rhaegar just raped her?

If you are as ignorant and blind as Robert then yes, its probable. :rolleyes:

That isn't intended to be a personal commentary BTW. But the only person who has the faintest suggestion of rape is Robert, who is a) irrational on the subject of Targaryens, b ) totally consumed with an obviously objectified love for Lyanna and c) the blindest and most ignorant idiot in the whole seven kingdoms.

Oh, and a kid who was born years after the event and just parrots the official history. Robert being the official in question.

Every single other statement or memory related to the events is inconsistent with Rhaegar raping Lyanna. Except perhaps the reaction of Brandon but a) we don't actually know what he heard or believed and b ) there are plausible explanations for his actions that don't involve rape.

If you pay any attention to what anybody other than Robert says or thinks, then even the possibility is pretty damn remote. But it is not impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys vision in the House of the Undying appears to show her brother, Rhaegar, addressing a woman who is holding a baby that he refers to as their song of ice and fire. If this is an accurate vision then we know Rhaegar was fortunate enough to embrace the presence of his child before having to leave for his battle with Robert Baratheon. Considering the time it would take him to travel from the Tower of Joy to the Trident, wouldn't Lyanna herself have had enough time to get cleaned up after giving birth?

My impression is that Rhaegar's defeat took place pretty close (if not just before) to the time that Ned got to his sister. So, if Rhaegar's been gone for days, why does Ned's last memory of Lyanna recall how bloody she is? Has Lyanna learned of Rhaegar's death and, despondent, seize upon her brother's arrival to initiate a chain of events that ensures her son's survival, including murdering herself? Lyanna's personality has been compared to Arya's, and murdering herself kind of presents a nice antithesis to Arya who tends to murder other people (but only when she has to). Gods willing, we will learn what really happened here, but until that day happens I know that I don't believe childbirth killed a Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys vision in the House of the Undying appears to show her brother, Rhaegar, addressing a woman who is holding a baby that he refers to as their song of ice and fire. If this is an accurate vision then we know Rhaegar was fortunate enough to embrace the presence of his child before having to leave for his battle with Robert Baratheon. Considering the time it would take him to travel from the Tower of Joy to the Trident, wouldn't Lyanna herself have had enough time to get cleaned up after giving birth?

My impression is that Rhaegar's defeat took place pretty close (if not just before) to the time that Ned got to his sister. So, if Rhaegar's been gone for days, why does Ned's last memory of Lyanna recall how bloody she is? Has Lyanna learned of Rhaegar's death and, despondent, seize upon her brother's arrival to initiate a chain of events that ensures her son's survival, including murdering herself? Lyanna's personality has been compared to Arya's, and murdering herself kind of presents a nice antithesis to Arya who tends to murder other people (but only when she has to). Gods willing, we will learn what really happened here, but until that day happens I know that I don't believe childbirth killed a Stark.

Ned was with Robert when he killed Rhaegar then Ned went in place of Robert to the Kings landing b/c Robert was hurt and after that Ned went to The Tower of Joy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys vision in the House of the Undying appears to show her brother, Rhaegar, addressing a woman who is holding a baby that he refers to as their song of ice and fire. If this is an accurate vision then we know Rhaegar was fortunate enough to embrace the presence of his child before having to leave for his battle with Robert Baratheon. Considering the time it would take him to travel from the Tower of Joy to the Trident, wouldn't Lyanna herself have had enough time to get cleaned up after giving birth?

My impression is that Rhaegar's defeat took place pretty close (if not just before) to the time that Ned got to his sister. So, if Rhaegar's been gone for days, why does Ned's last memory of Lyanna recall how bloody she is? Has Lyanna learned of Rhaegar's death and, despondent, seize upon her brother's arrival to initiate a chain of events that ensures her son's survival, including murdering herself? Lyanna's personality has been compared to Arya's, and murdering herself kind of presents a nice antithesis to Arya who tends to murder other people (but only when she has to). Gods willing, we will learn what really happened here, but until that day happens I know that I don't believe childbirth killed a Stark.

You've spun quite a tale here, but the woman in Dany's vision was Princess Elia, and the child baby Aegon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys vision in the House of the Undying appears to show her brother, Rhaegar, addressing a woman who is holding a baby that he refers to as their song of ice and fire. If this is an accurate vision then we know Rhaegar was fortunate enough to embrace the presence of his child before having to leave for his battle with Robert Baratheon. Considering the time it would take him to travel from the Tower of Joy to the Trident, wouldn't Lyanna herself have had enough time to get cleaned up after giving birth?

My impression is that Rhaegar's defeat took place pretty close (if not just before) to the time that Ned got to his sister. So, if Rhaegar's been gone for days, why does Ned's last memory of Lyanna recall how bloody she is? Has Lyanna learned of Rhaegar's death and, despondent, seize upon her brother's arrival to initiate a chain of events that ensures her son's survival, including murdering herself? Lyanna's personality has been compared to Arya's, and murdering herself kind of presents a nice antithesis to Arya who tends to murder other people (but only when she has to). Gods willing, we will learn what really happened here, but until that day happens I know that I don't believe childbirth killed a Stark.

Hmmm interesting theory since if Lyanna lived it would have been harder to protect any child that she had by Rhaegar (i.e it would be obvious that they had a kid v.s. the commonly held belief that the baby Ned showed up with was his). But as for that specific image you pointed out, I think GRRM himself said at one of his events that the woman in that scene is Elia. That said I think it was shortly after this point that Rhaegar would have had to have left for the TOJ because if that is Elia making the baby Aegon, then events would have to progress swiftly since Aegon was still a baby when the Mountain killed him. Though I suppose the scene could be when Rhaegar returns to KL before the battle but I'm not sure.

ETA: Cannot find the GRRM mention that Elia is the woman in the dream. However if I recall correctly (don't have the book in front of me) we do hear him named Aegon in Dany's vision , the name of Rhaegar's infant son, so it seems unlikely that he would name two of his sons the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you are as ignorant and blind as Robert then yes, its probable. :rolleyes:

That isn't intended to be a personal commentary BTW. But the only person who has the faintest suggestion of rape is Robert, who is a) irrational on the subject of Targaryens, b ) totally consumed with an obviously objectified love for Lyanna and c) the blindest and most ignorant idiot in the whole seven kingdoms.

Oh, and a kid who was born years after the event and just parrots the official history. Robert being the official in question.

Every single other statement or memory related to the events is inconsistent with Rhaegar raping Lyanna. Except perhaps the reaction of Brandon but a) we don't actually know what he heard or believed and b ) there are plausible explanations for his actions that don't involve rape.

If you pay any attention to what anybody other than Robert says or thinks, then even the possibility is pretty damn remote. But it is not impossible.

Actually, Bran directly says that Rhaegar "carried her(Lyanna) off and raped her" and Maester Luwin doesn't contradict him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, Bran directly says that Rhaegar "carried her(Lyanna) off and raped her" and Maester Luwin doesn't contradict him.

Yes, that's why he said, "Oh, and a kid who was born years after the event and just parrots the official history." The "kid" in question being Bran.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Brandon was the one who first received the news about Lyanna and decided to resolve the situation himself without talking to his father or brothers, which goes with his personality. I think Lyanna left a letter or a message with someone saying what she did,but Brandon didn't believe it was true or didn't care. So he goes to King's Landing and "wisely, diplomatic and not rash at all" demands to Aerys,The MAD King, that his sister is returned and to fight/killed Rhaegar. So the Mad King reacts insanely and the rest is a tragic story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Brandon was the one who first received the news about Lyanna and decided to resolve the situation himself without talking to his father or brothers, which goes with his personality. I think Lyanna left a letter or a message with someone saying what she did,but Brandon didn't believe it was true or didn't care. So he goes to King's Landing and "wisely, diplomatic and not rash at all" demands to Aerys,The MAD King, that his sister is returned and to fight/killed Rhaegar. So the Mad King reacts insanely and the rest is a tragic story.

Pretty sure it was said that Brandon and his dad went together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pretty sure it was said that Brandon and his dad went together.

No, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard the news regarding Lyanna (what that news exactly was is up for debate), then he changed course and went to King's Landing. His father came later to stand trial for his son's treason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard the news regarding Lyanna (what that news exactly was is up for debate), then he changed course and went to King's Landing. His father came later to stand trial for his son's treason.

Could I have a link of this plz or a page number maybe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could I have a link of this plz or a page number maybe?

I believe it's in Catelyn's last chapter in ACoK, where Jaime describes how Brandon and Rickard were executed. Don't have a specific page number because I lost my book.

EDIT--Here's the summary from the Tower of the Hand:

"Brandon was on his way to Riverrun to marry Catelyn whe he heard that Lyanna had been taken by Rhaegar. He came to the Red Keep with Ethan Glover, Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn shouting for Rhaegar to come out and die. Rhaegar was not there, and Aerys II had them all arrested. The fathers of all the men were commanded to come and answer for the treason of their sons, and all the fathers and sons were executed save for Ethan. Lord Rickard demanded a trial by combat, and Aerys II granted his request, declaring fire to be the champion of House Targaryen and having Rickard cooked in his armor. Brandon was made to watch and bound with a wet leather cord around his throat and his longsword just out of reach. As he watched his father roast alive, he strangled himself trying to free him."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...