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R + L = J Part XXIII


Stubby

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I love this theory, I have read and re-read the books half a dozen times and spent years trying to figure out the whole Rheagar annd Lyanna deal. Of course as soon as I saw the equation R+L=J it clicked, I am well and truly convinced. For a long times I always considered Jon to be the undisputed son of Ned, they have similar traits and yet they are also very different. I have to say that Jon's main characteristics are melancholy and anger, he is always one or the other! which sounds to me like a certain prince everyone gushes about. I'm also convinced that the coupling was concentual, everything we hear about Rhaegar's personality belies rape, especially considering the promise made between Ned and Lyanna. If it was to keep Jon's parentage secret, why would she bother if he was born of rape, surely she would hate him as much as she would Rhaegar. Not to mention the natural feeling most of us get that Jon is one of the most important characters, no way can he be Ned's bastard with a serving wench!

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I love this theory, I have read and re-read the books half a dozen times and spent years trying to figure out the whole Rheagar annd Lyanna deal. Of course as soon as I saw the equation R+L=J it clicked, I am well and truly convinced. For a long times I always considered Jon to be the undisputed son of Ned, they have similar traits and yet they are also very different. I have to say that Jon's main characteristics are melancholy and anger, he is always one or the other! which sounds to me like a certain prince everyone gushes about. I'm also convinced that the coupling was concentual, everything we hear about Rhaegar's personality belies rape, especially considering the promise made between Ned and Lyanna.

I agree about Jon's personality--and I love you for using "belie" correctly. :wub:

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I am not against the R + L = J theory, it does give me pause that if Dany is resilient against fire, and Jon is not then how good is R to J?

This has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many, many times. Short answer: not all Targs are immune to heat at all times (as Viserys and Aerio Brightflame learned), though they may be resistant to it. So Jon getting burned is not a problem for R+L=J.

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I thought I'd tweak this theory to encompass Aerys killing the elder Starks. I don't recall him having any reason to do so otherwise.

So how's this?

Would it work if crazy Aerys decided to be the guy in the prophecy instead of Rheagar and raped Lyanna at Harrenhal, prompting Rheagar to flee with her to the ToJ.

It seems like Rheagar 'realized' he had to have a third child - with Lyanna speciffically for some reason and went to Harrenhal with the intent to woo her.

Aerys sees plots within Rheagar's designs or just lets megalomania take over after he finds out about the prophecy (thanks Varys?) and decides he will go to Harrenhal too and take over.

Aerys ends up killing Brandon and Ned's Dad (Rickon?) over the repurcusions (demanding changed marraige plans or just to cover up or something) and thence starting Robert and Ned's rebellion.

therefore A+L=J

and J and D are 1/2 siblings

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I think we are cooking up and exagerating the significance of "who are Jon Snow's parents?"

I have a feeling it will not bear any impact in the future, and how could it? The "secret" died with Ned. Jon's parents, the theoretical ones by any combination, are all dead as well.

We see by the fake Arya, the potentially fake Aegon that people make up who they are all the time. I thought perhaps a character like Selmy would reveal more in his POV, but no luck.

I think we are getting excited over nothing.

How does anyone envision the discovery of "Jon Snow's parents" actually going down during the story.

I can see in an interview that GRRM might reveal the answer, but it still has no impact on the storyline and never came into account.

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I think we are cooking up and exagerating the significance of "who are Jon Snow's parents?"

I have a feeling it will not bear any impact in the future, and how could it? The "secret" died with Ned. Jon's parents, the theoretical ones by any combination, are all dead as well.

We see by the fake Arya, the potentially fake Aegon that people make up who they are all the time. I thought perhaps a character like Selmy would reveal more in his POV, but no luck.

I think we are getting excited over nothing.

How does anyone envision the discovery of "Jon Snow's parents" actually going down during the story.

I can see in an interview that GRRM might reveal the answer, but it still has no impact on the storyline and never came into account.

Even so...I think it would be interesting to learn. It's really the fact that it's in doubt that makes it so interesting.

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Why would Elia say her child was born of ice and fire?

She never says that. No one does. Rhaegar says, "his is the song of ice and fire." And he's referring to his son Aegon when he says it.

I thought I'd tweak this theory to encompass Aerys killing the elder Starks. I don't recall him having any reason to do so otherwise.

So how's this?

Would it work if crazy Aerys decided to be the guy in the prophecy instead of Rheagar and raped Lyanna at Harrenhal, prompting Rheagar to flee with her to the ToJ.

It seems like Rheagar 'realized' he had to have a third child - with Lyanna speciffically for some reason and went to Harrenhal with the intent to woo her.

Aerys sees plots within Rheagar's designs or just lets megalomania take over after he finds out about the prophecy (thanks Varys?) and decides he will go to Harrenhal too and take over.

Aerys ends up killing Brandon and Ned's Dad (Rickon?) over the repurcusions (demanding changed marraige plans or just to cover up or something) and thence starting Robert and Ned's rebellion.

therefore A+L=J

and J and D are 1/2 siblings

Jon could not have been conceived at Harrenhal, as he was born about two years afterwards.

How does anyone envision the discovery of "Jon Snow's parents" actually going down during the story.

Howland Reed and at least one person found Ned with Lyanna, so if R+L=J, then one of them might reveal the truth.

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Jon could not have been conceived at Harrenhal, as he was born about two years afterwards.

Ah thanks. Perhaps you could link me to the timeline I have heard about? I'm not up to speed with that, obviously.

Do we actually know when Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna? Any prevailing theory as to why she ended up in Dorne with half the kingsguard? Or why Aerys started killing Starks?

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Ah thanks. Perhaps you could link me to the timeline I have heard about? I'm not up to speed with that, obviously.

Here's a good timeline-focused approach to the question of Jon's parentage, and here's a good timeline of Robert's Rebellion. The essential points as related to your theory are the following:

1. Jon was born about 8-9 months before Daenerys, according to GRRM (though he was clear that this was just a rough estimate). This puts his birth at around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, and his conception at a few months into the year-long war.

2. Harrenhal took place during the Year of the False Spring, which was about a year or two before the Rebellion.

These two points taken together indicate that Jon could not have been conceived at Harrenhal, but was instead conceived sometime during the early part of the war.

Do we actually know when Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna? Any prevailing theory as to why she ended up in Dorne with half the kingsguard? Or why Aerys started killing Starks?

1. We don't really know the details surrounding Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna, as far as I can recall.

2. There are several theories related to your second question. One is that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran to the ToJ in order to hide from their respective families and wait until the tension died down (which turned out to be a terrible idea). Rhaegar may have summoned the Kingsguard there in order to guard Lyanna and his unborn child (whether the child was legitimate or illegitimate is a subject of much debate).

Another theory is that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and imprisoned her in the Tower, then summoned the Kingsguard to keep her there.

Yet another theory holds that Lyanna initially went willingly with Rhaegar to hide at the ToJ, but eventually changed her mind after finding out about Brandon and Rickard, but was not allowed to leave by Rhaegar. In other words, it's sort of a hybrid of the first two theories.

3. As to your third question, by best answer is that Aerys was simply paranoid.

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Howland Reed and at least one person found Ned with Lyanna, so if R+L=J, then one of them might reveal the truth.

I suspect that Wylla was there too, as a midwife/wet nurse, and she went back to Starfall with Ned and Howland. If Rhaegar knew Lyanna's time was near, he may have asked Arthur Dayne to find a trustworthy midwife. Dayne plucked Wylla out of Starfall where she was already serving and brought her to the Tower of Joy. When Wylla returned to Starfall, she and Ned worked out a plan where Wylla would say she was Jon's mother.

The presence of another woman at the Tower of Joy makes strategic sense, too. Say that the Lannisters or Baratheons beat Ned and his men there. In a pinch, Wylla could immediately take custody of Jon and say he was hers (and she was likely lactating, so it'd work). It's another layer of protection for the baby's identity.

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3. As to your third question, by best answer is that Aerys was simply paranoid.

Brandon went to King's Landing after Lyanna disappeared and demanded that Rhaegar "come out and die." This is interesting because it means Brandon KNEW that Rhaegar was involved; she didn't just vanish. Rhaegar wasn't there, but Aerys accused Brandon of treason and arrested him and his party. He called on their fathers to come down, and they did, including Rickard. Aerys killed them all except Rickard's squire, I think, and he died eventually at the Tower of Joy confrontation. Aerys then asked Jon Arryn to send Robert and Ned's heads, Arryn refused and that's pretty much when the war properly broke out.

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Brandon went to King's Landing after Lyanna disappeared and demanded that Rhaegar "come out and die." This is interesting because it means Brandon KNEW that Rhaegar was involved; she didn't just vanish. Rhaegar wasn't there, but Aerys accused Brandon of treason and arrested him and his party. He called on their fathers to come down, and they did, including Rickard. Aerys killed them all except Rickard's squire, I think, and he died eventually at the Tower of Joy confrontation. Aerys then asked Jon Arryn to send Robert and Ned's heads, Arryn refused and that's pretty much when the war properly broke out.

A couple things... if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, was her stay ultimately a willing one? Specificly, I could see how in a relationship if your lover/husbands father kills your brother and father quite gruesomely, that would foster some tension. Im not sure that Lyanna would look too kindly on Rhaeger for allowing the mad dog Aerys to get so out of hand. Her history indicates she was headstrong to an extreme, and unlikely to

Second, what was her value as a hostage? She was easily as valuable to the Targaryens as Jaime was to the Starks.

For example, suppose Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love at the tower of Joy at the start of the war, and both wanted to stop it. The surest way was for Rhaeger to move in and depose Aerys on the count of madness, while Lyanna could return to Winterfell and halt her side of the war. Peace could be negotiated from that point, sparing both families. But she didnt. Her staying at the tower of joy and Rhaegar staying out of the war guaranteed the slaughter of one of their families.

Maybe the reason she stayed and was guarded was because there was a significant falling out between Rhaegar and Lyanna. We assume that Rhaegar was entirely stable, but do weknow that? Could he have had a touch of madness as well?

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A couple things... if Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly, was her stay ultimately a willing one? Specificly, I could see how in a relationship if your lover/husbands father kills your brother and father quite gruesomely, that would foster some tension. Im not sure that Lyanna would look too kindly on Rhaeger for allowing the mad dog Aerys to get so out of hand. Her history indicates she was headstrong to an extreme, and unlikely to

Second, what was her value as a hostage? She was easily as valuable to the Targaryens as Jaime was to the Starks.

For example, suppose Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love at the tower of Joy at the start of the war, and both wanted to stop it. The surest way was for Rhaeger to move in and depose Aerys on the count of madness, while Lyanna could return to Winterfell and halt her side of the war. Peace could be negotiated from that point, sparing both families. But she didnt. Her staying at the tower of joy and Rhaegar staying out of the war guaranteed the slaughter of one of their families.

Maybe the reason she stayed and was guarded was because there was a significant falling out between Rhaegar and Lyanna. We assume that Rhaegar was entirely stable, but do weknow that? Could he have had a touch of madness as well?

I tend to think that Rhaegar was probably just as shocked and horrified by what happened to the Starks as anyone else. I don't think Lyanna would have blamed him for something his father did. We know that Rhaegar had big changes in mind for the crown if Robert's rebellion failed. He wasn't fighting to maintain the status quo, exactly. This is second-hand information, but Dany specifically talks about Rhaegar fighting "for the woman he loved." We assume that Rhaegar was fighting mostly to preserve his family's power, and that might be true. It probably is true. But he also could have easily been fighting to prevent Robert from killing Lyanna and their son, and even Elia and their other children.

I'm not sure why you're asking about her value as a hostage, as Rhaegar apparently never once asked for a ransom. I think it'd be mentioned.

If she was in an advanced state of pregnancy, it's possible, even highly likely, that she COULDN'T travel long distances. By the time the worst of the fighting was going on, she would have been fairly far along. We know that the birth killed her and she was only a teenager. It could have been just a difficult pregnancy from the outset, in which case the LAST thing she should have done was travel.

No one except Robert speaks about Rhaegar with any sort of ill-will, and the consensus is that he was a good man who would've been a good king, too. No mention of even a hint of madness, other than his belief in apocalyptic prophecy. The Kingsguard was there to protect the person who, by that time, was the heir to the throne. If they'd wanted Lyanna dead, she'd've been dead long before Ned got there. I see zero evidence that he kept Lyanna in the Tower of Joy against her will.

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I tend to think that Rhaegar was probably just as shocked and horrified by what happened to the Starks as anyone else. I don't think Lyanna would have blamed him for something his father did. We know that Rhaegar had big changes in mind for the crown if Robert's rebellion failed. He wasn't fighting to maintain the status quo, exactly. This is second-hand information, but Dany specifically talks about Rhaegar fighting "for the woman he loved." We assume that Rhaegar was fighting mostly to preserve his family's power, and that might be true. It probably is true. But he also could have easily been fighting to prevent Robert from killing Lyanna and their son, and even Elia and their other children.

What we know of Lyanna though is she is not exactly a shrinking violet. I don't think she would have been one to idly sit by and let things happen. And keep in mind that Rhaegar doesnt even indicate he will move against Aerys until just before the trident. Eddards life is well and truly endanger, through no fault of his own, while Rhaegar is sitting on his hands. Rhaegar is especially inactive during this period, which to me strikes me as something Lyanna would not have stood for easily. The notion here is that Lyanna just lets eddard twist in the wind until just before the trident, which just doesnt seem right.

I'm not sure why you're asking about her value as a hostage, as Rhaegar apparently never once asked for a ransom. I think it'd be mentioned.

The thought Rhaegar may have had was that she had value if it became clear he could not win in the field. She would be instrumental in negotiating a peace if he had lost on the trident but survived.

If she was in an advanced state of pregnancy, it's possible, even highly likely, that she COULDN'T travel long distances. By the time the worst of the fighting was going on, she would have been fairly far along. We know that the birth killed her and she was only a teenager. It could have been just a difficult pregnancy from the outset, in which case the LAST thing she should have done was travel.

She isn't in an advance stage of pregnancy until the end of the war according to R+L=J. She should still be easily mobile enough to do something. She does nothing over the entire period of a 9 month pregnancy. Again, from what we know of her character, that strikes me as odd.

No one except Robert speaks about Rhaegar with any sort of ill-will, and the consensus is that he was a good man who would've been a good king, too. No mention of even a hint of madness, other than his belief in apocalyptic prophecy. The Kingsguard was there to protect the person who, by that time, was the heir to the throne. If they'd wanted Lyanna dead, she'd've been dead long before Ned got there. I see zero evidence that he kept Lyanna in the Tower of Joy against her will.

We have very biased accounts on Rhaegar's character though, we dont really know what he is or isnt capable of. Furthermore I didnt say that anyone wanted Lyanna dead. I said she could have been a hostage. Suppose Robert handn't killed Rhaegar in battle, but merely captured him. Dont you think Lyanna would have made the ideal trade? Both Eddard and Robert wouldnt rationally give up Rhaegar for anyone.. but they were not rational when it came to Lyanna. It certainly could have been used to stay Robert's hand.

And furthermore, if there was a falling out between Lyanna and Rhaegar, doesnt it make sense for the kingsguard to keep Lyanna from running off with a potential heir to the throne? The other potential heirs are at the dragonstone, would you really want the rebels to get a hold of a targ baby?

Anyways, my point in all of this being is that the assumption some people are making is that it was sunshine and daisies between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but we dont know that. And if it wasnt, it could explain why the Kingsguard would have stayed with Lyanna.

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