R + L = J Part XXIII

[Breedy]

Why does everyone assume the Kingsguard was there to either keep her from running away or to prevent Ned and Robert from re-claiming her.

I will submit the following....

She was put in the Tower of Joy and had the Best of the Kingsguard to protect her from Aerys. From what I can remember we don't know when Lyanna went to ToJ with Rhaegar. Aerys seldom left King's Landing but he went to Tourney at Harrenhal, which is explained in the books. Perhaps, with that paranoia in mind, Rhaegar left the Kingsguard with orders to protect Lyanna and his child at all costs.

Another possibility about "promise Ned" is Lyanna knew about an important plot point in ADwD and somehow Ned found out about that too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You make an interesting point, but I'm not really buying it, sorry. You said yourself Lyanna was no shrinking violet. Yet you think Rhaegar could have kept her there against her will? Can't have it both ways. If she was headstrong enough to break it off with Rhaegar over Aerys (not Rhaegar, AERYS) killing her brother and father, she was headstrong enough to attempt an escape, and maybe succeed.

If it was a difficult pregnancy, she might not have been able to travel over long distances, period. Many problem pregnancies require bed rest and immobility for the vast majority of the term, never mind in a medieval-based world with little knowledge of advanced medicine. And where would she have gone? How would she have moved?

There's no credible evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were anything but consensual. The only people who keep peddling the rape/kidnapping story are Robert and people like Bran who are too young to have known exactly what happened and are parroting propaganda. Nearly everyone else with an opinion plainly states that Rhaegar was a decent man, NOT crazy and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

The Kingsguard was there, 95% likely, to protect the heir to the throne. I don't believe they were keeping her there against her will or sent to kill her (there are examples that show even the Kingsguard has its limits).

[Nine of Spades]

You make an interesting point, but I'm not really buying it, sorry. You said yourself Lyanna was no shrinking violet. Yet you think Rhaegar could have kept her there against her will? Can't have it both ways. If she was headstrong enough to break it off with Rhaegar over Aerys (not Rhaegar, AERYS) killing her brother and father, she was headstrong enough to attempt an escape, and maybe succeed.

If it was a difficult pregnancy, she might not have been able to travel over long distances, period. Many problem pregnancies require bed rest and immobility for the vast majority of the term, never mind in a medieval-based world with little knowledge of advanced medicine. And where would she have gone? How would she have moved?

There's no credible evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were anything but consensual. The only people who keep peddling the rape/kidnapping story are Robert and people like Bran who are too young to have known exactly what happened and are parroting propaganda. Nearly everyone else with an opinion plainly states that Rhaegar was a decent man, NOT crazy and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

The Kingsguard was there, 95% likely, to protect the heir to the throne. I don't believe they were keeping her there against her will or sent to kill her (there are examples that show even the Kingsguard has its limits).

There is no evidence that she was there by choice either. All we have is vague allusions to what happened. Btw, Im not saying it didnt start consensually, Im just saying that we cant assume that by the end Lyanna and Rhaegar were on the same page either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There is no evidence that she was there by choice either. All we have is vague allusions to what happened. Btw, Im not saying it didnt start consensually, Im just saying that we cant assume that by the end Lyanna and Rhaegar were on the same page either.

But by that point in time, what did it matter?

[Nine of Spades]

But by that point in time, what did it matter?

The assumption is that the Kingsguard would only be there to protect an heir or Targaryen family member, but holding value prisoner could have also been an explanation. Its possible that Rhaegar got it in his head he had to have a child with a Stark, to wed the two houses for prophetic reasons, and so even if she wasnt pregnant he felt it was vitally important that she be held there. Its possible that the falling out caused her to seek another lover, say 9 months before Ned arrived, and while Rhaegar believed the child was his, it was actually somebody elses.

Or maybe the promise that Lyanna extracted was that he have nothing to do with his fathers heritage and be raised in the north.

The point being is that lets not assume that it was nescessarily sunshine and lollipops between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Or that the 3 kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy entirely for benevolent reasons.

[Dragonfish]

The assumption is that the Kingsguard would only be there to protect an heir or Targaryen family member, but holding value prisoner could have also been an explanation.

Why exactly would 3 of the Kingsguard be required to guard one pregnant woman, even one as headstrong as Lyanna?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The assumption is that the Kingsguard would only be there to protect an heir or Targaryen family member, but holding value prisoner could have also been an explanation.

The Kingsguard are meant to protect the persons of the royal family, and really then, mainly the king and heir(s) to the throne. They're not some hit squad or a kidnapping outfit.

[Nine of Spades]

Why exactly would 3 of the Kingsguard be required to guard one pregnant woman, even one as headstrong as Lyanna?

First, if the knight of the laughing tree was her, id hardly discount her as someone who would be easy to guard.

We saw what happened when 1 kingsguard for Jaime Lannister and Arys Oakheart. A single kingsguard cannot always be trusted. 2 is better, but again, its 1 kingsguard vs. 1 kingsguard and a very dangerous woman. 3 though, you make it so any single betrayel doesnt compromise things.

Its also pretty clear that for whatever reason, Rhaegar didnt trust any guard who wasnt a kinguard with Lyanna. Why? Thats not clear, but it does mean that all the guard duties would need to be performed by those men. So, if one is sleeping, and one is watching for external threats, then you need one to watch Lyanna as well.

Now, that said, I am as much playing devil's advocate here as anything else. I will however say I dont think what happened at the tower of joy is going to be a simple story. And the notion that she sit back and let her brother and father be killed, then did nothing while her other brother was threatened seems a bit much for me. I feel there is more to it then her simply running off to get hitched. It seems too neat and simple for Martin.

[Nine of Spades]

The Kingsguard are meant to protect the persons of the royal family, and really then, mainly the king and heir(s) to the throne. They're not some hit squad or a kidnapping outfit.

And precisely which member of the royal family were they protecting when they were sent to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood?

It seems to me that the kingsguard is more then just a group of bodyguards, but are also detached to perform important missions that as the royal family sees fit.

And who precisely was Loras protecting on Dragonstone?

[LordBryndenRivers]

And precisely which member of the royal family were they protecting when they were sent to deal with the Kingswood Brotherhood?

It seems to me that the kingsguard is more then just a group of bodyguards, but are also detached to perform important missions that as the royal family sees fit.

And who precisely was Loras protecting on Dragonstone?

The Kingsguard does exactly what the king tells them to do. If the king tells them to guard a brother, son, daughter, whatever, they do that. Ideally, a Kingsguard would do absolutely anything commanded; although, the question is where that limit crosses the bounds of chivalry. But in theory, whatever the king commands.

[corbon]

The assumption is that the Kingsguard would only be there to protect an heir or Targaryen family member, but holding value prisoner could have also been an explanation.

No, it couldn't.

It is clear that the 3KG knew what had happened already in the war. They knew Aerys was dead, they knew Rhaegar was dead. They knew Viserys was at Dragonstone unguarded by the KG. It defies belief that they would consider 1 useless hostage (hostage for what? Rhaegar is dead, as is Aerys, and the war lost) to need 100% of the remaining KG to guard her while they left the true king unprotected.

It isn't so much that they are at ToJ, its that they are willing to leave Viserys, who would otherwise be the rightful king, completely unprotected.

No order given by the dead Rhaegar would compromise that primary purpose. Yes, the KG can do other tasks, but their primary task is to protect the king, and one of them at least should be with him.

That fact that they were willing to leave Viserys completely unguarded strongly indicates that they didn't consider him King. Which leaves only one possibility. The true King is Rhaegar's heir, Lyanna's child (and indicates a probable marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, even though we have no other clue about such a marriage).

[DurararaFTW]

You make an interesting point, but I'm not really buying it, sorry. You said yourself Lyanna was no shrinking violet. Yet you think Rhaegar could have kept her there against her will? Can't have it both ways. If she was headstrong enough to break it off with Rhaegar over Aerys (not Rhaegar, AERYS) killing her brother and father, she was headstrong enough to attempt an escape, and maybe succeed.

If it was a difficult pregnancy, she might not have been able to travel over long distances, period. Many problem pregnancies require bed rest and immobility for the vast majority of the term, never mind in a medieval-based world with little knowledge of advanced medicine. And where would she have gone? How would she have moved?

There's no credible evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were anything but consensual. The only people who keep peddling the rape/kidnapping story are Robert and people like Bran who are too young to have known exactly what happened and are parroting propaganda. Nearly everyone else with an opinion plainly states that Rhaegar was a decent man, NOT crazy and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

The Kingsguard was there, 95% likely, to protect the heir to the throne. I don't believe they were keeping her there against her will or sent to kill her (there are examples that show even the Kingsguard has its limits).

HEADSTRONG?! Trying to go to King's Landing when you brother is facing execution is headstrong? Trying to escape after father and brother were burned alive is headstrong. Or tell your other brother and your bethrothed what happened when they start a war to save you?

I'm sorry that does not sound headstrong to me. More like just something an even remotely decent human being would do. But she didn't. And if Lyanna died delivering a baby when Ned rescued, then keep in mind that the war lasted over a year. Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy at the very end. So pregnancy doesn't explain her not doing anything. Her being kept against her will, or alteratively Rhaegar keeping the truth of what is going on in the Seven Kingdoms from her, does.

[Dragonfish]

Or tell your other brother and your bethrothed what happened when they start a war to save you?

There are only two ways Lyanna could have contacted her brother or Robert: send a letter, which probably would have been considered fake (much like Sansa's was in AGoT); or travel across a war zone to get to them, which carries its own risks (remember what happened to Arya in ACoK and ASoS?).

Honestly, it's amazing to me how people can forget that communication is not easy in this world. There are no telephones, no email, no fast, simple ways to contact someone (other than letters, which can only be sent to castles anyway). I think it' absolutely clear that once the war began, there was very little that Lyanna could have done to stop it peacefully--especially considering what Aerys had done.

So pregnancy doesn't explain her not doing anything. Her being kept against her will, or alteratively Rhaegar keeping the truth of what is going on in the Seven Kingdoms from her, does.

Of those two scenarios, I think it's more likely that Rhaegar didn't tell Lyanna what was happening in the outside world. When Ned finds Lyanna, she's still clutching the winter roses that Rhaegar gave her, which seems to hint that she was still attached to him. This would be odd if Rhaegar had imprisoned her, which is why I think it's more likely he simply hid things from her. Now, there are a couple reasons why Rhaegar would not have told Lyanna the truth: 1) He himself did not know the truth until he made it back to King's Landing, at which point he may have decided it was more important to put the Rebellion down first; 2) He made a judgment call that she was better off not knowing the truth. Perhaps he believed it was for her benefit, or perhaps he did not want her to cause him trouble. Whichever of these scenarios you prefer, I think they're all more likely than the "Lyanna was a prisoner theory", due to the blue rose imagery when Ned found her.

[DurararaFTW]

@Dragonfish

You say communication is that world is difficult, how long did you think it took for Lord Rickard's summons to King's Landing to arrive at Winterfell, him assembling all the fathers of Brandons companions and then to travel to King's Landing, and subsequently for messages to reach the Vale and then for Robert to travel to the Stormlands? At the bare minimum in range of three months, I'd say. There is no way that Lyanna could not have started for King's landing after it was known things were going to **** but before the war. And my copy of A Dance With Dragons doesn't have the map with the Tower of Joy on it but you cannot tell me it's easier to send messages to effin' Winterfell and it's various bannermen.

More likely Lyanna WAS a prisoner, even if she wasn't made aware of it herself.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

HEADSTRONG?! Trying to go to King's Landing when you brother is facing execution is headstrong? Trying to escape after father and brother were burned alive is headstrong. Or tell your other brother and your bethrothed what happened when they start a war to save you?

I'm sorry that does not sound headstrong to me. More like just something an even remotely decent human being would do. But she didn't. And if Lyanna died delivering a baby when Ned rescued, then keep in mind that the war lasted over a year. Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy at the very end. So pregnancy doesn't explain her not doing anything. Her being kept against her will, or alteratively Rhaegar keeping the truth of what is going on in the Seven Kingdoms from her, does.

And what would that have accomplished, exactly? Especially seeing as, as I've said over and over and over, AERYS was responsible for killing her father and brother, not Rhaegar. For all we know, Rhaegar promised to set matters straight and begged her not to get involved for her own safety.

I'm seriously baffled that so many people continue to believe that Rhaegar would or could hold Lyanna against her will or that he'd need three Kingsguard members to do it. As someone else mentioned, by the time Ned arrived at the Tower, the war was pretty much over. Anyone who would have given the Kingsguard their original orders was dead (Rhaegar and Aerys). Their deaths should have nullified whatever orders they gave about watching prisoners (which I don't buy for a second, but hypothetically), and they should have immediately gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys — if he was the lawful heir. The fact that they're still at the Tower even though the war was over and their original commander was dead should be a glaring, blinding hint that the lawful heir was in the Tower of Joy. When Rhaegar and Aerys died, Lyanna ceased to have value as a prisoner. The obvious solution is that they never saw or treated her as one. Keep in mind too that Jaime had turned traitor, Barristan was wounded and Darry and Martell were killed at the Trident. Whent, Dayne and Hightower were the last three loyal Kingsguard members left alive and in good health and you think they'd prioritize guarding a, by this time, useless hostage over Viserys? It's not even that three Kingsguard members were at the Tower — the ONLY three Kingsguard members were at the Tower. Including the Lord Commander.

I'm also willing to believe that Rhaegar withheld information from her, either for her own protection or because he himself didn't know or had no way to tell her. But that absolutely does not equate to her being a prisoner.

We may not know exactly what Lyanna was thinking — maybe she bought into Rhaegar' three-headed dragon prophecy and thought that was more important — but I refuse to believe, and see no evidence that, she was at the Tower of Joy against her will.

[Dragonfish]

@Dragonfish

You say communication is that world is difficult, how long did you think it took for Lord Rickard's summons to King's Landing to arrive at Winterfell, him assembling all the fathers of Brandons companions and then to travel to King's Landing, and subsequently for messages to reach the Vale and then for Robert to travel to the Stormlands? At the bare minimum in range of three months, I'd say. There is no way that Lyanna could not have started for King's landing after it was known things were going to **** but before the war. And my copy of A Dance With Dragons doesn't have the map with the Tower of Joy on it but you cannot tell me it's easier to send messages to effin' Winterfell and it's various bannermen.

First of all, we don't know when Rhaegar and Lyanna actually found out what was happening. Given that no one in the King's Landing seemed to know where Rhaegar was (not even Varys, apparently), it's entirely possible that they didn't find out about everything until after the lords had already been executed.

Second of all, why would Lyanna go to King's Landing, where the crazy murderous king who just executed her father and brother is? And why are we talking about her going to King's Landing when the entire conversation has been about her contacting her brother and Robert? As I said, a letter wouldn't have done much good, as they likely would have thought it was fake or coerced. And she can't really travel to her brother or Robert because there's, you know, a freaking war zone she'd have to travel through. So you tell me: how is Lyanna supposed to contact her brother or Robert?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

First of all, we don't know when Rhaegar and Lyanna actually found out what was happening. Given that no one in the King's Landing seemed to know where Rhaegar was (not even Varys, apparently), it's entirely possible that they didn't find out about everything until after the lords had already been executed.

Second of all, why would Lyanna go to King's Landing, where the crazy murderous king who just executed her father and brother is? And why are we talking about her going to King's Landing when the entire conversation has been about her contacting her brother and Robert? As I said, a letter wouldn't have done much good, as they likely would have thought it was fake or coerced. And she can't really travel to her brother or Robert because there's, you know, a freaking war zone she'd have to travel through. So you tell me: how is Lyanna supposed to contact her brother or Robert?

Not to mention that people continually underestimate the trouble that a pregnant woman would have traveling in that era (or its fantasy equivalent), no matter how far along she was. Yeah, the war lasted about a year, but she still would have been pregnant for a lot of it. She probably wouldn't have been able to ride, especially if, as I suspect, it was a difficult pregnancy. How far would she have gotten in a wheelhouse? She may also have put the safety of her baby ahead of Ned and Robert's, especially if she knew deep down that there was nothing she could no. Striking out in a warzone when you're pregnant with a royal heir is probably one of the dumber things you can do.

[LadyMary]

I'm inclined to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together consensually and that Rhaegar was keeping her in Dorne so that they could be together without the Spider or his father knowing where they were.

However, after the war started, Rhaegar returned to KL from the South and I assume it was disclosed that he had Lyanna Stark in a safe place...at which point Aerys decided she would be a valuable hostage since it was her fiancee and her brother that were leading the rebel army. It fits his MO, as he kept Jaime close to him as his only guard and maybe as a hostage (presumably so that Tywin wouldn't make trouble) just as he kept Elia and her children as hostages (so Dorne wouldn't make trouble).

Rhaegar wanted to depose his father after going to war and I can easily believe that Rhaegar wanted to do it not just because his father was a raving psycho, but because Aerys was a threat to Lyanna. The best of the KG were dispatched to guard her, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Rhaegar suggested the men who should be sent to "guard the hostage" were all the KG who were closest to Rhaegar personally. So yes I believe that Rhaegar was not keeping the woman he loved hostage, but I can believe his father Aerys would keep her as a hostage.

The question I have is, after Aerys, Rhaegar and Rhaegar's trueborn children were dead, why didn't the KG - or at least one of them, go to Dragonstone to protect the next King (Viserys)? Maybe because they were not just the King's men, but Prince Rhaegar's men and they were protecting Lyanna and her baby from suffering the same fate as Elia and her children.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The question I have is, after Aerys, Rhaegar and Rhaegar's trueborn children were dead, why didn't the KG - or at least one of them, go to Dragonstone to protect the next King (Viserys)? Maybe because they were not just the King's men, but Prince Rhaegar's men and they were protecting Lyanna and her baby from suffering the same fate as Elia and her children.

Because Viserys wouldn't have been the next king if Rhaegar and Lyanna were polygamously married. Their child would have been, because he would have been legitimate. The three Kingsguard at the Tower were protecting the heir to the throne. By definition, they defend the royal family. If Viserys had been the lawful heir, whatever orders Rhaegar gave them would have been nullified with his death. It's not about them being loyal to Rhaegar, although they obviously were. Ned specifically asks them why they're not with Viserys, and they all but come right out and say that he's not their main priority right now.

[Dragonfish]

I'm inclined to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together consensually and that Rhaegar was keeping her in Dorne so that they could be together without the Spider or his father knowing where they were.

However, after the war started, Rhaegar returned to KL from the South and I assume it was disclosed that he had Lyanna Stark in a safe place...at which point Aerys decided she would be a valuable hostage since it was her fiancee and her brother that were leading the rebel army. It fits his MO, as he kept Jaime close to him as his only guard and maybe as a hostage (presumably so that Tywin wouldn't make trouble) just as he kept Elia and her children as hostages (so Dorne wouldn't make trouble).

Rhaegar wanted to depose his father after going to war and I can easily believe that Rhaegar wanted to do it not just because his father was a raving psycho, but because Aerys was a threat to Lyanna. The best of the KG were dispatched to guard her, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Rhaegar suggested the men who should be sent to "guard the hostage" were all the KG who were closest to Rhaegar personally. So yes I believe that Rhaegar was not keeping the woman he loved hostage, but I can believe his father Aerys would keep her as a hostage.

Now this is an alternative I hadn't considered before. I like it.

However, what I don't quite understand is why Aerys would agree to send Rhaegar's most trusted members of the Kingsguard. Surely if he was as paranoid as we know him to be, he would not have sent people who might end up following Rhaegar's orders instead of his own. It's not an insurmountable issue, but it is one that keeps me from fully endorsing this theory.