R + L = J Part XXIII

[Nine of Spades]

Because Viserys wouldn't have been the next king if Rhaegar and Lyanna were polygamously married. Their child would have been, because he would have been legitimate. The three Kingsguard at the Tower were protecting the heir to the throne. By definition, they defend the royal family. If Viserys had been the lawful heir, whatever orders Rhaegar gave them would have been nullified with his death. It's not about them being loyal to Rhaegar, although they obviously were. Ned specifically asks them why they're not with Viserys, and they all but come right out and say that he's not their main priority right now.

If the heir to the throne is in Dorne, why are they guarding him from his uncle, one of the few people with enough swords at his back to put him on the throne? It seems to me Dorne+Riverlands+North+Targaryen loyalists would have been the faction most likely to actually put the Targaryen dynasty back on the throne... and they go and try and kill Ned to keep her from seeing her.

Ned's rebellion was vs. Aerys, not Lyanna's son. So the legitimate heir at the Tower of Joy doesn't make sense to me. If the Kingsguard is trying to secure his succession, they should be heavily focussed on recruiting Ned to their side. Especially since Robert and Ned had had a falling out at that point. An illegitimate child makes more sense, a bastard is still a threat to the claims of Viserys and Dany. And if Lyanna is no longer trusted, I could see why they wouldnt want her bastard running loose out there.

[Dragonfish]

If the heir to the throne is in Dorne, why are they guarding him from his uncle, one of the few people with enough swords at his back to put him on the throne? It seems to me Dorne+Riverlands+North+Targaryen loyalists would have been the faction most likely to actually put the Targaryen dynasty back on the throne... and they go and try and kill Ned to keep her from seeing her.

Ned's rebellion was vs. Aerys, not Lyanna's son. So the legitimate heir at the Tower of Joy doesn't make sense to me. If the Kingsguard is trying to secure his succession, they should be heavily focussed on recruiting Ned to their side. Especially since Robert and Ned had had a falling out at that point. An illegitimate child makes more sense, a bastard is still a threat to the claims of Viserys and Dany. And if Lyanna is no longer trusted, I could see why they wouldnt want her bastard running loose out there.

Uhh...I'm not sure where to begin, but here goes.

First, Robert had most certainly declared his intent to be king by then. Ned was one of his top commanders, and it's doubtful that he would have turned on Robert in order to put his newborn nephew on the throne.

Second, Ned is associated with people who killed the last Targaryens (including the children). And by that point, Robert was pretty much intent on getting rid of all the rest of the Targs. So tell me, why would the Kingsguard expect someone associated with these people to simply turn around at the very end and wage even more war, just to put a newborn baby on the throne? Honestly, this is one of the more laughable objections to the "Lyanna and Rhaegar were married" theory I've heard.

[LadyMary]

Now this is an alternative I hadn't considered before. I like it.

However, what I don't quite understand is why Aerys would agree to send Rhaegar's most trusted members of the Kingsguard. Surely if he was as paranoid as we know him to be, he would not have sent people who might end up following Rhaegar's orders instead of his own. It's not an insurmountable issue, but it is one that keeps me from fully endorsing this theory.

Yeah, it's a mystery why Aerys would allow 6 of his 7 Kingsguard to leave the Red Keep during a rebellion given how paranoid he was, but he did.

My guess is that somebody - Rhaegar, Varys or a combination of advisors - convinced Aerys that the rebellion would be put down quickly with enough force so he agreed to put his men in the field either guarding/fighting with Rhaegar at the Trident, or guarding a most valuable hostage in Dorne. Also, Aerys had a backup plan to incinerate the city and maybe he felt more secure with the the pyromancers than his own Kingsguard.

It was only after Rhaegar was killed by Robert and Eddard Stark was advancing on the Kings Landing that Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone and mobilized Rossert (before Rossert was named Hand, his previous Hand was murdered for protesting the plot and I can believe there was general consensus that Aerys needed to be set aside in favor of Rhaegar after the rebellion was put down, because he was homicidally insane).

Nine of Spades:

If the heir to the throne is in Dorne, why are they guarding him from his uncle, one of the few people with enough swords at his back to put him on the throne? It seems to me Dorne+Riverlands+North+Targaryen loyalists would have been the faction most likely to actually put the Targaryen dynasty back on the throne... and they go and try and kill Ned to keep her from seeing her.

I think Dragonfish gave a good answer to this but I want to add that (i) they were following orders and (ii) they couldn't afford to leave anything to chance. Even if Lyanna was Ned's sister, he was was the "enemy" in a war and Robert's allies had murdered Rhaegar's wife and children to put Robert on the throne. If they were commanded to protect Rhaegar's mistress/wife and his child (true-born or not), they would see Robert's friend/foster brother and general as a potential threat. Robert would have posed a threat to Rhaegar's last remaining son, even if Eddard was his uncle.

[DurararaFTW]

And what would that have accomplished, exactly? Especially seeing as, as I've said over and over and over, AERYS was responsible for killing her father and brother, not Rhaegar. For all we know, Rhaegar promised to set matters straight and begged her not to get involved for her own safety.

If Lyanna was at the trail to ensure that Rhaegar was not guilty of the crimes that Brandon accused him off, thousands of lives may have been spared. Brandon would probably still be effed for threatening the prince but..

Their deaths should have nullified whatever orders they gave about watching prisoners (which I don't buy for a second, but hypothetically), and they should have immediately gone to Dragonstone to protect Viserys — if he was the lawful heir. The fact that they're still at the Tower even though the war was over and their original commander was dead should be a glaring, blinding hint that the lawful heir was in the Tower of Joy.

HOW? Rhaegar had a boy and a daughter. Even if Rhaegar divorced and remarried with Elia's knowing, which I find quite a stretch, the lawful heir would still not be what they were guarding. With Aerys, Aegon, Rhaegar and Viserys claims to the throne all stronger or more believably, whether they were guarding the woman or the child, it wasn't because he was a high political priority. Not by a loooong shot.

Also, you people don't buy. Nobody in the story seems to have problem with it. And whether they agree with Robert or not, they still seem to think Elia was Rhaegar's wife and her children his rightful heirs and that there were no offspring from Lyanna and Rhaegars union.

First of all, we don't know when Rhaegar and Lyanna actually found out what was happening. Given that no one in the King's Landing seemed to know where Rhaegar was (not even Varys, apparently), it's entirely possible that they didn't find out about everything until after the lords had already been executed.

Seriously, Varys said that? Can I get a quote for that.

Second of all, why would Lyanna go to King's Landing, where the crazy murderous king who just executed her father and brother is?

I was talking about before the trail, the gap in time between Brandon was arrest and Rickards arrival in Kings Landing.

And why are we talking about her going to King's Landing when the entire conversation has been about her contacting her brother and Robert? As I said, a letter wouldn't have done much good, as they likely would have thought it was fake or coerced. And she can't really travel to her brother or Robert because there's, you know, a freaking war zone she'd have to travel through. So you tell me: how is Lyanna supposed to contact her brother or Robert?

This is ROBERT we are talking about. If Rhaegar tells him to meet on mutual territory, nothing is gonna stop him. All that has to be done was give him a time and a place.

But anyway. When Rhaegar and Lyanna first took off, no attempt to explain was made. When Brandon was arrested, no attempt to explain was made, at Brandon's trail, nobody arrived to clear things up, AFTER Brandon and Rickard were executed, no attempt to explain was made. Throughout the war and Aerys, Rhaegar and his children were dead, no attempt to explain was made. When Ned at last arrived at the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard weren't like "Oh by the way, Lyanna wasn't being raped non-stop ever since she disappeared as you have been believing this entire time.", no despite Ned making it clear he still respects these guys they just straight up decided to attack him.

Brandon, Rickard, Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, Elia, the entire Kingsguard save one ALL died pointlessly without even slightest attempt to explain that this is an misunderstanding was made on part of those who were in the know. The BAD side of story had no trouble at all reaching the ears of those even in the remotest parts of the country at the time

And yes, at a certain point in the story a wartorn part of the country being in the way may have been the possible reason.

But since loooong before and loong after that, no attempt to explain was made either, I think that wasn't the reason for Lyanna not communicating.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Lyanna was at the trail to ensure that Rhaegar was not guilty of the crimes that Brandon accused him off, thousands of lives may have been spared. Brandon would probably still be effed for threatening the prince but..

I ... what are you even talking about?

HOW? Rhaegar had a boy and a daughter. Even if Rhaegar divorced and remarried with Elia's knowing, which I find quite a stretch, the lawful heir would still not be what they were guarding. With Aerys, Aegon, Rhaegar and Viserys claims to the throne all stronger or more believably, whether they were guarding the woman or the child, it wasn't because he was a high political priority. Not by a loooong shot.

At the time that Ned went to the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar's children WERE ALREADY PRESUMED DEAD. Aerys was dead, Rhaegar was dead and Aegon was (supposedly) dead. If Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, their child would be legitimate and would take precedence over Viserys. Hence why the Kingsguard members were at the Tower of Joy and not Dragonstone. I don't know how to make it any plainer. I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend about this.

Also, you people don't buy. Nobody in the story seems to have problem with it. And whether they agree with Robert or not, they still seem to think Elia was Rhaegar's wife and her children his rightful heirs and that there were no offspring from Lyanna and Rhaegars union.

The only person who says anything about Rhaegar holding or carting off Lyanna against her will is Robert. Bran parrots what he's heard, political propaganda. And of course they don't know or think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had children — that's the entire point, that Ned hid Jon's true identity from the world for his own safety. Again, I don't know how many times I have to explain this or how to make it any clearer.

I know you're deadset, for whatever reason, on Rhaegar being some terrible rapist-kidnapper. Why, I have no clue.

(And it's trial, not trail.)

[Dragonfish]

Seriously, Varys said that? Can I get a quote for that.

I believe it's in one of Jaime's flashbacks from ASoS. I don't have my copy of this book, otherwise I'd try to find the quote for you.

I was talking about before the trail, the gap in time between Brandon was arrest and Rickards arrival in Kings Landing.

Right, and I explained that by pointing out that no one knew where Rhaegar was, so it would have been difficult for anyone to summon him to King's Landing.

I mean, given that Rhaegar seemed to be bothered by his father's craziness (from Jaime's POV in AFFC, where Rhaegar says that he means to call a council and make some changes), is your position really that Rhaegar heard what was happening to Brandon and Rickard, then decided against going back to King's Landing to stop it? What evidence do you have that Rhaegar would have allowed this sort of thing?

This is ROBERT we are talking about. If Rhaegar tells him to meet on mutual territory, nothing is gonna stop him. All that has to be done was give him a time and a place.

Robert was in the field for most of the war, until the Battle of the Bells (after which Rhaegar returned from the South, according to Jaime). It would have been impossible to send a raven to him during that time. After the Battle of the Bells, Robert had his commanders (Ned, Jon, and Hoster) to keep him from doing something stupid, like wagering the entire outcome of the war on single combat.

But anyway. When Rhaegar and Lyanna first took off, no attempt to explain was made.

We don't know this. You're making assumptions, here.

But even if it's true that no attempt to explain was made, that's not unusual under "Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar" theory. They were both likely running away from their respective families, and so they didn't think much about "explaining" things at the time.

When Brandon was arrested, no attempt to explain was made, at Brandon's trail, nobody arrived to clear things up,

Which, as I say above, can be explained by Rhaegar and Lyanna being out of touch.

AFTER Brandon and Rickard were executed, no attempt to explain was made. Throughout the war and Aerys, Rhaegar and his children were dead, no attempt to explain was made.

Brandon and Rickard's execution (as well as the execution of the other lords and their sons) was the point of no return (well, that and Aerys' demands for Ned and Robert's heads). There was no way that any of the rebel lords were going to yield to a king who had executed lords who had committed no crime. No matter how much "explaining" Rhaegar or Lyanna could have done, at that point the war was mostly about deposing Aerys, and not so much about Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Simply put, once the war began, it was not going to end until one side was defeated. No amount of "explanation" was going to change that.

When Ned at last arrived at the Tower of Joy, the Kingsguard weren't like "Oh by the way, Lyanna wasn't being raped non-stop ever since she disappeared as you have been believing this entire time.", no despite Ned making it clear he still respects these guys they just straight up decided to attack him.

We don't know that the Kingsguard at the ToJ didn't say any of those things (another assumption on your part). Besides, what would have been the point? The king is dead, the crown prince is dead, his wife and children are dead. What would be served by telling Ned that Rhaegar really was just a swell guy?

Brandon, Rickard, Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, Elia, the entire Kingsguard save one ALL died pointlessly without even slightest attempt to explain that this is an misunderstanding was made on part of those who were in the know. The BAD side of story had no trouble at all reaching the ears of those even in the remotest parts of the country at the time

Yes, and when Catelyn freed Jaime, there were all sorts of rumors about her having been seduced by him. I guess we must believe them, because that's what the BAD rumors say. And as we know from reading this book, rumors are always correct.

You know, we can argue all we want about the fine points of either theory, but one thing has always remained clear to me: if Lyanna ran off willingly with Rhaegar, it makes for a better story. It makes Lyanna complicit in her own downfall (which I think is better than her simply being a victim). And it adds a dash of ambiguity to the whole thing. If Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, then the war essentially boils down to valiant rebels versus evil royal family. But if Rhaegar really was an alright guy who simply ran off with the woman he loved, then that makes the war's result (death of the entire royal family) a little more tragic. I think that's far closer to Martin's style "Rhaegar raped Lyanna" theory is.

[DurararaFTW]

I ... what are you even talking about?

Brandon didn't get executed the day after he was arrested. His father was summoned from King's landing for his trial, along with the fathers of each of his companions. Unless Rhaegar really did, for whatever reason completely discommunicate himself from the outside world, he and Lyanna could've easily arrived at King's Landing long before Ricard who was like five times further away, to say nothing of the other fathers. And you know, the trial was crazy but Brandon was actually legitimately out of line, screaming to the Red Keep for Rheagar to come out and die. Him being arrested and held until they had a trail is hardly basis for anyone to go "Well Aerys has completely lost it now, might as well not even bother trying to stop this madness now."

At the time that Ned went to the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar's children WERE ALREADY PRESUMED DEAD. Aerys was dead, Rhaegar was dead and Aegon was (supposedly) dead. If Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, their child would be legitimate and would take precedence over Viserys. Hence why the Kingsguard members were at the Tower of Joy and not Dragonstone. I don't know how to make it any plainer. I don't see what's so difficult to comprehend about this.

Yeah I actually read the effing book, but thank you for the reminder. Legitimate claim? Based on what? Not Rhaegar's word. Not his wife's. Not Aerys. Certainly not the House Stark, who they were gonna cut down.

What exactly did this child have left going for it other then possible white hair. And IF, IF they had some method of proving that Rhaegar had divorced and remarried with Lyanna. WHY IN GOD'S **** WERE THEY TRYING TO KILL NED! One of the few guys who would actually listen to this thing.

The only person who says anything about Rhaegar holding or carting off Lyanna against her will is Robert. Bran parrots what he's heard, political propaganda. And of course they don't know or think that Rhaegar and Lyanna had children — that's the entire point, that Ned hid Jon's true identity from the world for his own safety. Again, I don't know how many times I have to explain this or how to make it any clearer.

CAN YOU READ?

Also, you people don't buy. Nobody in the story seems to have problem with it. And whether they agree with Robert or not, they still seem to think Elia was Rhaegar's wife and her children his rightful heirs and that there were no offspring from Lyanna and Rhaegars union.

This is IN THE QUOTE YOU ARE REPLING TOO, SERIOUSLY!

What i was referring too when I said that you guys have this HUGE problem with the concept that nobody in the story shares, is the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna.

Nobody in the story are like "What in ****? Why were guarding Lyanna instead of hauling ass the Dragonstone???? This story that Ned is feeding us is completely inconvincible for that reason alone. Whatever could explain the Kingsguard still guarding Lyanna after her lover's death who was a crownprince?! Hmmmm..."

No, them just remaining there because Rhaegar/Aerys told them too, is good enough for Robert, Barristan, Tywin, Doran, Varys, Pycelle and everyone who'd most certainly care if Rhaegar had legitimate offspring running around in Westeros, we are given no reason to question the circumstances just for that.

I know you're deadset, for whatever reason, on Rhaegar being some terrible rapist-kidnapper. Why, I have no clue.

Neither do I. I'm pretty sure I can believe it if Lyanna was in love with Rheagar, but if you KNOW I'm deadset on it then okay.

I don't have a problem with Rheagar and Lyanna being in love. I have a problem with the idea that Rheagar is some idiot who never thought riding past his pregnant wife to name the bethothed of another his Queen of Love and Beauty would destroy inter-House relations, who didn't think disappearing a noblewoman was such a big deal so it's probably okay to go on a honeymoon for a few months and don't leave a address for emergencies. I'd prefer to think Rheagar knew what he was doing. Maybe even wanted civil war. Like Dumbledore. You're lead to believe he is a good guy for six books, then in seventh

Snape: Please, save the Potters.

Dumbledore: Not unless you make it worth my while, I won't. >_>

(And it's trial, not trail.)

Well thank you very much, I'll keep a closer eye on my spelling from now on.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good God, calm down. You're barely comprehensible.

You obviously have your mind made up about what you think happened, even if I don't think it makes a lick of sense. So at the risk of you giving yourself an aneurism, I'll leave you to it.

[Dragonfish]

Brandon didn't get executed the day after he was arrested. His father was summoned from King's landing for his trial, along with the fathers of each of his companions. Unless Rhaegar really did, for whatever reason completely discommunicate himself from the outside world, he and Lyanna could've easily arrived at King's Landing long before Ricard who was like five times further away, to say nothing of the other fathers. And you know, the trial was crazy but Brandon was actually legitimately out of line, screaming to the Red Keep for Rheagar to come out and die. Him being arrested and held until they had a trail is hardly basis for anyone to go "Well Aerys has completely lost it now, might as well not even bother trying to stop this madness now."

All of this I have already explained.

Legitimate claim? Based on what?

Based on Rhaegar and Lyanna being married. Or so the theory goes.

What i was referring too when I said that you guys have this HUGE problem with the concept that nobody in the story shares, is the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna.

We don't know what the rest of the world thinks happened at the ToJ. For all we know, Ned told them that they were unaware what happened at King's Landing (which we know is false), or that he fell on them as they were trying to make their escape. Point being, you can't argue that the rest of the world accepts this tale because we don't know if the rest of the world even knows the true tale.

[DurararaFTW]

Based on Rhaegar and Lyanna being married. Or so the theory goes.

I got that, but I don't think Arthur, Lyanna and the others saying they were married is gonna be enough for, well anyone. Save maybe Ned. But again, they sure didn't try very hard to get him on their side. With Rheagar and Elia not around to say anything about anything, Jon's hypothetical claim would have been kinda dead in the water. After Ned is dead at their hands, with Jon Arryn and Robert on the throne, they would be able to accomplish even less.

We don't know what the rest of the world thinks happened at the ToJ. For all we know, Ned told them that they were unaware what happened at King's Landing (which we know is false), or that he fell on them as they were trying to make their escape. Point being, you can't argue that the rest of the world accepts this tale because we don't know if the rest of the world even knows the true tale.

Fair enough, but even if they though the three weren't aware of what had happened/were leaving to go wherever, they still believe three Kingsguards were initially guarding Lyanna and just Lyanna, because Rheagar told them too. That IS good enough for the Kingsguard.

[Dragonfish]

I got that, but I don't think Arthur, Lyanna and the others saying they were married is gonna be enough for, well anyone. Save maybe Ned. But again, they sure didn't try very hard to get him on their side. With Rheagar and Elia not around to say anything about anything, Jon's hypothetical claim would have been kinda dead in the water. After Ned is dead at their hands, with Jon Arryn and Robert on the throne, they would be able to accomplish even less.

Right, but we're not talking about what would come afterward, had the Kingsguard escaped with the "true heir". We're not talking about how they might have gone about placing the child on the throne. What we're trying to do is explain why the Kingsguard were there instead of with Viserys.

Fair enough, but even if they though the three weren't aware of what had happened/were leaving to go wherever, they still believe three Kingsguards were initially guarding Lyanna and just Lyanna, because Rheagar told them too. That IS good enough for the Kingsguard.

That would have been a good enough explanation for why the Kingsguard were there while Aerys was alive. It's more difficult to explain why they were still there when the apparent new king, Viserys, was on Dragonstone, and all the other Kingsugard were dead or had gone over to Robert's side.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What we're trying to do is explain why the Kingsguard were there instead of with Viserys.

That would have been a good enough explanation for why the Kingsguard were there while Aerys was alive. It's more difficult to explain why they were still there when the apparent new king, Viserys, was on Dragonstone, and all the other Kingsugard were dead or had gone over to Robert's side.

THANK YOU. This is what I keep trying and trying and trying to explain.

[Nine of Spades]

Uhh...I'm not sure where to begin, but here goes.

First, Robert had most certainly declared his intent to be king by then. Ned was one of his top commanders, and it's doubtful that he would have turned on Robert in order to put his newborn nephew on the throne.

Ned and Robert had a falling out, so its not that crazy. And again, you gain nothing by killing ned at that point, even if the chances he would help arent great. The only reason to protect a legitimate heir to the throne by Lyanna is if you see Ned as a threat.

Second, Ned is associated with people who killed the last Targaryens (including the children). And by that point, Robert was pretty much intent on getting rid of all the rest of the Targs. So tell me, why would the Kingsguard expect someone associated with these people to simply turn around at the very end and wage even more war, just to put a newborn baby on the throne? Honestly, this is one of the more laughable objections to the "Lyanna and Rhaegar were married" theory I've heard.

Because those kids weren't his kin. Ill also point out that it was Tywin who took Kings landing and killed those kids, someone who was not a part of the Rebellion until they sacked king's landing. I think Lyanna could have told them that at worst Ned was a mild hindrance, who could potentially protect the child if alive.

I think Dragonfish gave a good answer to this but I want to add that (i) they were following orders and (ii) they couldn't afford to leave anything to chance. Even if Lyanna was Ned's sister, he was was the "enemy" in a war and Robert's allies had murdered Rhaegar's wife and children to put Robert on the throne. If they were commanded to protect Rhaegar's mistress/wife and his child (true-born or not), they would see Robert's friend/foster brother and general as a potential threat. Robert would have posed a threat to Rhaegar's last remaining son, even if Eddard was his uncle.

The person who gave the orders is dead. Lyanna is in this theory the queen, do you think she gave any orders that Ned should be killed if he showed up? Do you think the Kingsguard went to her and asked "hey what should we do, ned is at the front gate" and her answer was "kill them!"? And if she had survived the birth do you think the Kingsguard would expect her to look kindly on killing her brother?

Now, it makes sense to keep ned away from a bastard child, but none from the legitimate heir, if you are assuming that the Kingsguard is operating in the best interests of the presumptive heir. If they are operating on last orders, it seems to me that if Rhaegar specifically instructed to kill anyone who came for Lyanna, this likely was not what Lyanna would want. She shows no signs of hating her brother and wanting him dead.

[Dragonfish]

Ned and Robert had a falling out, so its not that crazy. And again, you gain nothing by killing ned at that point, even if the chances he would help arent great. The only reason to protect a legitimate heir to the throne by Lyanna is if you see Ned as a threat.

The Kingsguard don't know any of that. All they know is that the rebels took King's Landing, and one of them killed Rhaegar's children. I think it's pretty clear that this would be enough to make them wary of Ned, since he is one of the rebels.

Honestly, do you really think the Kingsguard would have expected Ned, a rebel lord who had risked all and fought for a year to depose a Targaryen king, to turn on his friend and new king Robert Baratheon, right when the war was all but won, only to put his newborn Targ nephew on the throne? I don't see how such an idea ought to have occurred to them.

The person who gave the orders is dead. Lyanna is in this theory the queen, do you think she gave any orders that Ned should be killed if he showed up?

I don't think Lyanna was in much of a position to give orders given that she was, you know, dying.