R + L = J Part XXIII

[kinghenry]

kinghenry-

First of all, welcome to the boards.

thanks for the welcome,..i do not think vary's relies solely on ravens for intelligence, walls have ears meaning he has got people in every possible location who report to him. There is no clear indication of Vary's loyalty towards Targs but he seems very close to, not just him all the small council, to High graden and high garden in the nearest thing to Targs right now. We also know high garden played a big part in the assassination of Jeoffry and I do not think it is in order to make Thoeman the king. They have systematically eliminated every one on both Stark and Lenister families who could call on a army that could take on the forces of high garden and North. Having done that they also wanted to take Sansa to high graden so then can make a claim for North. All this tells me Highgarden is playing a huge role in what is to come with the backing of vary's. That for me is a clear indication high garden know more then what we do and the prince is somewhere in the high garden. Cersey also makes reference to a basterd boy with them who looks like Rehegar. ( excuse my spelling of names, havent got the book with me at work to refer bak to)

[kinghenry]

if jon leaves the wall it will be either to avenge his fathers death or his brothers, both of which are being done so he has no need. it is possible he could be made to run from the wall to save his life but that will not be in his corrector. whatever he does he will stay on the wall and fight it out

[Aegon's Landing]

I think Jon will only leave the wall when and if it is no longer needed...or falls and is not needed to be re-built. His struggle with his vows will continue until that time (if it comes) but I trust he will choose his vows (specially when he learns Ned never fathered a bastard) :thumbsup: every time.

[Dragonfish]

thanks for the welcome,..i do not think vary's relies solely on ravens for intelligence, walls have ears meaning he has got people in every possible location who report to him.

Oh, Varys certainly has other ways of spying on people in King's Landing and in the Red Keep. But what we're talking about here is how he spies on people in other parts of the continent. As far as we know, the only way he's able to do this is to find someone to be a spy for him, then get this person to send him messages (either through riders or ravens, but most likely ravens as they are faster and less conspicuous) informing him of the goings on in their area. We don't really have any evidence that Varys had such a spy at the Tower of Joy. Certainly the fact that Varys didn't even know where Rhaegar was suggests this as a possibility.

There is no clear indication of Vary's loyalty towards Targs but he seems very close to, not just him all the small council, to High graden and high garden in the nearest thing to Targs right now.

I don't really remember where it is indicated that Varys is close to Highgarden.

I also don't see how Highgarden is "the nearest thing to Targs right now." It seems to me that the House that is "closest" to the Targs is House Martell. After all, we know that the Martells have Targ blood, and we know that Doran Martell has been trying to forge an alliance with the remaining Targ(s) in exile. In contrast, we don't really have any evidence that the Tyrells are working to restore Targ rule. Honestly, I think they're just in it for themselves. They want to expand their power base and become a dynasty, much like the Lannisters.

We also know high garden played a big part in the assassination of Jeoffry and I do not think it is in order to make Thoeman the king.

Well, it is implied/stated at various points that the Tyrells killed Joffrey so that Margaery wouldn't have to suffer his abuse. Until I see good evidence to the contrary, that's what I think their motivation was.

They have systematically eliminated every one on both Stark and Lenister families who could call on a army that could take on the forces of high garden and North. Having done that they also wanted to take Sansa to high graden so then can make a claim for North. All this tells me Highgarden is playing a huge role in what is to come with the backing of vary's.

As I said, the Tyrells are trying to expand their power base, but I'm not really sure how this indicates that they have the backing of Varys.

That for me is a clear indication high garden know more then what we do and the prince is somewhere in the high garden. Cersey also makes reference to a basterd boy with them who looks like Rehegar. ( excuse my spelling of names, havent got the book with me at work to refer bak to)

I think you're referring to Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark. But he's not really with the Tyrells, as far as we know. Driftmark is in the Crownlands, not the Reach.

[Slingingstones]

I don't believe so... he was told by Halfhand to live and fight amongst the wild people....

Although Jon had inner turmoil, he was obeying his NW superior... certainly killing Halfhand would also mean he broke his vows... but he did all of this in the name of duty to the NW... NOT for personal gain or advancement.....

Did he have internal struggles on how to proceed after he fell in love? Abso-freakin'-lutely he did.... but he came around and stayed true to his vows after his mission for the NW was done....

We are in agreement, UnHoly1.

All I'm saying is that a Vow is like Humpty-Dumpty...once broken, all the king's men cannot put it together again.

When soldiers raise their hand and swear their allegiance to king/country (take a vow or oath) during wartime desertion is punishable by death. After some soul-searching, the NW gave him a pass when they elevated him to LC. There are no mulligans for vow breaking. But, Jon, as we know, was ordered to break his vow for the good of the NW. However, in regard to Jon and Dany linking up (Ice & Fire), perhaps all things can be modified for the good of the realm.

[wallofice]

Varys' knowledge or lack thereof would have no impact on Jon's plausibility as a Targ. I don't think Varys knows (because of the aforementioned reasons regarding the 'little birds' being unable to travel to the Tower of Joy), but even if he did know, he could very easily be playing some extremely long con. Since we never get Varys or Littlfinger's POV, we have no idea how much they really do know.

I have no idea whether Jon will end up breaking his vows again or not, but based on his decision to reject being Lord of Winterfell, I guess he would stay on the wall regardless. Unless the Others are fought back, and/or he remembers Maester Aemon and how the majority of the realm's horribleness these last twenty years could have been avoided if dude had just accepted the crown long ago and decides to take a different route.

[Yeade]

First, a warm welcome to wallofice, Flit, and all the other new members! It's very exciting to see fresh minds at work on an old theory. B)

I am ashamed to admit that [R+L=J] didn't occur to me at all when I first read through the books. My friend started reading after the first episode of Game of Thrones, however, and she decided Rhaegar and Lyanna had to be Jon's parents during Ned and Robert's discussion about Wylla simply because "Ned would never be so weird around Robert otherwise."

There's absolutely no shame in not having divined R+L=J upon your first reading of the novels. I think whether you come to that conclusion or not is based on factors like how fast you read and the time you spend between chapters mulling over the content, how easily you handle the admittedly overwhelming amount of detail, etc. Essentially, it's more a matter of reading style and luck than skill and intelligence.

I do find your anecdote about how quickly your friend reaches R+L=J after watching the HBO series interesting, however, as it seems to fit my perception that the TV series makes the theory more obvious, the compression of a 800-page book to ten hours stripping away all the superfluous worldbuilding. Sean Bean's acting when Ned and Jon part in the second episode--the man looks like he's on the verge of tears when he solemnly vows to tell Jon of his mother next time they meet, even dropping a line ("I promise.") that's practically a waving red flag for R+L=J proponents--and the juxtaposition with, in the scene immediately following, Ned telling Robert Jon's mother is Wylla, prickly as hell, Robert's hatred of Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna, and Robert's desire to assassinate Dany for being a Targaryen and possibly continuing that house is all very suggestive of R+L=J, IMO, almost subliminally so.

On a related note, I feel the TV series has also caused an uptick in Jon/Dany shippers. Not only because viewers naturally want to see two of the most physically attractive characters, whose ages and genders neatly fit romantic conventions, fall in love and make many beautiful babies, lol, but due to the editing often, if not always, placing Jon and Dany in adjacent scenes. Hilarity ensues when these folks meet hardcore book fans who find Jon/Dany a boring cliche. Fandom sure is crazy fun! :laugh:

A lot of my distaste for R+L=J comes from the fact that, with the exception of Aemon, the Targaryens have a huge sense of entitlement, and that's my least favorite thing about Dany. Jon definitely has his place in the story, but I want him to earn it, not to get it handed to him because his dad happened to be Rhaegar.

Well, I'll just echo wallofice and SerArthurHeath here and say I, too, figure R+L=J will cause more trouble for Jon than it solves, at least initially.

SerArthurHeath, I'm curious why you feel Jon acts entitled, with perhaps the exception of his NW adjustment period in AGOT. One of the most common criticisms I've seen of Jon's characterization is that he's too passive. For instance, Jon hasn't the slightest notion of leveraging his successful defense of the Wall in ASOS into political capital or at least a rationale for keeping his head off the chopping block when he realizes Janos Slynt's about to be elected Lord Commander. He's apparently willing, though not quite content, to do his self-appointed duty of training the newest NW recruits while awaiting the decision of the NW officers on his desertion case. I mean, he doesn't even take part in the voting, despite the fact that his fate may hang on the results. This sort of reaction speaks to me of someone resigned to being constantly kicked in the teeth by life.

Jaime and Jon are similar, IMO, in that both have a desire to make something worthy and honorable of themselves. Where I feel they differ is that Jaime still kind of expects praise for deeds he deems laudable whereas Jon, while he enjoys recognition as much as the next man, doesn't really believe he'll ever succeed in proving himself a true son of Eddard Stark. Jon's always waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. On his head and heel down. Over at TWOP, I wrote:

No matter how staunchly he defends Ned Stark to others as a paragon of honor who'll choose duty over love, Jon's very existence is proof otherwise. That apparently everyone of consequence in the Seven Kingdoms knows him as the blackest stain on his father's largely impeccable reputation surely drives him harder to prove his worth, but I think it also creates in him a sense of futility because Jon dishonors his entire house simply by living, regardless of his personality or behavior. Furthermore, if the man he looks to as a moral guide suffered such a conspicuous lapse, how can he, already burdened by the stigma of being a bastard and the degeneracy this entails in Westeros, expect to do any better?

Plus, seems to me the argument that Jon's actions should have weight and merit regardless of his parentage is a double-edged sword. I favor R+L=J because it creates plot complications galore but, ultimately, I imagine these will serve as a vehicle for characterization. And, so long as GRRM delivers the fantastic characterization he's known for, does it matter what he uses for impetus? Well, assuming the plot developments make a modicum of sense.

Long story short, lol, I don't think you need worry overmuch about Jon not earning whatever comes to him, good or bad, corporatecake.

Jon finds out [about R+L=J] and cares a great deal, but after much soul searching he decides he must stay a member of the Night's Watch and do what is needed to defeat the Others. He then dies.

You and I are on the same brainwave. Though, personally, I'd like to see Jon utterly break his NW vows for the sake of the realm and willingly take the fatal consequences of such an act but not before he gains Dany's love and loses her, along with any hope of a future that includes a family of his own, crowns and renown.

On the reasons why I'd support an outcome some may find "cliched," I believe the kind of tragedy that has the deepest, most lasting impact on us is born of happiness ruined, potential lost, and hope unfulfilled. In order for, say, Jon's death to evoke maximum pathos, he must first truly experience the wonders life can offer, IMO. Otherwise, death is simply the final affirmation of a pathetic existence. No, I want Jon to suffer the pain of being parted from a dream he yearns for that's nearly within his grasp and to learn why regret is the bitterest of emotions. Death, then, is a sweet release to embrace, not fear. Would we readers be so anguished over the sad fates of so many of the Starks if we had not seen them as a loving family at the beginning of AGOT? I think not. YMMV, of course.

I think we ended up making the series more complicated than it will end up being.

Guilty as charged. :blush:

I'm afraid I've doomed myself to disappointment with all these years of wild speculation on future events in the series. I can't will myself to forget the epic awesomeness of fan theories like R+L=J, Robb legitimizing Jon as King in the North from beyond the grave, fat Lord Manderly secretly harboring Rickon in White Harbor and plotting the Stark ascension with Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, and Howland Reed, Bloodraven being the Three-Eyed Crow, Stannis and Melisandre reenacting the legend of the Night King, Drogon escaping back over the Dothraki sea so Dany can chase him down and receive her final tribute from the dosh khaleen, Sansa ending Littlefinger with a taste of his own poison and ruling the Vale with an iron fist in a silk glove, Arya knifing one or both of the Boltons and taking the Dreadfort for her own, etc., etc.

As much faith as I have in GRRM, it just doesn't seem likely that everything I've found cool and fitting over the years between books will make the final cut. In which case I'll forever be haunted by the might-have-beens, spectacular canon happenings notwithstanding.

[SerArthurHeath]

True, Jon's sense of self entitlement and angst has decreased from aGoT, and by aFfC's few glimpses and his spoiler chapters (do I need to spoiler this?) je seemed far more mature. But the manner in which he allows others to role him and allows his annoyance at being a bastard and at his situation to drive him to beat a surrendered sparring opponent to a pulp whilst he had been unarmed still show that he is strongly influenced by how hard done by he feels. But watching the show and seeing his whininess in GoT all over again has probably biased my view.

I completely agree with the comparison to Jaime, which makes it odd that I prefer Jaime, when he is a far worse person. I think I just find the character fascinating. I can see hard times for Jon ahead and I fo enjoy seeing how his decisions compare and contrast to Ned's

[Buried Treasure]

No matter how staunchly he defends Ned Stark to others as a paragon of honor who'll choose duty over love, Jon's very existence is proof otherwise. That apparently everyone of consequence in the Seven Kingdoms knows him as the blackest stain on his father's largely impeccable reputation surely drives him harder to prove his worth, but I think it also creates in him a sense of futility because Jon dishonors his entire house simply by living, regardless of his personality or behavior. Furthermore, if the man he looks to as a moral guide suffered such a conspicuous lapse, how can he, already burdened by the stigma of being a bastard and the degeneracy this entails in Westeros, expect to do any better?

Very much agree with this, nicely written.

You and I are on the same brainwave. Though, personally, I'd like to see Jon utterly break his NW vows for the sake of the realm and willingly take the fatal consequences of such an act but not before he gains Dany's love and loses her, along with any hope of a future that includes a family of his own, crowns and renown.

enings notwithstanding.

I find it interesting here that you think Jon will be 'seeking to gain Dany's love. My own view is that if R+L=J became widely known it would be Dany that would be pursuing the romantic line. She is always desperate for more connection to her family. Jon I think will not be looking for romance, per his storylines in the previous books and Bran's dreams of him growing colder. It would be an experience for Dany to be rebuffed, since for one reason or another she is now courted by almost everybody she meets.

[History of Westeros]

This has been mentioned countless times, and is one of the most inarguable points available in this debate to prove that Jon is not the son of Ned. I don't see it in this current incarnation of the debate, so it bears re-mention.

If you read Ned's chapters, you will find that he never once thinks of Jon as his son. In Ned's inner dialogue, when he's not thought of as simply "Jon" or "Jon Snow" (which proves nothing) he thinks of him as "the boy", (which is very telling). There's even one moment where he thinks of his children, and Jon, separately. This is glaringly obvious. If the man doesn't think of the child as his son *inside his own mind* then you can be pretty damn certain it's the truth.

It doesn't prove R+L = J, but it does all but prove N+? != J.

[wallofice]

First, a warm welcome to wallofice, Flit, and all the other new members! It's very exciting to see fresh minds at work on an old theory. B)

There's absolutely no shame in not having divined R+L=J upon your first reading of the novels. I think whether you come to that conclusion or not is based on factors like how fast you read and the time you spend between chapters mulling over the content, how easily you handle the admittedly overwhelming amount of detail, etc. Essentially, it's more a matter of reading style and luck than skill and intelligence.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm glad to be here. :thumbsup: And the reason I didn't see the connection at first was definitely because I was trying to get through each book as quickly as possible, haha. I'm going back and reading them slowly now in preparation for Dance with Dragons, so more will become clear to me. :smoking:

I find it interesting here that you think Jon will be 'seeking to gain Dany's love. My own view is that if R+L=J became widely known it would be Dany that would be pursuing the romantic line. She is always desperate for more connection to her family. Jon I think will not be looking for romance, per his storylines in the previous books and Bran's dreams of him growing colder. It would be an experience for Dany to be rebuffed, since for one reason or another she is now courted by almost everybody she meets.

Wow, I kind of love this idea. If there is indeed any romance story to be had between Jon and Dany, it would indeed be a change of pace to see her as the pursuer and him rejecting her. Well, different for Dany, haha. Not so much for Jon.

[Wik]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm glad to be here. :thumbsup: And the reason I didn't see the connection at first was definitely because I was trying to get through each book as quickly as possible, haha. I'm going back and reading them slowly now in preparation for Dance with Dragons, so more will become clear to me. :smoking:

People claim the theory is "obvious" but with so much new blood coming into the series its great to see new faces and have them be honest about what they saw and didn't see. It only proves many people who assume its so obvious are unable to consider what it is like for many first time readers of the series. It is NOT an obvious theory, it has taken a lot of effort to put the evidence together and still much more work to be done. Anyhow, don't worry about missing it. It took me until my fourth re-read (before I knew these forums existed too!) to realize and put it all together :blushing: Also, hope you enjoy the boards, welcome :thumbsup:

Wow, I kind of love this idea. If there is indeed any romance story to be had between Jon and Dany, it would indeed be a change of pace to see her as the pursuer and him rejecting her. Well, different for Dany, haha. Not so much for Jon.

Yes, this idea is good. It is definitely from a different angle.

To get back on topic, a thread earlier today brought up a situation I had never considered and it closely relates to RLJ, so I thought I would add it in here and see what people think; Aerys legitimizes Jon, prior to the sacking of KL. I think of a scenario like this:

We know Aerys and Rhaegar had a strained relationship leading up to this point. Enough so that Rhaegar plans to try and overthrow his father for the throne, AFTER the rebellion is over. The Battle of the Bells takes place, the Targs realize the shit really has hit the fan and they have a growing rebellion on their hands. Aerys sacks Connington and send him to exile and Rhaegar comes to KL knowing Aerys is going to make him lead the army. Rhaegar, who has already impregnated Lyanna, confronts his father, "Alright, i'll lead this army and try to end this rebellion. But Lyanna Stark is south of here and with child. In return for me leading this army, you are going to legitimize that child, right now, as my son and he will be in the line of succession. And for protection, I'm sending Ser Arthur, Ser Gerold and Ser Oswell of the KG, just in case things go bad."

Aerys is crazy and doesn't care so he goes for it with NP. This would explain the lack of a septon marrying them, because they wouldn't have been married. This info (the papers, the writ from Aerys, signed and sealed), it was later suggested, is in Lyanna's tomb, in the crypts of WInterfell, waiting to be discovered.

I'm not so sure on the last part. In general the whole theory is pure speculation, but the general pace/feel/timeline and events all seem VERY plausible. Feel free to hale it as the greatest idea since sliced bread or shoot all the holes you want in it lol. Just thought it was something different that I had never considered before.

[Dragonfish]

To get back on topic, a thread earlier today brought up a situation I had never considered and it closely relates to RLJ, so I thought I would add it in here and see what people think; Aerys legitimizes Jon, prior to the sacking of KL. I think of a scenario like this:

We know Aerys and Rhaegar had a strained relationship leading up to this point. Enough so that Rhaegar plans to try and overthrow his father for the throne, AFTER the rebellion is over. The Battle of the Bells takes place, the Targs realize the shit really has hit the fan and they have a growing rebellion on their hands. Aerys sacks Connington and send him to exile and Rhaegar comes to KL knowing Aerys is going to make him lead the army. Rhaegar, who has already impregnated Lyanna, confronts his father, "Alright, i'll lead this army and try to end this rebellion. But Lyanna Stark is south of here and with child. In return for me leading this army, you are going to legitimize that child, right now, as my son and he will be in the line of succession. And for protection, I'm sending Ser Arthur, Ser Gerold and Ser Oswell of the KG, just in case things go bad."

Aerys is crazy and doesn't care so he goes for it with NP. This would explain the lack of a septon marrying them, because they wouldn't have been married. This info (the papers, the writ from Aerys, signed and sealed), it was later suggested, is in Lyanna's tomb, in the crypts of WInterfell, waiting to be discovered.

I'm not so sure on the last part. In general the whole theory is pure speculation, but the general pace/feel/timeline and events all seem VERY plausible. Feel free to hale it as the greatest idea since sliced bread or shoot all the holes you want in it lol. Just thought it was something different that I had never considered before.

It's an interesting idea. However, as someone else said in the other thread, it does seem a bit strange that Rhaegar would try to leverage a legimization out of Aerys, when he fully expected to survive the Trident and depose him. If he believed he would soon be the king himself, then why would he have felt the need to get Jon legitmized right then and there, rather than once the fighting was done?

[Wik]

It's an interesting idea. However, as someone else said in the other thread, it does seem a bit strange that Rhaegar would try to leverage a legimization out of Aerys, when he fully expected to survive the Trident and depose him. If he believed he would soon be the king himself, then why would he have felt the need to get Jon legitmized right then and there, rather than once the fighting was done?

Rhaegar is a smart guy. War is uncertain business. He wasn't planning on losing the battle/war but neither did Hitler. In war, shit happens. Any good commander knows, sometimes the unknown is what screws you. You can't plan for everything. Anytime you go into battle, you have a chance to die. Regardless of if your the crown prince or a peasant who just got done harvesting your fields.

Rhaegar knew there was a chance, however small, that he might not return. He planned on deposing dear ole dad but why not secure what he can NOW and not leave it to chance? This is a new born child, one he assumes is a major part of the Targ dynasty and vitally important to the prophecy he is so hell bent on fulfilling. With the rash behavior of Rhaegar which lead, in part, to the rebellion, is it too much of a stretch to assume he would try to secure the best possible situation for his new little guy ASAP rather than putting it off?

[Dragonfish]

Rhaegar is a smart guy. War is uncertain business. He wasn't planning on losing the battle/war but neither did Hitler. In war, shit happens. Any good commander knows, sometimes the unknown is what screws you. You can't plan for everything. Anytime you go into battle, you have a chance to die. Regardless of if your the crown prince or a peasant who just got done harvesting your fields.

Rhaegar knew there was a chance, however small, that he might not return. He planned on deposing dear ole dad but why not secure what he can NOW and not leave it to chance? This is a new born child, one he assumes is a major part of the Targ dynasty and vitally important to the prophecy he is so hell bent on fulfilling. With the rash behavior of Rhaegar which lead, in part, to the rebellion, is it too much of a stretch to assume he would try to secure the best possible situation for his new little guy ASAP rather than putting it off?

I honestly don't think Rhaegar ever doubted he would return from the Trident. Certainly his conversation with Jaime seems to indicate this ("We will speak more when I return from the battle," or something like that). I think he believed he had to survive because there was some sort of prophecy he needed to fulfill. I also think he viewed Robert as more of a nuisance than a real threat. He knew that the true battle would be for the Dawn; the rebellion was, I believe, a minor inconvenience in his eyes.

[Yeade]

[T]he manner in which [Jon] allows others to rile him and allows his annoyance at being a bastard and at his situation to drive him to beat a surrendered sparring opponent to a pulp whilst he had been unarmed still show that he is strongly influenced by how hard done by he feels.

Well, you know, being a hero isn't exactly conducive to mental health. I'd always chalked up Jon's occasional bursts of berserker rage to his constant repression and disassociation. Which, IMO, is not uncommon in heroic characters. Take Luke Skywalker flying into a rage and almost killing his father despite his previously stated intent of redeeming Vader in ROTJ. And Jon arguably has even more anger issues than Luke because 1) he possibly spends his whole childhood consciously being the bestest brother ever due to feeling his position in the Stark household is contingent on his good behavior regardless of whether it actually is or not and 2) he hasn't, so far as I can tell, dealt with his impotent rage or guilt over the apparent deaths of his entire family.

Heroes are so good at compartmentalizing pain that they can trick themselves into believing they're not in fact still hurting, IMO. Seems to me Jon never decides to let others rile him; more like he's telling himself to keep calm, keep calm, then suddenly finds himself trying to gut Alliser Thorne at the dinner table. It's almost a kind of temporary insanity, a totally instinctual lashing out when Jon's internal and maybe unconscious walls fail to contain emotions he won't acknowledge.

On a related note, Jon has a lot of violent, disturbing dreams for a guy who isn't too concerned with prophecy. Again, I figure the anger and guilt he refuses to face while awake haunt him at night, taking on ever more twisted shapes. There's his recurring dream of the Winterfell crypts and a feast for the dead from which he's barred. A little worryingly, to my mind, Jon's bitterly disappointed he can't join Ned and Robb. After he betrays Ygritte, he dreams of her skin and flesh falling off until only a skeleton remains in a red pool beneath a weirwood with his father's face. From one of the ADWD chapters GRRM read at conventions and such:

Jon confounds his guilt over Robb's death and forcing Gilly to abandon her baby for Mance Rayder's son in a dream involving him sewing the heads of the two children on the wrong bodies.

Guy's got issues. ISSUES, I tell you! Until he consciously makes his peace with these, I think Jon will continue to be prone to bouts of madness.

I find it interesting here that you think Jon will be seeking to gain Dany's love. My own view is that if R+L=J became widely known it would be Dany that would be pursuing the romantic line. She is always desperate for more connection to her family. Jon I think will not be looking for romance, per his storylines in the previous books and Bran's dreams of him growing colder. It would be an experience for Dany to be rebuffed, since for one reason or another she is now courted by almost everybody she meets.

Disclaimer: It is not my intention to start an off-topic discussion of Jon/Dany but, as I've spent significant time and effort shipping Jon with practically everyone who isn't a parental figure, not to mention inanimate objects and concepts (e.g. Jon/The Wall, Jon/His NW Vows), I just can't resist clarifying my original point. :blush:

I actually hope to see hesitation on both sides of the potential Jon/Dany match, though I agree Dany will end up courting Jon rather than vice versa. Assuming Jon's still in the NW when he meets Dany, his vows are the most obvious obstacle to him being in a romantic relationship with any woman. I, too, figure Jon will be an icicle of a man, who perhaps still desires love (really, who doesn't?) but no longer expects it and whose default method of interaction with strangers or uncertain allies is cold courtesy frosted with scathing bits of sarcasm. Not a personality that encourages close friendliness. An effect I believe will be enhanced by dark rumors of Jon being a warg and his ruthlessness in command or with sword in hand. Furthermore, if my favorite variation of R+L=J pans out, Dany may in fact fear Jon to be a legitimate threat to her throne who must somehow be neutralized as his ambition and trustworthiness are both unknown. She's likely to already have one husband or at least an engagement, if not two, before she ever lays eyes on Jon, as well. Let's shelve the matter of incest for now.

So, basically, lots and lots of problems! However, I imagine the physical attraction between Jon and Dany will be there from the start. I also tend to think these two will develop into exactly the type of person the other wants in a lover. Both are simply going to take extended river cruises on the Nile, so to speak. Dany will leave Egypt first, lol, for the novel experience of a man who's clearly interested in her but refuses to do anything about it. Yes, I want Jon to rebuff Dany a couple times but gradually come to the realization that she's gotten completely under his skin anyways. I generally treat the Jon/Dany romance as an opportunity to unbalance two characters who will probably be quite accustomed to being in control by the time they meet. Nothing throws you off your game as quickly as true love, unexpectedly found, after all.

Ultimately, I do want Jon and Dany together. Relatively happy, too. Jon may have to take the final step if Dany's too uncertain after being rejected earlier. Only then would I be content breaking and/or killing these two characters. Does that make me cruel? ^_^

Now that I've spent nearly the entire post expounding on non-R+L=J topics, lol, a question tangentially connected to the theory.

Besides Bloodraven, have the Targaryens ever bred into a northern house? Or, specifically, the Starks? I'm afraid I don't know much about the Targaryen family tree, though I suppose the best prospects for the blood of the First Men mingling with that of Valyria are Aegon the Unworthy's many bastards. With the North isolated geographically and culturally from the other kingdoms, it strikes me as a bit strange that the Targaryens didn't bind this potential secession crisis more closely to the Iron Throne by taking a Stark bride or two. Then again, there's that whole blood purity thing. And maybe the North is simply so stoic and forbidding everyone finds it easier to forget about it.

I ask because, of course, the First Men and the Valyrians each have an associated branch of magics, quite distinct from one another that, at least in the person of Bloodraven, apparently makes for a rather potent combination. Not that I'm saying Jon's heading toward a bright career as a sorcerer thanks to R+L=J, lol. Just curious whether there are any effects. I know dragon skinchanging's been proposed...

[SD Stark]

If you read Ned's chapters, you will find that he never once thinks of Jon as his son. In Ned's inner dialogue, when he's not thought of as simply "Jon" or "Jon Snow" (which proves nothing) he thinks of him as "the boy", (which is very telling). There's even one moment where he thinks of his children, and Jon, separately. This is glaringly obvious. If the man doesn't think of the child as his son *inside his own mind* then you can be pretty damn certain it's the truth.

It doesn't prove R+L = J, but it does all but prove N+? != J.

Ned also refer's to Bran and Robb as "the boy." Is that also telling?

Regarding the list, you should account for the entire passage. There are two sentences in Ned's internal dialogue which are separated by an "Even more so..." which is used for grammatical purposes. Here's a simple example.

I hate brown recluses, tarantulas, and wolf spiders. Even more so, I got bit by a black widow and now the sight of them gives me shivers!

I know this passage is relatively simple, but it's the same grammatical structure as the part concerning Ned's children, and this effects the interpretation tremendously.

[Dragonfish]

Regarding the list, you should account for the entire passage. There are two sentences in Ned's internal dialogue which are separated by an "Even more so..." which is used for grammatical purposes. Here's a simple example.

I hate brown recluses, tarantulas, and wolf spiders. Even more so, I got bit by a black widow and now the sight of them gives me shivers!

I know this passage is relatively simple, but it's the same grammatical structure as the part concerning Ned's children, and this effects the interpretation tremendously.

Incorrect.

The sentence beginning "Even more so" does not demonstrate that Ned is thinking of Jon as his son. If Ned said to himself, "Even more so, what would I do if it were Jon's life, against the life of another child?", then that would be the case. But that's not what he says. What he says is, "Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?" He does not say or imply that Jon is his son in this sentence; rather, he uses Jon as an example of a child Catelyn knows, so as to make the dilemma more difficult, in contrast to the dilemma Ned asks about himself ("If it came to...the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?"). That is why Ned says "even more so": because the dilemma he proposes for Catelyn is theoretically more difficult than the dilemma he proposes for himself.

The simple fact is, Ned does not think of Jon as his child in this passage. There are really only three explanations for this, as far as I can tell:

1. Jon is not on Ned's mind. I think we both agree that this cannot be the case, as Ned mentions Jon in the very next sentence.

2. Ned forgot Jon momentarily, but then remembers him right after forgetting him. Technically possible, but the way the passage is written doesn't really suggest this. Plus, what would be the point of this? Why would Martin purposefully write this passage so as to make Ned forget Jon for a second, only to remember him in the very next sentence? Doesn't sound very plausible, IMO.

3. Ned is only listing his trueborn children. Doesn't really make sense. Cersei asks Ned if he loves his children; not his trueborn children, but his children in general. Doesn't Ned loves Jon just as much as his trueborn children? Wouldn't he face a dilemma if he had to choose between Jon's life and the life of another child, every bit as much as if it were his trueborn children's lives involved? There's really no reason for Ned to leave Jon out here, because his bastardy has no bearing on the fact that Ned loves him and would face a dilemma over protecting him if it meant another child's life.

Now, perhaps you could come up with some other explanation(s) for why Ned does not think of Jon as his son here, and if you could then I'd be happy to go over them. But for now, these are the only explanations I can think of, and none of them really make sense. The only logical conclusion, IMO, is that Ned doesn't think of Jon as his son because Jon isn't actually his son.

[SD Stark]

Incorrect.

The sentence beginning "Even more so" does not demonstrate that Ned is thinking of Jon as his son. If Ned said to himself, "Even more so, what would I do if it were Jon's life, against the life of another child?", then that would be the case. But that's not what he says. What he says is, "Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body?" He does not say or imply that Jon is his son in this sentence; rather, he uses Jon as an example of a child Catelyn knows, so as to make the dilemma more difficult, in contrast to the dilemma Ned asks about himself ("If it came to...the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?"). That is why Ned says "even more so": because the dilemma he proposes for Catelyn is theoretically more difficult than the dilemma he proposes for himself.

I see we're going to start arguing semantics here, but here goes. If we are not supposed to imply that Jon is Ned's son, why is the distinction made for "children of her body?" If the rationale is as simple as you state, the distinction about the children being of her body would be unnecessary. Your interpretation of the statement would be served by stating, "What would Catelyn do if it were Jon's life against the lives of her children?"

Some writers, and editors, might actually consider it redundant to have Jon mentioned in both sentences. Notice the kid's names aren't used again. The only other way to write that without using Jon's name twice is to say, "What would Catelyn do if it was his son's life against her children's lives?" Of course we don't know if Jon is Ned's son, and Martin doesn't want to reveal that yet. That's another reason why I believe people are misinterpreting this passage. Martin doesn't want us to know, yet!

On a side note, it would sound a lot better if there was an "I believe" before your assertion that I'm incorrect. If it was Martin telling me that, I'd be inclined to listen, but coming from another poster who is also interpreting another person's written words, it tends to come off as condescending and arrogant. I haven't gotten that impression from you in the past, so I'm hopeful that wasn't your intent. I know this is a thread where probably over 90% of the posters agree with you, but that still seems like bad form. JMHO.

[wallofice]

I don't think it's meant to imply a distinction between Ned's trueborn children and his bastard children, simply because Cersei is the one asking him the question. All of Cersei's kids are bastards, and Ned knows this, so why wouldn't Ned think about his own bastards when contemplating her question about loving one's children?

And then the distinction for Catelyn between Jon and the children of her body could just be that while she didn't give birth to Jon, she has raised him in her home and watched him grow (as much as she may resent that fact). As far as she knows, this is her husband's son - a son he loved enough to bring home to live with his family. So what would she do if she had to choose between him or Robb, etc.?

But that's just my interpretation. Even without thinking that Jon must automatically be Lyanna's son, reading that line in Ned's thoughts makes me feel that he doesn't think of Jon as one of his own children. Either because he loves Jon less, or because Jon really isn't.