R + L = J Part XXIII

[Breedy]

[Hi, I'm new here]

Why Ashara Dayne commited suicide?

Therory (IMO Reason is logical and obvious:)

1. She have fallen in love in Eddar Stark

2. Eddar Stark was Loyal to Catelyn

3. Ashara told Eddar for some reason (she simply loved him, so she wanted to help him) the her broder Arthur is

4. Eddar went to Tower of Joy, Arthur was killed

5. Ashara thought she is responsible for her brother death, and she known she cannot live with men she love

6. Ashara killed herself

This theory do not support L+R=J theory directly, but IMO is good way of explaining some events.

I'm new as well and these are my thoughts.

1. Ashara was to wed Ned Stark (remember everyone around him was getting hitched. Brandon, Robert, Lyanna, Cat, Lysa, and Jon Arryn.

2. The marriage was to help secure the alliances being made for the rebellion.

3. Someone convinced Robert that Lyanna was kidnapped

4. That was the catalyst for the rebellion, but the seeds had been planted for a while. (reference Darry and the kings capture)

5. Ned and crew kill Arthur

6. Ned returns with Dawn and Jon and proceeds to inform Ashara that he can not marry her now

7. She jumps of the tower in grief.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

With her body never recovered, I do not believe Ashara Dayne commited suicide.

[KyleLitke]

I also doubt Ashara and Ned were actually definitely going to be married. The logic makes sense that it might be what they had in mind originally, ala Cersei and Rhaegar (where Tywin had that planned but there was never any definitive decision until Aerys said no), but I doubt it was that far along. It would be quite an insult to the Daynes to actually get that far then say "Nah, nevermind".

[Breedy]

I also doubt Ashara and Ned were actually definitely going to be married. The logic makes sense that it might be what they had in mind originally, ala Cersei and Rhaegar (where Tywin had that planned but there was never any definitive decision until Aerys said no), but I doubt it was that far along. It would be quite an insult to the Daynes to actually get that far then say "Nah, nevermind".

More insulting than killing "the Sword of the Morning"?

The whole thing fell apart wheh Rheagar and Lyanna went off and became the catalyst for the open full on rebellion.

[KyleLitke]

More insulting than killing "the Sword of the Morning"?

The whole thing fell apart wheh Rheagar and Lyanna went off and became the catalyst for the open full on rebellion.

That's comparing apples and hand grenades.

Arthur Dayne died in combat with Ned after the war was already over because Ned was trying to get to his sister and three members of the Kingsguard were preventing him from doing so. Any theoretical marriage would have been before the war even began and would have been when they were trying to get allies together for their war. Two extremely different things.

There's a world of difference between what happened with Ned and Arthur Dayne, and the idea that Ned was promised to another woman definitively (not just a vague someday, perhaps, that I could believe) and then broke it off because "Yeah, we like the Tully's way better than you". That's a big middle finger to them at a time when they're trying to get allies. And I'm not sure how likely it is that Ned marrying Catelyn was a sure thing, no question, must happen marriage or Hoster won't get involved. If Jon and Lysa was still in the cards, he'd be tied through them, plus Catelyn always could have married someone else (One of the Baratheons? Stannis or Renly, and after Lyanna's death, even Robert). Hoster obviously wanted it and it was the honorable thing to do under the circumstances, but I really doubt it would have been the "honorable thing to do" if Ned was already betrothed to Ashara.

[Arthanis]

As I remember Ned was married with Cat long before Ashara Suicide...

[Songstress]

omg, i can't believe it.. i stopped checking the board for a couple of months and here's the 23 topic. wow :D

EDIT: i'll need to check the previous threads then! lol

Actually, I believe we went from 12 directly to 23. Roman numeral fail.

[Mr Crannogman]

Just the opposite. You have made lots of good points. Yet I disagree with them.

Catelyn was loyal to Winterfell, heart and soul. Ned loved Cat and Cat loved Ned. Fullstop. Why would Ned taunt Cat with a "pretend bastard" for 15 years if hJon was actually his nephew? It makes no sense. We all know, plus Ned knows that Catelyn is hard out for Winterfall. Even if Cat was born at Riverrun, everyone knows she turned into a Winterfell-chick. Cat is so loyal to Winterfell it's not funny. Justifiably so as well. Cat has given birth to 5 children of Winterfell. No wonder she is such a staunch proponent of Winterfell.

So, to believe R+L=J you have to believe that Ned didn't properly trust Cat to keep the secret.

You also have to believe that 16 year old Lyanna had a baby in her arms and told Ned to take the baby but promise to never anyone who the baby was.

Also, you need to believe that wolf is stronger than dragon and Jon has absolutely no dragon traits.

So Jon is Rhaegar's son and one of the three heads of a dragon? lol... like lol.... Jon is a total wolf. He has no traits of dragon what so ever. None. As in zero traits of a dragon. In all povs and every sentence of the book there is zero hint of Jon having any dragon traits. EVER.

I'll stop this post here coz it's getting long, but I mean, come on.... read the books properly, nothing says Jon is a dragon/Targ.

The only mystery here is who was Jon's mother.

Look at what we know so far: Ned made some mistakes when he felt honor-bound to do something. If he made a promise to Lyanna to tell no one [promise me Ned], then he wouldn't tell Cat, even if he should've. I think we all agree that he should have told Robert immediately about Jaime/Cersei, should have accepted Renly's help, should have done many things to avoid his fate, but he didn't. Same with Jon's parentage. So yes, Ned would flaunt a pretend bastard in front of Cat to fulfill his oath.

This is a medieval world where women are wedded and bedded soon after flowering, so a 16 year old Lyanna with a baby doesn't seem that farfetched.

And we don't necessarily have to believe that Jon has no Targaryen traits, just because he looks like a Stark; from what we know of Rhaegar, he seems a lot like him temperamentally.

[Breedy]

As I remember Ned was married with Cat long before Ashara Suicide...

I'll be honest I don't know the whole time line. I'm willing to wager news travels much slower during the rebellion so it would be next to impossibe to guess wither Ashara knew or not.

I guess my assertion is Jon Arryn seemed to be consilidating a lot of houses around himself. His wards played very prominent roles in the rebellion and the marriages helped strength him. Are we to assume he was the kindly old father or mayhaps he was playing "the Game of Thrones" and Brandon riding off after Lyanna and the subsequent events forced his hand.

The old saying goes "the proof is in the pudding" and with Robert out wenching, drinking and hunting Jon Arryn ruled for all practically purposes.

Pfftt...where do you think little finger learned al his tricks at?

[Wik]

As I remember Ned was married with Cat long before Ashara Suicide...

Correct. The above theories have timeline issues that can't be fixed. Ned was married to Cat before he could have married Ashara.

[estrellas]

It's Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover, in the middle of ASOS. Jason Mallister is currently a prisoner in his own castle.

I would be very surprised if we see Howland Reed in ADWD.

I think it's possible Jon Snow and Howland Reed meet in person in ADWD. If Howland becomes at all curious about where his kids have gone, he might decide to make the journey north to find them. He might have a touch of the greensight as well, after all, or he might have some other way of knowing where they went. You'd think he'd be a little concerned about what happened to his progeny.

[Kadence]

Can't believe people are still talking about this, I mean Jon has a thing for redhead girls "touched by fire", definitive undeniable proof he's a Targ :P

[Galen M]

Can't believe people are still talking about this, I mean Jon has a thing for redhead girls "touched by fire", definitive undeniable proof he's a Targ :P

nah, it's proof that he has UST (Unresolved Sexual Tension) with his stepmother.

[Wras]

nah, it's proof that he has UST (Unresolved Sexual Tension) with his stepmother.

Oh god. I am never going to be able to re-read the series the same way.

[wallofice]

With her body never recovered, I do not believe Ashara Dayne commited suicide.

I feel like you just blew my mind. I just took it for granted that she killed herself. Of course, I also took it for granted that Wylla was Jon's mom when I first started reading the series, so that shows how deeply I was looking into things... :shocked:

[Ishuäl]

Here's a random thought, maybe some of you can disprove it: What if... Jon as Lyanna's child wasn't Rhaegar's, but the Sword of the Morning's? I mean, from a literary point of view we've had much more connections between Jon and Lyanna than Jon and Rhaegar (even though there was an undeniable connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but maybe he was just helping her to get away from Robert to her beloved Arthur? ;) ) And if we need to pair off Rhaegar with anyone other than Elia, it could've been Ashara Dayne, thus maybe resulting in Edric?

I am aware that I'm just speculating wildly, but can anyone tell me more about the probability of this or part of it being true?

[Reposado]

And if we need to pair off Rhaegar with anyone other than Elia, it could've been Ashara Dayne, thus maybe resulting in Edric?

I am aware that I'm just speculating wildly, but can anyone tell me more about the probability of this or part of it being true?

As to this part, Edric was born about three years after Rhaegar died.

As for Howland Reed, I don't think we need him to appear. Jojen and Meera likely know the whole story, as hinted to when Meera finishes the tourney story and says, but that's an even sadder story. Just because they haven't told Bran yet, doesn't mean we can't get the story from them eventually.

[SFDanny]

Here's a random thought, maybe some of you can disprove it: What if... Jon as Lyanna's child wasn't Rhaegar's, but the Sword of the Morning's? I mean, from a literary point of view we've had much more connections between Jon and Lyanna than Jon and Rhaegar (even though there was an undeniable connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but maybe he was just helping her to get away from Robert to her beloved Arthur?

Can't disprove it, but where there are many clues pointing to a romantic relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar there is absolutely nothing that points to such between Lyanna and Ser Arthur. Possible? Yes, but highly unlikely.

[Dragonfish]

Here's a random thought, maybe some of you can disprove it: What if... Jon as Lyanna's child wasn't Rhaegar's, but the Sword of the Morning's? I mean, from a literary point of view we've had much more connections between Jon and Lyanna than Jon and Rhaegar (even though there was an undeniable connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but maybe he was just helping her to get away from Robert to her beloved Arthur? ;) )

This is not impossible, though it does clash with everything we've heard about Arthur Dayne. I think it's clear that Ned respects Arthur greatly for being a man who sticks to his oaths, even to the last. Arthur Dayne himself also seems to be fairly self-righteous about his having "sworn an oath" in Ned's dream. It would be odd of this man turned out to have broken his oath by fathering a child.

[Ishuäl]

All good reasons. It would just be terribly ironic if Jon really was noone of significance by birth