R + L = J Part XXIII

[Apan]

I have a theory about Jon not having Targaryen's features.

As we know from Meera's tale Howland Reed knows some magic. He could have casted a spell on baby Jon to hide his Targaryen appearence

[LadyMary]

I don't think we're ever given any indication what the noble caste as a whole believes happened. Most likely some thing she was raped, and others think she went willingly, and whichever story they believe probably depends on which side of the war they fought on.

Perhaps. Aerys apparently had promise and didn't go batty until after the Defiance of Duskendale, so I suppose it's possible that something similar started happening to Rhaegar. However, the thing that keeps me from endorsing this point of view is the fact that Rhaegar wanted to depose Aerys when the war was over. That sort of thing sounds like something he would do only once he fully accepted that his father was too far gone; it doesn't feel very consistent with the theory that Rhaegar was crazy (even if only a little crazy).

I can't remember who said it in the books, but there was that reference to the songs being sung about Robert and Rhaegar fighting each other for the woman they both claimed to love, which has to be Lyanna (unless Robert secretly harbored love for Elia). So, common knowledge was that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, which I think makes it less likely he would kidnap or rape her. Does a man force a woman he loves into a relationship she doesn't want even for a higher purpose? I find that unlikely...unless he was crazy. I think Rhaegar was obsessive about the prophesy and melancholic of temperament but not insane like his father.

Barristan, Jorah and anyone else who speaks of Rhaegar - except Robert, the aggrieved fiancee, speak of Rhaegar as a serious-minded, noble prince of good character and at that point at least, his behavior didn't seem to exhibit his father's kind of madness. He waited too long to promise to depose his father, but I wonder if him taking 6 of 7 King's Guards out of the Red Keep was a way of consolidating his forces for the coup d'etat against his father after the war. He just never got a chance because Robert killed him.

[Ser Pistus]

I have a theory about Jon not having Targaryen's features.

As we know from Meera's tale Howland Reed knows some magic. He could have casted a spell on baby Jon to hide his Targaryen appearence

And probably he did the same 130 years ago to Egg's uncle, Baelor Breakspear. His hair and eyes were also brown.

[Str1fe5]

Welcome to the board, Str1fe5.

I'm a bit confused by this question. Are you asking what good reason Ned would have for claiming Jon is his son if a Targaryen was not his father?

Yes, that's what I'm asking. If Lyanna is the mother, and the father is not a Targaryen, why would Ned claim him as his own son? He could easily foster a bastard nephew by his deceased sister, assuming the father wouldn't acknowledge him (or is also dead). I've also yet to find a plausible theory to who the father could be other than Ned or Rhaeger (not trying to turn this into a full Jon parentage tree, just trying the counterarguments to R+L=J out to highlight why R+L=J is the most likely scenario).

It also doesn't make sense why Ned would be so damn tight lipped about Jon's mother if it was as simple as her being the dead Ashara Dayne or a Wylla. If it was Wylla, why not just say so? She sure as hell isn't going to challenge his right to raise his own son. If it was Ashara, perhaps they argued over who got to raise Jon and that's why she committed suicide? But why would she do that, when it's pretty clear if she admitted to having a child out of wedlock that her marriage possibilities would be torpedo'd? Hell, why would Ned insist on bringing Jon back in that situation anyway? "Here, you raise the kid, if you don't want to acknowledge him, that's fine I'll acknowledge him on Wylla," but Ashara would still get to raise him. And it still makes no sense why he wouldn't acknowledge Ashara as the mother..

Last, the timeline still is fuzzy to me. In the span of just over a year, Ned basically travels over the entire continent of Westeros during the war. He goes from the Eyrie to Gulltown, then from Gulltown to Winterfell to raise his banners, then south to Riverrun to talk Hoster into giving him his banners (and possibly wed Catelyn there at Riverrun), then Stoney Sept, then King's Landing, then Storm's End, and finally the Tower of Joy, with any number of minor skirmishes between Storm's End and the Tower of Joy being included in the "finished off the war in the south himself" time period. Ned could have sired a child at any number of locations during that time span, but when and how exactly was he supposed to get the Raven telling him that he'd had a son born of his infidelity, then double back to pick Jon up before returning to Riverrun to pick up his wife and Robb? Given how close Robb and Jon are in age, Ned needed to have sired Jon somewhere close to when he was with Catelyn.

In the SSM, he implies that Ashara moved around during the war. But she was on the opposite side, being super tight with Elia and all, not to mention her brother being a sworn brother of the Kingsguard and all that. When would he have gotten a random night with the sister of an opposing commander to sleep with her?

And of course there's the tricky part about why the Kingsguard was guarding the captive of the prince when he was commanding a 40,000 person army someplace else.

The counterarguments that I've read just don't add up. Forget why Jon doesn't have the silver hair. Remember, Robert's grandmother was a full blooded Targaryen, and yet he and all his brothers still had dark hair, and I'm pretty sure Steffon did as well given what was said in the book Jon and Ned read about Baratheon hair color dominance. We don't know that the silver hair is a trait in every single Targaryen as far as I know.

And Jon's eyes are described as dark. But so are Darkstar's, described as looking black until you were up close (Arianne, AFFC, USHC 299). I don't think we know for sure whether Darkstar has Targaryen blood or not (silver hair + purple eyes), but this is more an example that given Martin's prose, dark can equal purple.

It's possible GRRM can throw a curveball at everybody and reveal Jon's parentage to be something else, but as of right now the strongest evidence indicates that R+L=J.

[hart]

In the SSM, he implies that Ashara moved around during the war. But she was on the opposite side, being super tight with Elia and all, not to mention her brother being a sworn brother of the Kingsguard and all that. When would he have gotten a random night with the sister of an opposing commander to sleep with her?

Actually, he went to Starfall to deliver Dawn to Ashara Dayne. I recall hearing that she threw herself into the ocean afterwards? I'm not sure why else she would be mentioned, aside from being pure rumour as indicated in the early pages of AGOT.

But you're right. If Ned returned to the North immediately after with Lyanna's body in tow, there would have had to be another much point where she and Ned crossed paths.

And Jon's eyes are described as dark. But so are Darkstar's, described as looking black until you were up close (Arianne, AFFC, USHC 299). I don't think we know for sure whether Darkstar has Targaryen blood or not (silver hair + purple eyes), but this is more an example that given Martin's prose, dark can equal purple.

I hadn't even considered Darkstar as a Targ. Shit.

[Str1fe5]

But you're right. If Ned returned to the North immediately after with Lyanna's body in tow, there would have had to be another much point where she and Ned crossed paths.

I hadn't even considered Darkstar as a Targ. Shit.

Hah. Yeah. I totally missed it the first time I read AFFC too, but I'm at the tail end of my re-read before Dance comes out and I just read that chapter. Silver hair with a black streak, dark purple eyes. At the very least he's got Valyrian blood in him.

And yeah, if Ashara or Wylla were the mother Ned could easily have retrieved Jon when he returned Dawn, but when exactly would he have been able to conceive Jon with either of them? They were on the opposing team for the war. Some heretofore unknown overnight parley? A secret meeting the eve before a battle? Ned probably didn't stay anywhere for more than a couple weeks at most.during the war. I mean Ned siring Jon on either Wylla or Ashara would have been threading a pretty fine needle. Whereas Rhaegar and Lyanna were sequestered together for the better part of the war.

And of course, Lyanna was all bloodied up when Ned finally got to her. If she was raped by Rhaegar, it would necessarily have to have been before he went to King's Landing and fought the battle of the Trident. If the rape was that violent, how would Lyanna have survived that long? Who else would have killed her? How do you catch a fever from having sex, however violent and against her will it was? Doesn't the presence of blood and fever seem more in line with a complicated childbirth rather than an externally violent act?

[Black Wizard]

Jon doesn't have Targaryen eyes.

[iheartseverus]

Hah. Yeah. I totally missed it the first time I read AFFC too, but I'm at the tail end of my re-read before Dance comes out and I just read that chapter. Silver hair with a black streak, dark purple eyes. At the very least he's got Valyrian blood in him.

I believe GRRM has confirmed that the Targs and the Daynes are not related.

[nothatso]

Jon doesn't have Targaryen eyes.

...and?

Neither did Rhaegar's daughter, or a couple other historical Targs.

[Black Wizard]

Where does it say so? I'm attempting to re-read the series before release date, but only just about to finish A Clash of Kings.

[nothatso]

Where does it say so? I'm attempting to re-read the series before release date, but only just about to finish A Clash of Kings.

I guess it doesn't say anything about the eyes specifically, but Martin said Rhaegar's daughter looked "more like a Martell" while Aegon looked "more like a Targaryen"

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Martin could have completely changed the rules of genetics for the fantasy setting, but if he didn't then, well, people inherit traits from both parents, not just one.

[Dragonfish]

Where does it say so? I'm attempting to re-read the series before release date, but only just about to finish A Clash of Kings.

I guess it doesn't say anything about the eyes specifically, but Martin said Rhaegar's daughter looked "more like a Martell" while Aegon looked "more like a Targaryen"

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/A_Number_of_Questions/

Just to add to this, we also have the example of Baelor Breakspear from the Hedge Knight. I don't know what color eyes he supposedly had, but he definitely had the Martell look in other areas. At the very least, he didn't look much a like a typical Targaryen. The same goes for Robert, who's grandmother was a Targaryen. The point being, Targaryen children don't always have the typical Targ look if one of their parents was not a Targ.

[Queenslayer(in the bed)]

Rhaeger is not Jon's father. Aerys is.

once Rhaeger fell in love with Lyanna, Aerys raped her. Since Rhaeger was in love with Lyanna he still wanted to keep her safe.

[Dragonfish]

Rhaeger is not Jon's father. Aerys is.

once Rhaeger fell in love with Lyanna, Aerys raped her. Since Rhaeger was in love with Lyanna he still wanted to keep her safe.

Doesn't fit the timeline. Jon was conceived a few months into the war, by which point Lyanna was nowhere to be found, even in the Red Keep.

[Str1fe5]

Yeah, if all targaryens always had the purple eyes, then Steffon, Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, and all Robert's bastards would as well. The theory has Jon only being half Targaryen, as was Steffon, and all of Elia's children as well. I suppose being quarter Targaryen isn't the exact same thing as half Targaryen, but if the trait was that dominant it wouldn't matter (I don't think, anyway, it's been a long time since I took Biology).

[Wik]

Jon doesn't have Targaryen eyes.

Oh, well in that case lets close the thread down and end the theory. This evidence wasn't pointed out before. If he doesn't have Targ eyes, everything else pales in comparison and the other evidence is pointless. I mean, what child DOESN'T have the same exact eye color of their dad. Thanks for sharing. I guess i'm moving onto H+S=J (Hotpie + Samwell= Jon). Lets talk about what merit and evidence we have with this new theory. Go go!

[The White Wolf]

I've read a lot about this theory since I've joined here, albeit very recently, and the evidence points quite heavily towards R+L=J being true. Though it does seem to be a little too obvious imo, and I don't think GRRM is that easy to figure out.

When was this theory first brought up, 10, or so years ago I assume? Now, I mustn't be the first person to bring this up, but I, despite the evidence, have been thinking toward Jon actually being Ned's son. What brought me to thinking this is the segment where the dire wolves are found in the beginning of aGoT. Jon talks about how there are 5 pups, 1 for each of the Stark children, how they are meant to have them, blah blah blah. Then he finds Ghost. This, after thinking about it in combination with this theory, lead me to believe that he is actually Ned's child. Who his actual mother is though is another thing entirely...

I hope we find more out once ADWD is finally released.

[Dragonfish]

I've read a lot about this theory since I've joined here, albeit very recently, and the evidence points quite heavily towards R+L=J being true. Though it does seem to be a little too obvious imo, and I don't think GRRM is that easy to figure out.

When was this theory first brought up, 10, or so years ago I assume? Now, I mustn't be the first person to bring this up, but I, despite the evidence, have been thinking toward Jon actually being Ned's son. What brought me to thinking this is the segment where the dire wolves are found in the beginning of aGoT. Jon talks about how there are 5 pups, 1 for each of the Stark children, how they are meant to have them, blah blah blah. Then he finds Ghost. This, after thinking about it in combination with this theory, lead me to believe that he is actually a Stark, and Ned's child. Who his actual mother is though is another thing entirely...

Jon isn't a Stark either way, though. Either he's Ned's bastard son, making him a Snow instead of a Stark, or he's Rhaegar's son, making him a Targaryen (legitimate or illegitimate). Now, I suppose you could argue that Jon is a Stark in terms of his actions and beliefs, but that's also true whether his father is Ned or not. Thus, the direwolf isn't meant to indicate Jon's paternity, IMO.

[The White Wolf]

Jon isn't a Stark either way, though. Either he's Ned's bastard son, making him a Snow instead of a Stark, or he's Rhaegar's son, making him a Targaryen (legitimate or illegitimate). Now, I suppose you could argue that Jon is a Stark in terms of his actions and beliefs, but that's also true whether his father is Ned or not. Thus, the direwolf isn't meant to indicate Jon's paternity, IMO.

Oh, didn't notice that I put that he was a full-fledged Stark, oops lol, thanks for pointing that out *proceeds to edit previous post*.

[Dragonfish]

Oh, didn't notice that I put that he was a full-fledged Stark, oops lol, thanks for pointing that out *proceeds to edit previous post*.

Well, my overall point was that the direwolf doesn't indicate that Jon is Ned's son. I think he has a wolf simply because he's a Stark in every way that counts. Sansa wasn't, at least not at the beginning of the series, which is why she lost her wolf.