Is Syrio dead?

[mormont]

And I disagree about the water dancers vs knights thing. I think a bunch of water dancers vs a bunch of knights, the knights would obviously roll over them due to them being specifically suited for brute open field battle. If it's one on one, there's not a reason to think a 'water dancer' couldn't pull a bronn and out maneuver him, then stab him through a joint or the throat. In real life, that armor is going to be heavy as shit, especially if you're wanting to close in on somebody who isn't wearing any. And it's not like it's 'a water dancer' we're talking about. it's Syrio. And Syrio wasn't exactly fighting Gregor Clegane either.

I will agree that having studied martial arts before, I know realistically it's silly to think of one guy taking on 5 of anybody, even if you have a sword. But it's a book, so obviously you don't want to get too realism on it or it'll really bog down the experience. ;/ Besides, I'm sure Musashi did something like that before, I thought that guy supposedly fought a few normally armed guys with just a wooden stick or sword.

That's fine... but understand that you are disagreeing with the facts. I have some practical experience in this area. One on one, the heavily armoured man in real life is going to win. Plate armour is simply not as heavy as people think (including many fantasy writers), and outmaneuvering someone is not that easy when you can't penetrate their armour. You can always run away, true, but that's not the same as winning. ;)

(There's an argument that the Bronn fight actually shows the importance of heavier armour, as much as it does the reverse. After all, Bronn is faster, stronger, younger, has better reach, and is a markedly better swordsman. Eggen would have died much sooner had he not been in heavy plate, as evidenced by the number of hits Bronn scores that would have been fatal to an unarmoured man. It was only his superior armour that kept him in the fight.)

As for Syrio vs Trant, as I say, that's up to the author. But the evidence to date suggests that Syrio did not win, and probably lost.

[csharpminor]

You may have me there, I've done weapon sparring, but I don't know a damn thing about how heavy actual armor may be. I'd probably give the chances to the knight more often than not in real life. I think with the right person it could happen, not consistently though.

And yea, the book could go either way with Syrio and I wouldn't be surprised. It'd be weird for me if he wasn't mentioned again, if nobody either explained his death, or if he didn't just show back up.

[lexxxy52]

Syrio is X is such a common thread

Simply put there is some convenient evidence to suggest that Syrio and Jaqen the faceless man are the same person, however there is nothing close to proving it just yet and until proven otherwise it should be assumed that Syrio is dead.

[Emerson]

I certainly want Syrio to be Jaqen, and if not I definitely want him to be alive. I think there's some slight reason to think he might be Jaqen and some reasons to think not. Neither is proven or all that strong an argument IMO.

I do think that if Syrio is dead and GRRM is as tired of the question as some people claim (I believe it was in SSM), he would have made the scene in Episode 8 less ambiguous. It deliberately was more unclear than the book was.

[Lord Damian]

Seryio is still alive, that is the only explaination for him deliberatly not being seen dead in the book, his head was not on the red keep and even in the HBO show, he is not shown to have died, just another cliffhanger. With so much blood and guts, why not show it? Because he is not dead.

[lexxxy52]

Seryio is still alive, that is the only explaination for him deliberatly not being seen dead in the book, his head was not on the red keep and even in the HBO show, he is not shown to have died, just another cliffhanger. With so much blood and guts, why not show it? Because he is not dead.

We didn't specifically read about his corpse in the books so not sure what your point is, when it comes to the books don't reference what happens in the HBO show.

There are heaps of characters that die off panel in the books so its relatively unimportant a factor. The possibility that Syrio is still alive but until there is any strong evidence to assume otherwise he should be presumed dead.

[Ame]

I thought Syrio was in a no escape death situation before watching the tv series. GRRM has clearly stated that the series has remained true to the book (and it is much closer than LotR) so having more ambiguity to me is proof he has just been on vacation for every book before ADwD.

[lexxxy52]

I thought Syrio was in a no escape death situation before watching the tv series. GRRN has clearly stated that the series has remained true to the book (and it is much closer than LotR) so having more ambiguity to me is proof he has just been on vacation for every book before ADwD.

True to the books like Ros the whore?

[Ame]

True to the books like Ros the whore?

Well I was going based on interviews with GRRM and he did write one of the episodes.

[Gurney Halleck]

I have to assume that these open ended cliffhangers are written (and in this instance filmed) for a reason.

I have always been a believer that Syrio is still out there. Could he have found another way out of the situation? perhaps some sort of distraction/bribery to get past Ser Meryn? Is there anything the Bravosi could offer a Kingsguard as payment for his life.

He lives, i'm sure of it. If i'm proven wrong that's fine too.

[Yarl Snow]

That Syrio's head is not seen on the walls, but the septa's is is easily explained by the fact that it is Sansa's POV, and Sansa never knew Syrio. At least, as far as I recall, she never met him.

Syrio being a Faceless Man is wishful thinking. As a FM could be anyone s/he wanted, it proves only that anyone could be a FM, not Syrio in particular.

As Ned stated, "the man came highly recommended". By whom? Ned is not the sort of man to take such references lightly. A Faceless Man would need to go to some deep cover to achieve such status. And for what reason? To become Arya's teacher? To get close to the hand? No, it is pretty thin, IMO.

What I want to know is who could have recommended Syrio to Ned. It seemed that Ned thought the man's reputation was well deserved, if not impeccable, so it must have been someone Ned trusted. Which rules out LF, Varys, any Lannister, etc. (Just to get started *somewhere* :)) Ser Barristan? One of his bannermen? In Ned's POVs, he seems singularly alone and friendless in King's Landing.

Perhaps he sent for Syrio, from some far away friend? It does seem that Syrio takes the role of mentor and bodyguard to Arya, not just teacher, which implies a sense of friendship somewhere in the mix.

[Duskfire]

Syrio: I never run from combat

Syrio supporters: He ran from combat

Gold Cloaks and KG: We kill everyone we come across, including the old harmless Septa

Syrio Supporters: They threw him in jail despite killing everyone else who did no harm to them at all.

In short, he is dead. There is no real logical reason as to how he could still be alive. Syrio wouldnt have run, and they wouldnt have just left him live either if they did defeat him.

There are alot of characters who have died offscreen and yet we are pretty sure they are dead. He was an awesome character, yet I think because he was well liked, his importance is being vastly overestimated. He was there as a teacher to Arya, much like the Septa was a teacher to Sansa, much like Joer Mormont was a teacher to Jon. That was his role.

Stonesnake was never seen dying either. He is probably Coldhands.

[Yarl Snow]

In short, he is dead. There is no real logical reason as to how he could still be alive. Syrio wouldnt have run, and they wouldnt have just left him live either if they did defeat him.

Actually, it is equally likely that he knocked out Meryn Trant, like he did some of the Lannister guards. Like one of the Lannisters (Cersei?) said afterwards: "Her bloody dancing master interfered." He kept them distracted long enough so that Arya could get away. If he died the next second, they would have been in hot pursuit of her, yet she got away fairly easily.

[Horza]

Equally likely?

How is it equally likely when his blows with the full tourney sword had no effect that he'd render Trant unconscious with 1/3rd of one?

[Yarl Snow]

Equally likely?

How is it equally likely when his blows with the full tourney sword had no effect that he'd render Trant unconscious with 1/3rd of one?

He defeated 4 guards with a wooden sword: He is a superior swordsman. Many of you assume that because he no longer had a wooden sword, he must have died. I would hold that statement equivalent with: He died because he no longer had a wooden spoon. Or a funny hat.

The wooden sword was just a toy for him. He did not stop to pick up a sword from one of the fallen guards, because he did not need to.

He may have said "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!", but he was no fool either. He's the man that kept saying "See with your eyes." Would he have persisted in a hopeless fight, to die to uphold his honorific in style?

He might have died, but I think it is equally likely that he disarmed Meryn Trant, knocked him over, rendered him unconscious, and left.

[csharpminor]

etc.

He might have died, but I think it is equally likely that he disarmed Meryn Trant, knocked him over, rendered him unconscious, and left.

This. The book quite clearly wants a difference between Jeor Mormont, the Septa, and Syrio. Jeor and the Septa are clearly dead, as described in (brutal) detail. Syrio's situation was deliberately left open ended.

[Aplomb]

Syrio: I never run from combat

Syrio supporters: He ran from combat

Gold Cloaks and KG: We kill everyone we come across, including the old harmless Septa

Syrio Supporters: They threw him in jail despite killing everyone else who did no harm to them at all.

In short, he is dead. There is no real logical reason as to how he could still be alive. Syrio wouldnt have run, and they wouldnt have just left him live either if they did defeat him.

I never bought this argument at all as a way of disproving that Syrio = Jaqen, because if that theory is true it means Syrio is not actually Syrio and you shouldn't accept everything "Syrio" says as true. A faceless man pretending to be Syrio might say he would never run because that is something Syrio would say, but the faceless man isn't bound to that. He might run and as soon as he thinks Arya has enough of a head start at escaping. Which is why you don't have to worry about him getting tossed into the cells, either. Trant could have lied and said he killed him or maybe admitted he ran and got lost in the crowd, and Cercei and anyone else really wouldn't have cared enough to follow up. They have bigger problems than hunting down a foreign dancing teacher who interfered with Arya's escape for a few minutes before cowardly running away from Trant, from their perspective. They would be happy to capture and kill him if they found him, but they aren't going to spend much time and effort to do so because he wouldn't be seen as any further threat from an unarmed and obscure foreigner who teaches little girls how to dance. The real issue is, they have to catch Arya, and that is where we see the gold cloaks and others spend their time and effort.

[Yarl Snow]

I never bought this argument at all as a way of disproving that Syrio = Jaqen, because if that theory is true it means Syrio is not actually Syrio and you shouldn't accept everything "Syrio" says as true.

Except that this is a circular argument. Because Syrio is a FM, that proves he is a FM man, and didn't die. We can apply that to any character and make it stick as hard to them. There is no direct evidence supporting that Syrio is a FM. That his accent is similar to Jaqen means nothing, since we know for a fact that Jaqen's personality was false.

The circumstancial evidence that Jaqen was found in the black cells coincides with the disappearance of Syrio is not really valid, as we also find Biter and Rorge there, and they certainly were not part of the Stark entourage.

[Ser Greguh]

Postulating that Syrio is somehow still alive requires one of the following stories to be true:

1) Syrio won the duel with Ser Meryn, in which case, why does Meryn show up so shortly after and appear to be completely unharmed?

2) Syrio decided to run, in which case, why does he wind up in the Black Cells (where Jaqen is pulled from by Yoren)?

3) Syrio lost, surrendered, and Meryn took the time to arrest him and throw him in the black cells, in which case, what rationale would Meryn possibly have for sparing Syrio when the rest of the Stark household staff and retainers were being slaughtered wholesale?

The entire Syrio = Jaqen idea is basically just a perfect storm of wishful thinking combined with the perceived ambiguity of his death. Syrio is a cool character so we want him to have not died, and we didn't actually see him die because, of course, Martin wrote that chapter strictly from the absolutely subjective POV of Arya, and Arya ran.

[Duskfire]

This. The book quite clearly wants a difference between Jeor Mormont, the Septa, and Syrio. Jeor and the Septa are clearly dead, as described in (brutal) detail. Syrio's situation was deliberately left open ended.

Stonesnakes death was delibertely left open ended too, but theres not a crapload of threads stating that he is alive and at large. There are numerous characters like that, and I wonder how deliberately open ended it was left. Was that Martins intention, for us readers to question Syrio's survival time and time again, or did he merely underestimate his fanbase?

I dont know, I must admit everytime I read the series, I become more and more convinced that he is dead, and the only reason alot thinks he is alive is purely because he is so well liked to readers. There is basically zero evidence for his survival.