Is Syrio dead?

[Horza]

He defeated 4 guards with a wooden sword: He is a superior swordsman. Many of you assume that because he no longer had a wooden sword, he must have died. I would hold that statement equivalent with: He died because he no longer had a wooden spoon. Or a funny hat.

The wooden sword was just a toy for him. He did not stop to pick up a sword from one of the fallen guards, because he did not need to.

Right, he kills four Lannister redshirts so he's invincible. Never mind that he then bounces his sword off Trant half a dozen times with no effect, because he poked out some goon's eye with a stick that must mean the loss of his stick is nothing to him. Forget that it's clear from his parries that Trant is making effective strokes that he can't simply evade, master swordsmanship covers all that by... I'm sure you'll tell me.

He may have said "The First Sword of Braavos does not run!", but he was no fool either. He's the man that kept saying "See with your eyes." Would he have persisted in a hopeless fight, to die to uphold his honorific in style?

Well, yes.

He's the First Sword of Braavos, a master swordsman in a culture where noblemen recourse to skewering one another at the tiniest of slights. His title means a great deal to him, it's his life's work and something he's immensely proud of. To say what he says and then scamper off would erase all that.

It's statements like this that make me wonder what [some] proponents of his survival see in Syrio that they'd contend he'd go against his word in this situation. Precisely what makes him a great character in my eyes is his willingness to lay down his life for Arya against the odds. Without that he's just an old guy with some fencing skills.

He might have died, but I think it is equally likely that he disarmed Meryn Trant, knocked him over, rendered him unconscious, and left.

You've yet to explain how he does any of these things, simply asserting that they're 'equally likely' isn't going to do the trick.

[Yarl Snow]

Right, he kills four Lannister redshirts so he's invincible. Never mind that he then bounces his sword off Trant half a dozen times with no effect, because he poked out some goon's eye with a stick that must mean the loss of his stick is nothing to him. Forget that it's clear from his parries that Trant is making effective strokes that he can't simply evade, master swordsmanship covers all that by... I'm sure you'll tell me.

Well, yes.

He's the First Sword of Braavos, a master swordsman in a culture where noblemen recourse to skewering one another at the tiniest of slights. His title means a great deal to him, it's his life's work and something he's immensely proud of. To say what he says and then scamper off would erase all that.

It's statements like this that make me wonder what [some] proponents of his survival see in Syrio that they'd contend he'd go against his word in this situation. Precisely what makes him a great character in my eyes is his willingness to lay down his life for Arya against the odds. Without that he's just an old guy with some fencing skills.

You've yet to explain how he does any of these things, simply asserting that they're 'equally likely' isn't going to do the trick.

Neither is simply asserting that they're not. I do not care for your tone of voice, so I'll just advise you to continue to believe what you wish to believe. And I shall do the same.

[Mansiago]

First of all, I think that Syrio is alive.

After that, I've got many things to say:

- What we can asume is that Syrio fought Trant and we don't know what happened because Arya ran away and it was Arya's POV. And that if he died o was caught, no one said anything about what happened to him after that.

Concerning Jaquen:

- If he lost his battle and Trant got him, maybe Trant sent him to the dark dungeons because he didn't want to be known that he hadn't killed the man. So Syrio (who would be a Faceless Man) changed his appearance to look like Jaquen and then was taken by Yoren with Rorge and Biter.

- If Syrio is Jaquen, Syrio wanted Arya to become a FM so she kept training and learning things how Syrio might have done in the past.

- If Syrio is Jaquen H'gar his name wouldn't be Syrio or Jaquen, because when you are a FM you are 'no one'.

- Syrio could be a FM, but not necessarily has to be Jaquen, he might be just another man from the FM.

-If this might be, he even could have killed Trant (by desarming him or taking a Lannister's sword) and have transformed himself to look like Trant and to stay near the court. IMO this is not what happened, but could be possible.

About he escaping:

- Yes, it's true, he says something like 'The first sword of Braavos never runs', but if he disarmed Trant, he would have already won the fight and wouldn't be running as a coward, so it's possible that he run and escaped.

- As somebody has said, Syrio came well recomended to Ned. Maybe Ned, knowing that he had just a few friends in KL, he hired Syrio not just to teach her, he hired Syrio to protect her and then, Syrio might have run away so he could keep protecting Arya [And if he is Jaquen, he would have done it properly].

About how writes GRRM and what he is inspired in:

- Somebody said that we didn't see the Stonesnakes death, as we didn't see Syrio's suposed death. But there's a difference. Nobody asks himself about what happened to Stonesnakes, but Arya keeps asking herself what happened to Syrio and if he is alive. I think this is done on purpose by GRRM so we keep ourselves thinking the same. If he didn't want us to think what we've been thinking about Syrio, he would have shown us his death and Arya would not be asking herself that kind of stuff.

- GRrM is inspired, among other things, in LOTR, and in LOTR TFOTR we don't see Gandalf death and almost everyone thought that he was alive even though the hard situation he was put in. So this might be the same, I know that Syrio is not important in ASOIAF as Gandalf is in LOTR, but the story looks like the same. And I'm sure that all of you know other books or movies where somebody is suposed to be death but we suspect that he (or she) is not death and finally, is alive.

[Ser Bullitin The Board]

If he has the power to grow an afro for TV, he can grow a metal sword to bust Trant. I'm gonna say he's alive somewhere. He probably bailed out the window to escape.

[NackteElfe]

I'd like to add that Syro might even have run to lure Trant away from Arya.

Also I wouldn't overstate the "A master of Bravoos doesn't run" quote. Many people stick to their principles most of the time. But just a few do it all the time. Just because he's a good fighter it doesn't mean that he's going all Ned on this matter.

Concerning the S=J Theory and how he got into the cells: Probably it was an escape plan. People wouldn't look for him there and probably he knew that people were collected from the cells to sent them to the wall.

On the other hand: If he's dead, he's dead... I'd be ok with that.

[Alex]

Syrio is dead, he sacrificed himself to let Arya run away. It's one of the noblest things anyone ever did in the books. I'd be very disappointed if he'll pop up somewhere in the future, being faceless man or something like that. There's no way Trant would've left him alive after Syrio killed/maimed several Lannister guards. So unless Syrio morphed into Trant or ran away (highly unlikely), he's dead.

[Lord Wyman Manderly]

Syrio is dead.

Why would GRRM want to ruin a perfectly good (almost epic) death? Syrio went out a hero sacrificing himself to save Arya.

It was his sacrifice that made it so epic a death.

If he were to rise from the dead, so to speak, it would totally lessen Syrios value as a character in my eyes.

He is gone.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Syrio is dead.

Why would GRRM want to ruin a perfectly good (almost epic) death? Syrio went out a hero sacrificing himself to save Arya.

It was his sacrifice that made it so epic a death.

If he were to rise from the dead, so to speak, it would totally lessen Syrios value as a character in my eyes.

He is gone.

Agree with this entirely, it's the heroic sacrifice aspect of his death that really makes Syrio stand out as more than just one of many well-developed-but-ultimately-not-all-that-important minor characters. What could he possibly do in later books (if he does live) that would be the equal of that? Any more Syrio would be anticlimatic.

[Ser Greguh]

- GRrM is inspired, among other things, in LOTR, and in LOTR TFOTR we don't see Gandalf death and almost everyone thought that he was alive even though the hard situation he was put in. So this might be the same, I know that Syrio is not important in ASOIAF as Gandalf is in LOTR, but the story looks like the same. And I'm sure that all of you know other books or movies where somebody is suposed to be death but we suspect that he (or she) is not death and finally, is alive.

Though GRRM certainly appreciates and is perhaps inspired to some degree by LOTR, he has also gone out of his way to state specifically that one major flaw he finds in Tolkien's story is that Gandalf should have stayed dead.

[Bahimiron]

He tore off his own arm and used his own bones as a sword with which to beat Trant to death.

He then used an ancient Faceless Man spell to bring Trant back as an empty shell into which he could warg when needed.

Most of what Trant has done has been on autopilot, which is why Trant is willing to smack Sansa around, but whenever Syrio wargs into him (usually whenever one of his other identities, Jaqen, Pate, Stir the Magnar, Hoster Tully, is asleep) he participates in some of the most important scenes of the books. Scenes of such incredible, vital necessity that only the most observant of readers will see the way they spiral out into world-changing events like the flutter of a butterfly's wings.

All of these things are true. Jim Morrison told me.

[Ser Latecomer]

Though I am not a fully convinced supporter of S=J, I must admit the idea intrigues me and that it is at least plausible. The one argument against the theory that I will never understand is that Syrio says that the First Sword of Braavos never runs, and therefore he could not have escaped. To me, this proves nothing. If S=J, then Syrio is a Faceless Man. He is simply playing the character of Syrio Forel. So while Syrio Forel may never have run, nothing says a Faceless Man can't run!

[SirPipeWeed]

Actually, it's not. Quite the reverse. Syrio is absolutely perfect for fighting lightly-armed and armoured opponents like himself: an armoured knight would, in real life, make mincemeat of him. There is a reason that medieval European battlefields did not feature water dancers, but did feature lots and lots of men wearing the heaviest armour they could afford. ;)

But that's real-life, of course: if GRRM decided that Syrio could beat Trant, then he would. There's no indication that he did, though.

Agreed. If you want to know what happens to armor-less warriors who fight armored Knights, watch the first season of Game of Thrones when Jorah fights the Dothraki dude.

[mormont]

Whether or not Syrio survived, S=J is completely implausible. Consider the proposed timeline:

- Syrio is captured and sent to the Black Cells.

- Ned is sent to the Black Cells at around the same time.

- the Red Keep is locked down.

- Yoren turns up at the Black Cells with a piece of paper, signed by Ned, allowing him to empty the Black Cells and take the occupants for the Night's Watch. He is allowed to do so, despite Ned being in the Black Cells himself, and to leave the Red Keep with these prisoners, including a Stark retainer.

Plausible?

Various ways around these awkward facts have been tried: most were ruled out by AFFC, where we meet Rennifer Longwaters. Longwaters is shown to be a man who keeps meticulous records and reports anything irregular. Longwaters' records show that only three men were in the Black Cells, so only one of Syrio and Jaqen can ever have been in the cells. More importantly, Longwaters' dialogue all but confirms that all three were freed before Ned's imprisonment:

"There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made a note of that in a report as well, you may be sure of that."

To me, that puts S=J to rest.

[Dave Zenz]

Do we know what the relationship is between Ned and Syrio? How did he get the Water Dancer to teach his young daughter?

Also, how good is Trant with a blade? While he's no Jamie is he very skillful?

[NackteElfe]

To me, that puts S=J to rest.

If your really want to believe it doesnt. ;)

S could have killed to original J to get out of the City. It is not said that the tree knew each other very well. Or is it?

[HotPiesBastard]

Syrio will pop up somewhere in adwd i believe

[Ser_Piggy]

One telling aspect is that GRRM wrote the TV episode. You CLEARlY hear the sound of a metal sword hitting the ground.

Syrio may not have run, but if he had disarmed him and put Meryn on his arse then at that point he may have left. I think the fact that the TV show made his death even more ambigious (what do we say to death? Not today! Clang goes the sword on the floor out of shot!) almost certainly means he survived.

Is he a faceless man? I don't see why he'd spend so long training Arya and playing that role if he was. Unless there is some sort of Faceless Man prophecy and he thinks Arya fulfills it, or is part of it. Don't forget Syrio was going to go to Winterfell with them.

As for Jaqen, he could've been planted in the black cells AFTER Ned's death. Everyone assumes Ned gave him over to the Night's Watch but we don't see this happen on stage.

[lynxx]

Big Water Dancer fan here. I was very happy not to see a sliced-up Syrio corpse in Ep.8. Evrything was left just as ambiguous as the novel.

....Syrio's training is absolutely perfect for taking on an armoured knight mano-a-mano; so I can see him surviving. ....

Also, remember that Drogo's bloodrider discussed armor vs. speed with Ser Jorah. His father told him that "men in iron dresses" were slow.

It is known.

[Bahimiron]

His father told him that "men in iron dresses" were slow.

That would certainly explain why Jorah gets killed by Qotho!

[Lord Qorgyle]

I have never defended the theory of Syrio = Jaqen, mainly because of the training thing. But then the TV series introduced a new element when Syrio spoke to Arya about the God of Death. (Ep.6 , The Golden Crown)

"There is only one God, and his name is Death."

I re-read the book recently, and didn't find any such reference in the original. But in the series, Syrio says it twice, one during the training and another before fighting Ser Trant. Why would the writers introduce this element, the Many-Faced God, so early, if it didn't have a meaning? And why introduce it through Syrio?

Though a Bravoosi would have likely heard about the Many-Faced God that the Faceless Men worship, I seriously doubt that a non-believer would speak of such a God in those terms. And all sources I consulted indicate that this religion is restricted almost exclusively to Faceless Men. So I had to revise my previous thoughts on the matter: if Syrio believes in the God of Death, he has high odds of being a Faceless Man in disguise. Why else talk about the Many-Faced God to Arya?