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Aegnor

How is this going to work long term?

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Ultimately, if your argument is that not enough happens in aFfC/aDwD, then this is really as much a criticism of the books as it is the series. However well the books are adapted, if you don't rate those books then the series can only do so much.

I'd love to see two seasons for a combined aFfC/aDwD, my only problem is trying to think of some event half/three-quarters of the way through aFfC that would make a good season finale.

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Very off topic, but is there any reason why GRRM wouldn't put in a 5 year gap in a later book of the series? Wrap up the necessary plot elements in ADWD and then make the jump in the next book? Or in the book after that?

I, for one, am expecting that, mainly because Daenarys needs time for her dragons to grow larger and for her to learn how to train them.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the reasons he abandoned the gap still stand - why would the Others do nothing for five years? Why would Dorne do nothing? And the over reliance on flashbacks. Daenerys' dragons are already ride-able, I don't see why they have to be bigger.

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I won't compare ADWD/AFFC to ASOS, and how in one book much more happens than in other, I've seen so strange comparisons in this forum, that I don't think it's worthy for me to say what I think on the issue.

I'm not saying more or less happens, just that large stretches of the books are more similar than many fans realize. The first two thirds of 'Storm', what would hypothetically make up one season, has a similar pacing to 'Feast' & 'Dance', IMO (I'd have to refresh my memory, it's been a couple of years since I last read ASoS, but that seems right to me). The last third of the book is certainly action-packed, more than any other equal-length section of any of the other books, I'd guess.

Where did I say nothing happens to Bran, anyway, it's not what I think. Things happen to Bran. Book 4 and 5 follow Bran Beyond the wall, from the wall to that CoTF liar. But think about it -- here's the issue, I believe that whatever happens to Bran is enough for one season, where you think his travel Beyond the Wall must be stretched over two seasons. And the same with other charactes. Poor Bran is already travelling the whole 3rd book, now you would stretch him travelling through the North and beyond for four seasons (if they make two seasons out of Book 3). At the end they'll add Ros to Bran's travel to make it more interesting, no thanks, I rather have AFFC/ADWD compressed to one season.

I'm not trying to misconstrue your statements, I was just paraphrasing. Your claim seemed to be to me that not enough happens with Bran in book five to cover two seasons, but I think you could make the same claim for Bran for his material from the first three books, that it's not enough to cover three+ seasons. I wouldn't be surprised if TV fans felt after season three that Bran's storyline was going nowhere; I felt that same way after finishing even just the first book. At least with his book five adventures he actually seemed to be getting to a place where I could see a greater importance to his story, so my guess is that TV fans would probably be more interested in where Bran is after whatever season gets the show through the book five material than they would be after the material from the first three books. And I'm not saying that Bran would be travelling for four seasons: he may be travelling for all of season three, and maybe not depending on how they manage the Theon/Winterfell storyline; he may not end up leaving Winterfell until partway through season three. So then you've got half of season three (I'll just round it to half), then season four will be the last third of 'Storm' + the first part of books 4 & 5, so he's travelling for all of season four but has some adventures along the way like meeting Sam & Coldhands. Maybe he gets to the CoTF lair at the end of season four or the early part of season five. Maybe they move some stuff with him from the sixth book forward a little; I dunno, it's hard to say what changes they might make. But anyway, that's 1 1/2 seasons to two seasons travelling, not four. I mean, I don't remember all the details, but doesn't he arrive at his final destination for the fifth book like halfway through?

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As someone else noted, in a way, it's fruitless to have this discussion about TV series, if we disagree on books. Some may think ADWD/AFFC are fine and on level on other books, well I think that the books are seriously flawed, and that HBO needs to adapt them to make them right for TV series, like condense in one season and add Meereen and Ice battle to the end of the season. If you don't see the flaws of ADWD/AFFC no wonder you can't agree about condensing it to one season, and vice versa.

Words are winds, let's wait and see, we'll see it soon enough.

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Words are winds, let's wait and see, we'll see it soon enough.

I don't get this type of sentiment: I understand if you don't think there's a point discussing it, but to get into the conversation then just back out with these type of "discussing it is pointless, let's just wait and see what happens" comments makes no sense to me. Nobody's forcing you into the conversation. And we'll see it soon enough? It's gonna be years before we find out the answers to some of these questions.

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I don't get this type of sentiment: I understand if you don't think there's a point discussing it, but to get into the conversation then just back out with these type of "discussing it is pointless, let's just wait and see what happens" comments makes no sense to me. Nobody's forcing you into the conversation.

I know nobody's forcing me (except you). I just said what I think and wanted to politely bail out, as I don't see us agreeing, and discussing it ad nauseam (where we stand at different positions) doesn't interest me. Neither am I interested in long fights about whose is bigger, I'm a bit too old for it. In my humble opinion, saying "let's see and wait" is a way of saying "we disagree and let's leave it like this", a more polite way than just log off the thread and never reply again.

And we'll see it soon enough? It's gonna be years before we find out the answers to some of these questions.

I dismiss this lament of years and years waiting as any proud GRRM fan would. Being a GRRM fan you should know that years are wind. The answer about this question we'll learn sooner than the answer how did Jon "survived", we are veterans of waiting, and we laugh at those years of waiting other mortals are so afraid of.

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I don't see why you can't stick Dinklage in a barrel.

Without Sean Bean, Emmy and Golden Globe winner Dinklage is the show's frontrunner. He needs to be in every episode with something to do, especially with all he will have done before this point.

How many episodes of Eddard screwing things up in King's Landing could there be? Well, they did a few. I think the way to go is to select the strongest storylines to focus on, and then marginalize the others (I realize that's pretty obvious). For 'Feast' the King's Landing storyline is the strongest, IMO, and it would be very continuous from the adaptations of the first three books, where KL is a central storyline.

The difference is that in GOT most of the cast is in King's Landing with him. You have Ned, Sansa, Arya, Cat for an episode, Robert, Cersei, Jaime, LF, Varys, Pycelle, and Selmy (and Ros) all interacting with each other. In Feast you're down to Cersei, Pycelle and maybe Ros, god help us. The KL storyline basically amounts to we punish Cersei not by hurting her directly but instead by giving her exactly what she wants and having her suck at it. Which is satisfying in its own way, but only in small doses. You can't build a whole season around it.

As a side note to the mods, could we get book spoilers added into the topic for this thread? It's kind of impossible to have a discussion about how the show is going to work in the future without bringing in the books. I doubt there's very many non book readers on the forum at this time anyway.

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Without Sean Bean, Emmy and Golden Globe winner Dinklage is the show's frontrunner. He needs to be in every episode with something to do, especially with all he will have done before this point.

I think this is an odd stance to take for someone who is familiar with the books and the show: this story is as much of an ensemble as you're going to find outside of an Atlman movie. Eddard Stark in the first book is the closest thing the books ever had to a main character, and that was reflected in the first season of the show, but after that there was never a main character. Dinklage certainly seems likely to be one of the most visible characters for the next couple of seasons, but as book readers know that changes after that. And there are other strong characters like Daenarys, Stannis, Jon Snow and Cersei for the show to rest on at that point. I mean, the showrunners may certainly feel that Dinklage has to be the central character and make his storyline very visible during the seasons based on books 4 & 5, but they also might not. It's like watching the first two or three seasons of 'The Wire' and claiming that McNulty has to be active in every episode, but then if you watch season four he only shows up sporadically and the show doesn't miss a beat.

The difference is that in GOT most of the cast is in King's Landing with him. You have Ned, Sansa, Arya, Cat for an episode, Robert, Cersei, Jaime, LF, Varys, Pycelle, and Selmy (and Ros) all interacting with each other. In Feast you're down to Cersei, Pycelle and maybe Ros, god help us. The KL storyline basically amounts to we punish Cersei not by hurting her directly but instead by giving her exactly what she wants and having her suck at it. Which is satisfying in its own way, but only in small doses. You can't build a whole season around it.

I don't really follow the "most of the cast is in King's Landing with [Eddard]" as an argument: all of those characters are side characters at that point, and Cersei has her own side characters to deal with in book 4: The Tyrells, most specifically Margaery, but also Mace & Olenna for an episode (I assume just one) early in the season, and also Ser Loras. Jaime is also present early in the book, and Cersei has a great confrontation with Kevan. Cersei's handpicked confidante, whatever her name was (Tyanna Merryweather?) is another interesting character, and Cersei's dealings with the Sparrows and the results of that are interesting. The whole plot by Cersei to take down Margaery is probably the plot that would really work well on TV, IMO. and Qyburn is also a great character. Anyway, I just disagree about being able to build a season around Cersei's reign: I thought it was a good basis for a book, and was the most interesting story in that book, and I don't see at all how it's a problem for TV. That's the story from 'Feast' that's tailor made for TV.

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He needs to be in every episode with something to do, especially with all he will have done before this point.

You must admit that some of the comments are a bit silly. How long do people think Tyrion spends in a barrel? Based on comments in this thread, i'd have thought it was several chapters!

As Jack Sparrow mentioned, there are a number of other people from S1 with Cersei in aFfC, while its to be expected that a few more will be introduced. Basically, I don't see why you can't spend a lot of time on Cersei. Sure, some people wouldn't like it but people dislike aspects of S1 also. If you didn't like it in aFfC, it wouldn't be as noticeable in the TV series since we'll get aDwD material also at the sametime.

I won't compare ADWD/AFFC to ASOS, and how in one book much more happens than in other.

I do think this is very debatable. But it gets ridiculous when people say that events up to the RW in aSoS are comparable to all the events in aDwD/aFfC. I wouldn't agree with putting all of aSoS into 1 season but at least that would be somewhat consistent with holding a position that all of aFfC/aDwD should be another season.

The main characters (Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon, Dany, Tyrion...) either travel somewhere or are static.

Travel or static. What's option 3?

GRRM did say something about aDwD/aFfC taking 3 seasons but I think it was before he was done with aDwD. I might be wrong though. And I think he was looking at an extreme case. I really don't see it. Somewhere between 1.5 and 2 seasons seems a reasonable good guess right now. But we'll get more data when we see what happens to S3.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the reasons he abandoned the gap still stand - why would the Others do nothing for five years?

Yes. There never will be a 5 year gap. The dragons seem to have grown a lot in aDwD. Not a coincedence. And besides, the dragons can't be massive or it would be too easy for Dany.

I have thought of season finales for 1.5 seasons before (where aSoS/aFfC/aDwD take 3 seasons). I have way too much of time on my hands sometimes...

- Tyrion revealing to us Aegon and falling into the river (I love this scene).

- Cersei burning the Tower of the Hand

- The arrest of Davos

- Roose meet Ramsay (another scene I love)

- Arya goes blind

- Stannis leaving Jon

- Sam and Aemon finding out about Dany (awww)

- Brienne deals with the Mummer men

- Euron becomes king

I'm not really arguing for this but I would say that it isn't that difficult to find a place mid book to break.

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Some people are seriously overstating the vastness of the show. Each season is comprimised of ten one hour episodes, regardless of how vaccuous you feel ASOIAF is, it'll be hardly enough time to contain the "nothingness" of the books.

A series isn't one major event after another ffs, there is a lot of exposition, a lot of dialogue pertinent to the characters.

Sure is ADD generation in here...

AGOT is the shortest book in the series and they hardly could contain it in 10 shows.

I don't even understand what some of you are doing in here, doesn't even seem like you like the books or the shows and can't grasp it further then the climaxes.

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AGOT is the shortest book in the series and they hardly could contain it in 10 shows.

I don't even understand what some of you are doing in here, doesn't even seem like you like the books or the shows and can't grasp it further then the climaxes.

Way to do justice to your username... If people come here to comment they obviously are invested in the series. You seem to have a narrow view on what "liking" the series means. People can speculate about possible improvements and still like a book or show...

As to the point you made about adaptation: yes it's true that got was the shortest book and that 10 episodes was a tight schedule but you can't attribute that to the number of pages alone.

All of the characters had to be established since it was the first part of the series. This takes up a lot of screen time, and a lot of exposition as well. Totally justified, and yet i still heared many non-readers who were impatient for the show to gain momentum (about 5 episodes).

Because of their nature of being sequels, the other seasons need a different set-up. Most main characters are established so it is not strange to expect more action (i'm not talking about epic battles here; robb's marriage to jeyne, for instance, is also an ACT which strongly influences the plot).

I think this is mainly why most people were less enthused about affc and adwd. Part of the 'problem' is that this story has become so huge that it's almost impossible to keep them going at the same pace as got (in which most characters were still relatively connected to each other).

For a book series, this is not a problem. It gives the reader more worlds and developments to explore which think is fascinating. I loved affc because we got introduced to the stuff going on in dorne and the iron islands.

Television is a different medium though. If non-readers were already confused by all the characters and they were already pushing for more plot development after 5 episodes, imagine how they'll feel about the characters they haven't even heard of yet!

To sum up my point, yes they need to trim the story for tv and no that does not mean i dislike the books. Tv and literature are just different beasts and should be treated as such.

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If non-readers were already confused by all the characters and they were already pushing for more plot development after 5 episodes, imagine how they'll feel about the characters they haven't even heard of yet!

Hmm. I'm not sure. While some people might have been unsure about where the series was going after 4/5 episodes, most still kept watching (and the series built up viewers as it went along). So it didn't put them off. You need a good foundation before you hit the climax or it will mean little to the viewer.

So I don't think it would be right to say that a series needs a fast tempo all the time. You can safely get away with slower episodes, as long as there is not a long run of them. A slower pace makes it easier for people to understand who is who because we are not racing onto the next event. And now that people like the show, they may be happier to get more depth. Explore the world a bit. They don't need a big ACT, one after the other, to keep attention.

You can obviously go to either extreme and nobody should want that. To be honest though, I think some of the comments on aFfC/aDwD are too extreme, in that they suggested that both booksshould be dealt with by one season or even less! Going to 3 seasons is probably at the other extreme but I don't think anyone was arguing for that as necessary.

Either way, I think we all accept that there will be some pruning of characters in aFfC and aDwD (in S1 and S2). As long as we get that far. :)

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I don't really follow the "most of the cast is in King's Landing with [Eddard]" as an argument: all of those characters are side characters at that point, and Cersei has her own side characters to deal with in book 4: The Tyrells, most specifically Margaery, but also Mace & Olenna for an episode (I assume just one) early in the season, and also Ser Loras. Jaime is also present early in the book, and Cersei has a great confrontation with Kevan. Cersei's handpicked confidante, whatever her name was (Tyanna Merryweather?) is another interesting character, and Cersei's dealings with the Sparrows and the results of that are interesting. The whole plot by Cersei to take down Margaery is probably the plot that would really work well on TV, IMO. and Qyburn is also a great character. Anyway, I just disagree about being able to build a season around Cersei's reign: I thought it was a good basis for a book, and was the most interesting story in that book, and I don't see at all how it's a problem for TV. That's the story from 'Feast' that's tailor made for TV.

We'll have to disagree about Cersei's story. Much remains to be seen this coming season how big of a role Margaery actually gets on the show. But are you really putting Arya, Sansa and King Robert on the same level as Taena, Kevan and Qyburn? Arya and Sansa are POV characters for seven's sake. I left out Joffrey from my list, but we gain Tommen (and Ser Pounce!) with more of a role.

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You must admit that some of the comments are a bit silly. How long do people think Tyrion spends in a barrel? Based on comments in this thread, i'd have thought it was several chapters!

So you're going to have Tyrion magically teleport across the narrow sea in between seasons, but it's going to take two seasons for Sam to get from the Wall to Oldtown?

The timelines of Feast and Dance merge what about halfway through Dance? So if it were two seasons then the natural stopping point for Tyrion would probably be when the ship is attacked by the slavers. So working backwards:

Ep10: Ship is attacked

Ep 9: Volantis

Ep 8: Captured by Jorah

Ep 7: Stone bridge

Ep 6: Sailing down river getting to know Griff & co

Ep 5: Meet Griff & co

Ep 4: Illyrio

You can go either way I suppose, pad it out to ten or shrink it down to five.

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We'll have to disagree about Cersei's story. Much remains to be seen this coming season how big of a role Margaery actually gets on the show. But are you really putting Arya, Sansa and King Robert on the same level as Taena, Kevan and Qyburn? Arya and Sansa are POV characters for seven's sake. I left out Joffrey from my list, but we gain Tommen (and Ser Pounce!) with more of a role.

I don't know that I'd say I'm putting them on the "same level" (though I might if I thought about it); none of the characters you mention hardly do anything in the first book/season. What does it matter that they are POV characters? More of the first book took place in KL (which might happen if you have three POVs in one place) than any other book took place in any one location, but you didn't have nearly as many characters/stories in other locations going on at the same time taking up space, so there was space for those characters to be POVs in the first book (though I suppose GRRM was setting them up to have their own stories as things progressed, at which point he'd need to have at least one POV in each location). I realize that characters like Arya and Sansa loom pretty large in the series now, but if you just had the first book or first season to look at, they're just fun side characters (except for Sansa, who doesn't become interesting until the second book). And Robert's hardly in the first book. He was in the first season of the show more because they made up scenes for him like hunting, war stories, and reminiscing with Cersei, but I don't give his character that much weight as far as current events went; he was more important because of his role in the rebellion.

So you're going to have Tyrion magically teleport across the narrow sea in between seasons, but it's going to take two seasons for Sam to get from the Wall to Oldtown?

Sam's journey is much longer, since the distance just from the Wall to Oldtown is probably, what, ten to fifteen times as long as the trip across the Narrow Sea, and that's if they went straight down. Instead they criss-cross twice, plus spend a month in Braavos. Besides, it wouldn't necessarily take two seasons, since the end of 'Feast' catches up with 'Dance' about halfway through. If they actually just did the show straight up with the books like that (though I kinda doubt it; I think things will get shifted around) Sam would arrive in Oldtown maybe a third of the way through the next season (assuming the beginning of 'Feast' and 'Dance' started with ep 1 of a season; since 'Storm' might take a season and a half, then it would potentially be closer to the end of the following season that Sam got to Oldtown).

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I don't know that I'd say I'm putting them on the "same level" (though I might if I thought about it); none of the characters you mention hardly do anything in the first book/season. What does it matter that they are POV characters? More of the first book took place in KL (which might happen if you have three POVs in one place) than any other book took place in any one location, but you didn't have nearly as many characters/stories in other locations going on at the same time taking up space, so there was space for those characters to be POVs in the first book (though I suppose GRRM was setting them up to have their own stories as things progressed, at which point he'd need to have at least one POV in each location). I realize that characters like Arya and Sansa loom pretty large in the series now, but if you just had the first book or first season to look at, they're just fun side characters (except for Sansa, who doesn't become interesting until the second book).

That's the thing though, no one is really a main character in the first book besides Ned. You can get away with that because all the ensemble cast is interacting with each other in a few groups. But by Feast/Dance they are spread out all over the place, and so you have to keep adding in more minor characters in order for them to have someone to interact with. It's easy to say you can simplify or remove extraneous minor characters without changing the story, but those characters are there for a reason.

Sam's journey is much longer, since the distance just from the Wall to Oldtown is probably, what, ten to fifteen times as long as the trip across the Narrow Sea, and that's if they went straight down. Instead they criss-cross twice, plus spend a month in Braavos. Besides, it wouldn't necessarily take two seasons, since the end of 'Feast' catches up with 'Dance' about halfway through. If they actually just did the show straight up with the books like that (though I kinda doubt it; I think things will get shifted around) Sam would arrive in Oldtown maybe a third of the way through the next season (assuming the beginning of 'Feast' and 'Dance' started with ep 1 of a season; since 'Storm' might take a season and a half, then it would potentially be closer to the end of the following season that Sam got to Oldtown).

I think it's more like 8-10 times the distance, but let's not quibble over details. If SOS is 1.5 seasons instead of 2 and/or Feast/Dance is 1.5 seasons instead of 2, then we are back to the previously mentioned problem of running out of book material too soon

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So you're going to have Tyrion magically teleport across the narrow sea in between seasons, but it's going to take two seasons for Sam to get from the Wall to Oldtown?

You do know that Tyrion doesn't spend his time travelling across the Narrow Sea in a barrel right? He is in the cabin of a ship. He only goes into a barrel for the short trip from the port in Pentos to Ilyrio's manse?

Knowing that might make your timeline a lot more logical. They could actually begin the first episode after Tyrion kills Tywin with him meeting up with Varys again. Its a flashback scene in the books. So E1 could see Tyrion getting onto a ship, fleeing KL. At the end of E2, he could arrive in Pentos. E3 we could have the infamous barrel incident and Tyrion meeting Illyrio (nice episode climax there also). In E4 we have Tyrion leaving Pentos and their trip to the Royne. And in E5 we have meeting Griff, like you have above. No padding required. :) Cutting it to 5 episodes is still simply ridiculous.

And you can easily draw your subsequent timeline out further if you don't insist that Tyrion has to appear in every episode. He didn't do so in S1 (although he probably will in S2 just because of the importance of his story). I might make further changes also in your outline but i'm just giving an idea.

But by Feast/Dance they are spread out all over the place, and so you have to keep adding in more minor characters in order for them to have someone to interact with.

This is certainly an increasing challenge but in some ways it might not be so bad. Some characters are introduced as more permanent characters (Griff) but others will come and go (e.g. captain on Tyrion's ship crossing the Narrow Sea). Having the latter isn't so bad. Its recurring characters where you really wrack up the expenses. And they might drop more plots to keep down the recurring characters (e.g. some of the Martell stuff or Ironborn stuff). And other recurring characters do keep dieing, so that's a help too. (In all this, we are assuming that the show builds on its popularity, so that HBO is willing to spend money).

Kevan or Pycelle may not be as important as Sansa/Arya but if the show focuses on them then they will become major enough characters. There is a reason why they were introduced in S1 (since they will be needed more down the line). So I don't see any real problem with Cersei's chapters, although they will inevitably cut down numbers.

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Way to do justice to your username...

Why, because I am being a bastard? Because I showed signs of cruelty, did I threaten to betray your trust, have I already established myself as the sort of person who takes pleasure in hunting humans? Seems like you are talking out of your ass so far as that is concerned. Should I assume you have an awful skin condition?

If people come here to comment they obviously are invested in the series. You seem to have a narrow view on what "liking" the series means. People can speculate about possible improvements and still like a book or show...

There is always room for improvement in anything, some just have a tone that would suggest that they could of written the series better themselves and have naught but criticism and pessimism to offer in terms of the later books in the series and the future of the show. It gets tiresome.

As to the point you made about adaptation: yes it's true that got was the shortest book and that 10 episodes was a tight schedule but you can't attribute that to the number of pages alone.

All of the characters had to be established since it was the first part of the series. This takes up a lot of screen time, and a lot of exposition as well. Totally justified, and yet i still heared many non-readers who were impatient for the show to gain momentum (about 5 episodes).

There are many characters that need to be established in basically every book. I do agree that the length of a book isn't indicative of the amount of content it has. That being said I personally feel each book is as filled with content as it is with words and condensing two of the biggest books into a 10 episode season would make a mess of things.

Because of their nature of being sequels, the other seasons need a different set-up. Most main characters are established so it is not strange to expect more action (i'm not talking about epic battles here; robb's marriage to jeyne, for instance, is also an ACT which strongly influences the plot).

I think this is mainly why most people were less enthused about affc and adwd. Part of the 'problem' is that this story has become so huge that it's almost impossible to keep them going at the same pace as got (in which most characters were still relatively connected to each other).

They don't feel like my traditional idea of a sequel as they all basically continue where the latter left off. It is just one epic ongoing story. I personally don't think things like Daenerys's time in Meeren will be as boring as some make it out to be. It isn't just her sitting at court and longing for Daario, there is also a group of assassins internally trying to make her kingdom crumble. It isn't a war but it is violent and interesting. It can be dwelt upon for a couple of episodes without being boring imo.

For a book series, this is not a problem. It gives the reader more worlds and developments to explore which think is fascinating. I loved affc because we got introduced to the stuff going on in dorne and the iron islands.

Television is a different medium though. If non-readers were already confused by all the characters and they were already pushing for more plot development after 5 episodes, imagine how they'll feel about the characters they haven't even heard of yet!

To sum up my point, yes they need to trim the story for tv and no that does not mean i dislike the books. Tv and literature are just different beasts and should be treated as such.

I never disagreed with the fact that adjustments need to be made. I also did not mean to imply that I thought that whomever does want the show to be a scene for scene recreation of the books is not a fan and does not like that books. I just think it unwise to want compress the story so much. People wont be any less confused if everyone is being introduced on the fly and all the major events happen at breakneck speeds. It isn't as if each book is being condensed into a movie, 10 episodes need a bit more in them then just one major event after another without any character and world building.

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I actually really hope they DO wait a few episodes before revealing where Tyrion is, I loved reading Cersei's aFfC chapters whilst also wondering where he actually was. I suppose it's like bleeding a little of the readers chronology into the characters.

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