A Thread for Small Questions X

[Dragonfish]

I found the relationship between Roose & his bastard confusing too. He seems to feel contempt for his bastard son when he finds out he was 'killed', but then seems to change his mind later. I mean, there is no way Roose would know about the Reek bait & switch, it was a snap decision the Bolton Bastard made to save his own life.

So now he respects his son? Or maybe its the point made earlier, its not about love/respect, its about Roose's powerplay for the North.

Maybe Roose will sell out his bastard son when he's done using him. There definitely didn't seem to be much affection coming from dad. Roose strikes me to lack empathy for anyone.

It's also possible that he says he feels contempt for his bastard to obfuscate suspicion toward himself.

[Kadence]

Was it ever revealed who won the joust between Tom Heddle and Uthor Underleaf?

[beautifulsouth0]

Here's a small question, might have been a topic already, but does anyone else feel like the Reeds are either the last of the Children, or at least distantly related? After all, they come from about the same place, are described as being small, are a "hidden" house, and seem to know a lot about the old religion and greenseeing....

Another not so small question....Sttannis has knowledge of King Robert's bastards, probably from Jon Arryn....couldn't he and Mel burn them, starting with Gendry (who im fond of, so that would suck), and then the others... sneaking into Kings Landing might be a bear, but if Davos isn't a wanted man im sure he'd be the right guy to smuggle some bastard children out of KL on the pretext of obtaining new Nights Watch recruits...

[beautifulsouth0]

And another thing, can't Jon refuse stannis' offer to be lord of winterfell cuz that would make him king in the north and therefore make for a sacrificial king? Seems like a pretty good reason for Jon to refuse him....especially if Bran and or Sansa were located by Mel's fire visions. I just wish Stannis and Mel could locate Tommen and Marcylla.....Reek, Victarion and Euron would be a good option, too...lure them to the Wall on the pretext of making a treaty for the Iron Islands to be independant, then slaughter them and let Asha be "lord" if she'd help with the ruse

[Green Tyroshi]

A small question - does anybody know a difference between a freerider and a sellsword in Westeros?

[Brendan Moody]

From GRRM:

Sellswords are mercenaries. They may or may not be mounted, but whether ahorse or afoot they fight for wages. Most tend to be experienced professional soldiers. You don't have a lot of green young sellswords -- some, sure, but not many. It's a profession a man tends to chose after he's tasted a few battles and learned that he's good at fighting.

...

Freeriders are mounted fighters who are not part of a lord's retinue or feudal levy. Some are veterans, sure, but also green and untrained recruits, farm boys on ploughhorses, men dispossessed by the fighting, a very mixed bag. They don't as a rule collect wages. Some fight for plunder, of course. Other to perhaps to impress a lord or a knight , in hopes of being taken permanently into his service. For many it is simply a means to survive. If the war sweeps over your village, your house is burned, and your crops stolen or destroyed, you can hide in the ruins and starve, flee to the nearest city for refuge, take to the woods as an outlaw (the ones who do that are oft called "broken men")... or you can saddle your horse, if you're lucky enough to have one, and join one army or the other. If you do, you're a freerider. Being part of an army at least gives you a better chance of being fed.

...

Obviously, there is some overlap between the two terms. A mounted man who fights for pay could be called either a freerider or a sellsword.

Both terms carry a certain stigma in Westeros. Sellswords are said to have no loyalty, and freeriders no discipline.

Source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Mercenaries/.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

Here's a small question, might have been a topic already, but does anyone else feel like the Reeds are either the last of the Children, or at least distantly related? After all, they come from about the same place, are described as being small, are a "hidden" house, and seem to know a lot about the old religion and greenseeing....

No the Reeds are crannogmen, they know a lot more about the old religion because the Neck has been a terribly isolated location and because they are shunned by other folks they are isolated geographically and socially. That's why they preserved much of their culture and knowledge. And based from the story of The Knight of the Laughing Tree it seems the current head sought out the CotF in the Isle of Faces, so it is unsurprising he and his children should know a lot of their arts.

Another not so small question....Sttannis has knowledge of King Robert's bastards, probably from Jon Arryn....couldn't he and Mel burn them, starting with Gendry (who im fond of, so that would suck), and then the others... sneaking into Kings Landing might be a bear, but if Davos isn't a wanted man im sure he'd be the right guy to smuggle some bastard children out of KL on the pretext of obtaining new Nights Watch recruits...

Edric was more accessible before the King's Men spirited him away. So why bother with the risks of smuggling in and out of KL? And whatever qualms delayed Stannis' agreement to Melisandre's plan to burn Edric would have prevented him from burning any other innocent children.

And another thing, can't Jon refuse stannis' offer to be lord of winterfell cuz that would make him king in the north and therefore make for a sacrificial king? Seems like a pretty good reason for Jon to refuse him....especially if Bran and or Sansa were located by Mel's fire visions. I just wish Stannis and Mel could locate Tommen and Marcylla.....Reek, Victarion and Euron would be a good option, too...lure them to the Wall on the pretext of making a treaty for the Iron Islands to be independant, then slaughter them and let Asha be "lord" if she'd help with the ruse

By accepting Stannis' offer he would be Lord of Winterfell, Lord Paramount of the North, and Warden of the North not King of the North. He is required to recognize no king other than Stannis, like Robert is to Ned. Robb was crowned by his bannermen beacuse they decided that they refuse to bow to the Iron Throne anymore.

[Green Tyroshi]

Source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Mercenaries/.

Thanks Brendan! Clears it up for me :)

[KyleLitke]

And another thing, can't Jon refuse stannis' offer to be lord of winterfell cuz that would make him king in the north and therefore make for a sacrificial king? Seems like a pretty good reason for Jon to refuse him....especially if Bran and or Sansa were located by Mel's fire visions. I just wish Stannis and Mel could locate Tommen and Marcylla.....Reek, Victarion and Euron would be a good option, too...lure them to the Wall on the pretext of making a treaty for the Iron Islands to be independant, then slaughter them and let Asha be "lord" if she'd help with the ruse

He wouldn't be King in the North, though.

That said, it is interesting that by the definition they think Stannis is using (i.e., spiriting away Mance's son because they thought Stannis would burn him), Jon would be the closest thing to kings blood at the Wall, not counting Mance (not sure offhand what his status is). If Stannis is considering Mance, just some guy in charge of the Wildlings, a King that can be burned to awaken the stone dragon, surely Robb's blood would qualify as well, and as far as anyone knows, Jon is his half brother. Or does it not count because Ned wasn't a King and that's the blood they share (again, as far as anyone knows)?

[alpha5099]

I would imagine that, in Stannis's eyes at least, it's not King's Blood if it comes from one of the various pretenders. Renly, Cersei's children, Robb, and the Greyjoys do not have a divine mandate to be kings; they're false monarchs, and using them or their kin to get the necessary sacrificial blood would be acknowledging their legitimacy in a way Stannis would likely never consider.

If I'm correct, that also means that Stannis is acknowledging Mance as a rightful king, but I guess that isn't much of a stretch. It's no skin off his nose who the wildlings choose to bend the knee to.

[Talleyrand]

I would imagine that, in Stannis's eyes at least, it's not King's Blood if it comes from one of the various pretenders. Renly, Cersei's children, Robb, and the Greyjoys do not have a divine mandate to be kings; they're false monarchs, and using them or their kin to get the necessary sacrificial blood would be acknowledging their legitimacy in a way Stannis would likely never consider.

If I'm correct, that also means that Stannis is acknowledging Mance as a rightful king, but I guess that isn't much of a stretch. It's no skin off his nose who the wildlings choose to bend the knee to.

Renly and his kin still have King's Blood, no matter what he did in Stannis' eyes he's the brother to two different Kings

[tozka]

I would imagine that, in Stannis's eyes at least, it's not King's Blood if it comes from one of the various pretenders. Renly, Cersei's children, Robb, and the Greyjoys do not have a divine mandate to be kings; they're false monarchs, and using them or their kin to get the necessary sacrificial blood would be acknowledging their legitimacy in a way Stannis would likely never consider.

If I'm correct, that also means that Stannis is acknowledging Mance as a rightful king, but I guess that isn't much of a stretch. It's no skin off his nose who the wildlings choose to bend the knee to.

If not through Robb's blood, then through Stark's blood. The Starks have been king for thousand of years if stories are to be believed.

[Yarl Snow]

Re-reading AFFC today, I came upon something which seems like it could be a reference to Summerhall.

AFFC, p521, Samwell POV, Maester Aemon is telling Sam he must talk to the archmaesters:

"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy... my brother's dream... Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis... Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it...

"my brother's dream"... I seem to recall there were a particular brother of Egg's who dreamed, but this might refer to Egg. I always found Summerhall to be somewhat inexplicable, since Egg seemed to level-headed to do such a dangerous thing. If he had a dragon dream, this might explain it.

Thoughts?

[Dragonfish]

Re-reading AFFC today, I came upon something which seems like it could be a reference to Summerhall.

AFFC, p521, Samwell POV, Maester Aemon is telling Sam he must talk to the archmaesters:

"my brother's dream"... I seem to recall there were a particular brother of Egg's who dreamed, but this might refer to Egg. I always found Summerhall to be somewhat inexplicable, since Egg seemed to level-headed to do such a dangerous thing. If he had a dragon dream, this might explain it.

Thoughts?

He could be referring to his brother Daeron, who we know had dragon dreams.

[alpha5099]

Daeron the Drunken is Aemon and Aegon V's eldest brother, and he's the one shown in The Hedge Knight to have prophetic dreams. Still, I'm inclined to say that Aemon is probably referring to Egg when he says "my brother's dream." Daeron would have been long dead by the time Egg became king, and its quite possible that at some point during his reign Aegon V started having dragon dreams. These dreams seem to be quite compelling to those who have them, it's possible they led him down the reckless path to Summerhall. Or maybe it wasn't reckless; I don't think we know nearly enough about what happened there to really know what Egg's state of mind was at the time.

It's kind of sad to think that Egg may have eventually succumbed to the Targaryen tendency toward madness, but he wouldn't be the first.

[History of Westeros]

No the Reeds are crannogmen, they know a lot more about the old religion because the Neck has been a terribly isolated location and because they are shunned by other folks they are isolated geographically and socially. That's why they preserved much of their culture and knowledge. And based from the story of The Knight of the Laughing Tree it seems the current head sought out the CotF in the Isle of Faces, so it is unsurprising he and his children should know a lot of their arts.

All that you say is true, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that some CotF bred with some First Men, which could easily be the origin of the Crannogmen. Green eyes and small stature..

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Do you think that LF's plan is for Sansa to inherit the Riverlands too, in addition to the Vale and the North? It is probable he plans on poisoning Sweetrobin/is already doing it. If he can eliminate Edmure and his unborn child, that would make Sansa the last living grandchild of Hoster Tully, as far as anyone knows.

[Galen M]

Do you think that LF's plan is for Sansa to inherit the Riverlands too, in addition to the Vale and the North? It is probable he plans on poisoning Sweetrobin/is already doing it. If he can eliminate Edmure and his unborn child, that would make Sansa the last living grandchild of Hoster Tully, as far as anyone knows.

well, the Iron Throne has annointed him Lord Paramount of the Trident.

[alpha5099]

Do you think that LF's plan is for Sansa to inherit the Riverlands too, in addition to the Vale and the North? It is probable he plans on poisoning Sweetrobin/is already doing it. If he can eliminate Edmure and his unborn child, that would make Sansa the last living grandchild of Hoster Tully, as far as anyone knows.

I'd be surprised if LF wasn't at least considering the possibility of making a play for the Riverlands. His proposed Sansa/Harry alliance already brings together the North and the Vale, it would seem silly to ignore Sansa's fairly strong claim to Riverrun as well.

---

Two questions of my own:

1) I was watching a couple episodes of the series, and a couple lines popped up out at me, both dealing with succession. One is the shaving scene with Renly and Loras; when Loras begins intimating that Renly should try to claim the throne, he scoffs at the idea, stating something along the lines of "I'm fourth in line." The other scene is Sansa and Septa Mordane in the throne room, discussing Sansa and Joffrey's future children. Sansa worries what will happen if she produces only girls, and though the Septa assures her that's highly unlikely, she does concede that if it happens, "Then the throne will pass to Joffrey's younger brother Tommen."

Both of these lines show that, in the TV series at least, women seem to have no claim whatsoever. The order of succession after Robert, apparently, is Joffrey -- Tommen -- Stannis -- Renly.

Am I mistaken, or is it different in the books? I was under the impression that Myrcella has a claim, and it supersedes either Stannis or Renly. The order, as I understood it, was Joffrey -- Tommen -- Myrcella -- Stannis -- Shireen -- Renly. That was certainly the impression I got, particularly from the Dornish chapters of Feast; Myrcella was surprised that they were trying to put her claim before her younger brother's, not that they were stating that she has a claim.

2) Do any of the other houses of Westeros claim Targaryen descent, other than the Baratheons? It seemed like the Targaryens weren't as concerned with intermarriage later in their dynasty; did any other Targaryen daughters end up marrying into other families?

[Brandon the Epithetless]

All that you say is true, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that some CotF bred with some First Men, which could easily be the origin of the Crannogmen. Green eyes and small stature..

Quite true, but that's still just speculation and we haven't seen any crannogmen other than Reeds, so we don't know if it's a racial trait or

just the signature family trait ala Lannister blonde, brunette and long faced Starks, or Targ-like Daynes, tall and dark Baratheons.

Small Question: Do you think the skills Meera claimed the bold crannogman (in KotLT story) possessed was magical in nature or just crannogmen-specific wilderness skills?

he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.

breathe mud - maybe they can hold their breath for a long time or they know how to improvise snorkels?

run on leaves - I think just means he is a sure-footed and quiet tree climber ala Tarzan and Giant of the NW.

talk to trees - good with plants:dunno:

weave words - maybe a story-teller? like some tribes with a highly developed oral tradition of telling stories?

make castles appear and disappear - definitely a reference to the mobile nature of Graywater Watch.

change earth to water and water to earth - this does sound like magic, but it could be he knows how to extract water from soil (like how elephants can get water from dry river beds?) or he knows how to deceive outsiders into the swamp's quicksands because he knows where to step it seems what was previously solid ground is now liquid or he knows how to traverse the marshes - that he can walk in what to the uninitiated seems like water.