mormont Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I seem to recall a line where Hoster mutters something about LF, not by name, though.He mutters something non-specific a couple of times that (in retrospect) is clearly about LF, yes. "Never, unless... unless she was with child, that first time..." surely refers to the time when Cat was pregnant and thought Lysa to be so, too, right? It refers to the occasion in the quote, of course. Which Cat at that point believes to be the 'first time' Lysa even thought she was pregnant, but that's right before she realises what 'Tansy' is all about. Her later thoughts can be quite easily read as a realisation that Lysa had in fact been pregnant prior to that, only for Hoster to abort the baby.As I said, Cat could be wrong, but she clearly believes that Lysa's abortion occured shortly after Cat herself became pregnant.No, I'm afraid it's not at all clear that Cat believes that. All that is clear is that Lysa believed herself pregnant after her wedding to Jon. That doesn't mean that she actually was pregnant by LF at that time.As I said, Cat's realisation that Lysa even had an abortion comes after the recollection of 'that first time'. Nothing in that realisation, or the letter she writes to Lysa afterward, refers specifically to that post-wedding incident. And the reference to Lysa's period coming late is hard to reconcile with the notion that Lysa was several months pregnant with LF's child at the time. It's equally plausible that she mistakenly believed herself pregnant by Jon at the time Cat is remembering, and that's how I've always read it. I agree that the author could have made his intention in that passage clearer, but I don't see it as a continuity issue or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 No, I'm afraid it's not at all clear that Cat believes that. All that is clear is that Lysa believed herself pregnant after her wedding to Jon. That doesn't mean that she actually was pregnant by LF at that time.As I said, Cat's realisation that Lysa even had an abortion comes after the recollection of 'that first time'. Nothing in that realisation, or the letter she writes to Lysa afterward, refers specifically to that post-wedding incident. And the reference to Lysa's period coming late is hard to reconcile with the notion that Lysa was several months pregnant with LF's child at the time. It's equally plausible that she mistakenly believed herself pregnant by Jon at the time Cat is remembering, and that's how I've always read it. I agree that the author could have made his intention in that passage clearer, but I don't see it as a continuity issue or anything.According to the FAQ on this site, Lysa most likely didn't even know she was given an abortificant, but I'm not sure that fits right. I understand what you are saying about Cat's thought process, and I agree it is very confusing. I think earlier this morning I argued that this very timeline I am now arguing could not have happened, so now I don't know what to believe. However, it's entirely possible that Lysa was one month pregnant when she got married, and that the abortion was part of the marriage contract Hoster made, whether Lysa knew or not. They could have even waited another few weeks, and Lysa and Cat would just assume it was a miscarriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 According to the FAQ on this site, Lysa most likely didn't even know she was given an abortificant, but I'm not sure that fits right. I understand what you are saying about Cat's thought process, and I agree it is very confusing. I think earlier this morning I argued that this very timeline I am now arguing could not have happened, so now I don't know what to believe. However, it's entirely possible that Lysa was one month pregnant when she got married, and that the abortion was part of the marriage contract Hoster made, whether Lysa knew or not. They could have even waited another few weeks, and Lysa and Cat would just assume it was a miscarriage.That's possible, except that they don't assume it's a miscarriage. Cat, at least, assumes that Lysa's period is just a bit late, which is somewhat different. It's possible for a very early miscarriage to be mistaken for a late period, of course, but if this was LF's baby, that seems unlikely to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom of Valyria Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 In the part near the end of AFFC when Arya is helping the Waif mix poisons, the Waif talks to her about her past and how she ended up at the temple. Now, we always knew hiring a Faceless Man is expensive, but I never realized just how expensive - I never picked up on my first read-through that she seems to imply the price is 2/3 of your wealth and one of your children. Indeed, her father gave her away to the temple in order to take a hit out on his wife. Crazy. Is that what everyone else got from that part as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 In the part near the end of AFFC when Arya is helping the Waif mix poisons, the Waif talks to her about her past and how she ended up at the temple. Now, we always knew hiring a Faceless Man is expensive, but I never realized just how expensive - I never picked up on my first read-through that she seems to imply the price is 2/3 of your wealth and one of your children. Indeed, her father gave her away to the temple in order to take a hit out on his wife. Crazy. Is that what everyone else got from that part as well?Well, the way I think it works is that it's based on your wealth, your need, and the status of the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastard of Varys Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What do The Others want? It can't just be the complete annihilation of any non-Other beings -- humans, in particular. That would be too ... elementary.The Others must want something in the way that each being on the planet wants something. If this want were satisfied, there would be no reason to go to war against anybody. War is a very costly undertaking, so the benefits from waging it must somehow outweigh the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayer420 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What are the chances of Tyrion becoming LC of the the night watch, I think he will be the 1000th. He keeps talking about taking the black in the first book. (in jest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podrick + Arya = Win Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If Rhaegar wanted the 3rd head of the dragon, then who were the other two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 What do The Others want? I don't know, but it certainly doesn't seem to me that it's a 'small question'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clariana Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Is Dorean a bastard prince, if so from what family?Just reading the Samwell chapter in AFfC where it describes the sea journey from the wall. There is Maester Aemon who we know is a Targaryen, the babe nursed by Gilly, Mance Rider's child, Samwell and this Dorean who is described as a bard... When we first meet him we are told, "He looked like a prince with his blond hair and hazel eyes." So I'm betting he's some form of royal blooded bastard too...Any theories? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Does a legitimized bastard come before younger trueborn heirs in the line of succession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayer420 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 At the very least, I think we can say with a high degree of confidence that Jon was conceived after the war began, which does make your theory implausible.You're welcome.I thought dany was born before the war ended( she was born on dragonstone) that would mean jon was concived 18 months before danny, way before the war started Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If Rhaegar wanted the 3rd head of the dragon, then who were the other two?You mean who was the other one.Aegon was the PtwP, and the first head, presumably his sister was the second head. Or perhaps Rhaegar cast himself in that role.Is Dorean a bastard prince, if so from what family?Just reading the Samwell chapter in AFfC where it describes the sea journey from the wall. There is Maester Aemon who we know is a Targaryen, the babe nursed by Gilly, Mance Rider's child, Samwell and this Dorean who is described as a bard... When we first meet him we are told, "He looked like a prince with his blond hair and hazel eyes." So I'm betting he's some form of royal blooded bastard too...Any theories?You had me wondering about this one. The closest I could remember, there was some girl called Doreah. His name was Dareon. I doubt he was royal. Not every blond person in Westeros is a Targaryen. Does a legitimized bastard come before younger trueborn heirs in the line of succession?I would assume so, otherwise they would not be considered legitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clariana Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 That's true, Landed, but since he is described as looking like a prince and we know that Aemon and babe have been put on the ship because of their supposed royal blood I just wondered whether Jon had actually decided to protect a trio... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 If Rhaegar wanted the 3rd head of the dragon, then who were the other two?He thought the other two would be his children by Elia: Aegon and Rhaenys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 That's true, Landed, but since he is described as looking like a prince and we know that Aemon and babe have been put on the ship because of their supposed royal blood I just wondered whether Jon had actually decided to protect a trio...My name is not "Landed", perhaps you are referring to my title "Landed Knight". My name is Yarl Snow.That's a good point, I never considered that. However, Sam was put on that boat with an overt purpose, like Dareon, and Sam is not of Royal blood. Since Dareon dies in AFFC, though, it is unlikely he had royal blood, as his storyline is finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Does a legitimized bastard come before younger trueborn heirs in the line of succession?This is yet another example of how there aren't fixed rules in succession, I think. Legitimising a bastard makes them effectively trueborn, so you would expect them to enter the line of succession exactly where they would have been if their birth had been true. But I could easily see someone objecting and promoting the claim of, say, a younger trueborn son over a legitimised bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podrick + Arya = Win Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 You mean who was the other one.Aegon was the PtwP, and the first head, presumably his sister was the second head. Or perhaps Rhaegar cast himself in that role.He thought the other two would be his children by Elia: Aegon and Rhaenys.But he could try for a 3rd kid with Elia. What's the point of abducting Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morbiczer Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Just finished my re-read of the series (just in time), and I found something new that I don't understand. It is the last Arya chapter. She just returned to the temple, had the strange conversation with the Kindly Man about Dareon, was given some milk to drink, and went to sleep. Last paragraph of the chapter. That night she dreamed she was a wolf again, but it was different from the other dreams. In this dream she had no pack. She prowled alone, bounding over rooftops and padding silently beside the banks of a canal, stalking shadows through the fog.When she woke the next morning, she was blind. Arya's previous wolf dreams always showed what Nymeria was actually doing, sort of a subconcious warging. That's how Brans warg powers also first manifested. But this must be different, otherwise it would mean Nymeria was in Braavos (canal = Braavos). That wouldn't make any sense. Plus in the last Jaime chapter we hear that a pack of wolves killed two of Ser Addam Marbrand's men, and the pack was led by a huge she-wolf, who can only be Nymeria. Any ideas? Was this discussed before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 But he could try for a 3rd kid with Elia. What's the point of abducting Lyanna?Elia was sickly and it was thought she wouldn't be able to endure another pregnancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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