Open Thread for Those Who Have Finished ASoS [SPOILERS]

[Emily Snow]

This is sort of an all-encompassing thread for discussion of the third book. Assuming that it's okay with the mods (since the title is *very* clear about the spoilers contained herein), we can talk freely about the book without the use of spoiler boxes. Until we've got that okay, though, this is basically a placeholder.

[iheartseverus]

This is sort of an all-encompassing thread for discussion of the third book. Assuming that it's okay with the mods (since the title is *very* clear about the spoilers contained herein), we can talk freely about the book without the use of spoiler boxes. Until we've got that okay, though, this is basically a placeholder.

I have no doubt the mods will be happy with this thread. It saves them from having to monitor so many mid-book threads looking for spoilers.

SO! What's your new perspective on the Queen of Thorns' involvement in Joffrey's death (also known as the Purple Wedding). I'm thinking if I'm an innocent, pretty, high-born girl about to be given in marriage to a socio-monster-king, I'd want Oleanna as my grandma, for sure. But, its no small move on House Tyrell's part, to be sure. One doesn't murder a king, at the same time placing their own girl on the throne, without expecting a tidal wave of repercussions!

[Emily Snow]

I have no doubt the mods will be happy with this thread. It saves them from having to monitor so many mid-book threads looking for spoilers.

SO! What's your new perspective on the Queen of Thorns' involvement in Joffrey's death (also known as the Purple Wedding). I'm thinking if I'm an innocent, pretty, high-born girl about to be given in marriage to a socio-monster-king, I'd want Oleanna as my grandma, for sure. But, its no small move on House Tyrell's part, to be sure. One doesn't murder a king, at the same time placing their own girl on the throne, without expecting a tidal wave of repercussions!

Oh man... where to begin? *deep breath, long sigh* I =just= finished the book (that's why I waited to read the last 40 pages to make the thread - it would be silly to start a thread you couldn't participate in, no?) so I've got a lot running through my head, but there's no doubt in my mind that LF was a major player, even if, in truth, it was the Queen of Thorns who really orchestrated the whole thing. I'm just wondering if she thought through what would happen afterward. (No doubt Margaery has little interest in being wedded to a chubby little dude half her age... when I was 18 or 19, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be married to a fifth grader - even if he was the king. >.<) It serves the QoT, certainly, for Margaery to marry Tommen. She still gets to be the Queen Grandmum and it's unlikely her granddaughter would be beaten, berated or maimed (by the king at least - no telling what Cersei will do now that she's racked with grief and publicly shamed by her daddy). I'm looking forward to AFfC to see what the Martells try to do, and whether or not they have enough sway to force the Lannisters to pull Tommen and place Myrcella on the throne. (I really doubt it, since Tommen's already signing and stamping official documents by the end of the book, but stranger things have happened...)

I'm still really curious about what Littlefinger is up to. When he grabbed Sansa, I had this sneaking suspicion it was really HER he had been interested all along, since Cat was no longer within his reach. Now it only remains to be seen if he's after Winterfell, as Tywin was, or if he truly feels for her - even if his feelings are pervy and misguided.

[iheartseverus]

Funny, its been some years since I read SoS, but I still smile at the scenes of Tommen happily whacking away stamping official documents. Its just such a sweet, little-kid thing to be happy about in the midst of all these deadly and vicious throne games. As well as banning beets!

Petyr = pedo-Petyr to my mind, always has from the first we met him. Even back to his teen-age obsession with Cat, that he never got past, never moved on from.. I always picture him as, you come home from work one day and walk into your bedroom and here's this ..freak, your underwear drawer is open and he's holding panties against his face, sniffing, eyes closed. eeeek! :ack: I don't know any more about him than anybody else does, but that's just been my take from day one. I've always read him as a 'creeper.' He makes the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up, always has. And a dangerous and scary creeper, at that, because he's obviously brilliant and Machievallian (sp?), but a creeper-freak is a creeper-freak is a creeper-freak. I actually have always had trouble reading LF chapters because I have such a strong, instinctive dislike/ fear/horror of him. And kudos to GRRM that he can create a character that, as soon as he appears on stage, my heart sinks and my stomach's in knots.

[Agon Khan]

Oh man... where to begin? *deep breath, long sigh* I =just= finished the book (that's why I waited to read the last 40 pages to make the thread - it would be silly to start a thread you couldn't participate in, no?) so I've got a lot running through my head, but there's no doubt in my mind that LF was a major player, even if, in truth, it was the Queen of Thorns who really orchestrated the whole thing. I'm just wondering if she thought through what would happen afterward. (No doubt Margaery has little interest in being wedded to a chubby little dude half her age... when I was 18 or 19, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be married to a fifth grader - even if he was the king. >.<) It serves the QoT, certainly, for Margaery to marry Tommen. She still gets to be the Queen Grandmum and it's unlikely her granddaughter would be beaten, berated or maimed (by the king at least - no telling what Cersei will do now that she's racked with grief and publicly shamed by her daddy). I'm looking forward to AFfC to see what the Martells try to do, and whether or not they have enough sway to force the Lannisters to pull Tommen and place Myrcella on the throne. (I really doubt it, since Tommen's already signing and stamping official documents by the end of the book, but stranger things have happened...)

I'm still really curious about what Littlefinger is up to. When he grabbed Sansa, I had this sneaking suspicion it was really HER he had been interested all along, since Cat was no longer within his reach. Now it only remains to be seen if he's after Winterfell, as Tywin was, or if he truly feels for her - even if his feelings are pervy and misguided.

Littlefinger's ambition knows no bounds. I am excited to see what he does with this. He truly is brilliant.

Right now the Lannisters think he is theirs, but he's quite clearly not. He is now lord of both the Eyrie and Harrenhall, he clearly has forged some sort of alliance with the elements of Highgarden as well, and now he has possession of the last legitimate heir to Winterfell (Bran has the better claim, but he's "dead."

For those of you who aren't keeping track, that's the North (Sansa), south (Tyrell), East (Eyrie), and west (Lannister), with Harrenhall included as a nice fat bonus. With the stage set for the Tyrell's and Lannister's to be at each other's throats (especially once the Dornes start making trouble,) Littlefinger may be, quietly, the most powerful single individual in Westeros.

[Exmortus]

In my oppinion the fight between Oberyn and the mountain was my favorite part. The quick Dornishman dancing around the Mountain jabbing him with that spear yelling "You raped her, you murdered her, and you Killed her children!" over and over as Gregor hopelessly swung his sword around. I mean I started getting pumped, Gregor pinned to the ground with a spear through the gut, and then my gut wrenched as I heard the prince's skull crack when Gregor got that lucky blow. I stared at the page in wide eyed/ open mouthed disbelief. Great moment.

[Ser My Lady]

I'd have to say one of my favorite parts was when Arya murdered the Tickler. "Is there any gold hidden in the village?" Stab! "Where is Beric Dondarrion?" Stab! Truly awesome.

I also liked how Jaime did a complete 180 in my eyes. While I'll never be able to completely get over the fact that he tried to kill Bran, I couldn't keep loathing him throughout the book. He became very likable. I also liked that he saved Tyrion. It kind of made up for the Bran thing.

[Aegon II]

In my oppinion the fight between Oberyn and the mountain was my favorite part. The quick Dornishman dancing around the Mountain jabbing him with that spear yelling "You raped her, you murdered her, and you Killed her children!" over and over as Gregor hopelessly swung his sword around. I mean I started getting pumped, Gregor pinned to the ground with a spear through the gut, and then my gut wrenched as I heard the prince's skull crack when Gregor got that lucky blow. I stared at the page in wide eyed/ open mouthed disbelief. Great moment.

HELL YEAH. and in the end the Mountain prevails with one critical lapse by the Red Viper. its like the fight of Achilles vs Hector in the film "Troy."

[Aegon II]

So many awesome scenes in this book although some i didnt like too.

Like Joffrey poisoined, he deserves worse than that, like thrown out eyrie's moon gate or left out behind the wall for the wights/Others.

Kind of surprising too how daenyrys thought of her battle tactics, could be instinct i guess, blood of targaryens. Still though i thought Ser Jorah and the old man should be more knowledgeable than her in this subject.

Davos' rise is heartwarming too with all his fighters shortened then he learned how to read.

The coin Jagar gave Arya (Vagar Morgoullis) is quite a letdown, i expected it to be more important than a sea fare.

Can't remember all, book is too long lol.

[Ser Celery]

So many awesome scenes in this book although some i didnt like too.

Like Joffrey poisoined, he deserves worse than that, like thrown out eyrie's moon gate or left out behind the wall for the wights/Others.

Kind of surprising too how daenyrys thought of her battle tactics, could be instinct i guess, blood of targaryens. Still though i thought Ser Jorah and the old man should be more knowledgeable than her in this subject.

Davos' rise is heartwarming too with all his fighters shortened then he learned how to read.

The coin Jagar gave Arya (Vagar Morgoullis) is quite a letdown, i expected it to be more important than a sea fare.

Can't remember all, book is too long lol.

Hm, I think the coin had some more meaning than to be just payment for the passage. More like a symbolic gift of gratitude linked back to the slaves in the mines before the Faceless Men were started, it was only iron after all. It seemed to be the club pass for the temple of him of many faces.

Another question, though, where did Jaquen Hagar hide that coin? No, wait, I don't want to know, hehe.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

Vagar Morgoullis - is also said to Dany by the slave girl she got as a token when she purchses the Unsullied, I believe it means, All men must die ....

[Lady Caek]

I just finished reading this today and I think I have to dub this book "The Book where everyone dies". The hardest part for me to read was the Red Wedding scene. I wasn't expecting it. In fact, I couldn't pick up the book again after that for a little while just to let my nerves settle. I have never come across a scene more disturbing than this one. I think that it will stay with me for a long long time.

I am also starting to like Jaime more and am in anticipation to see what he does next. He is one of those guys you love to hate but now I find myself loving him more with each chapter I read about him. Tomorrow I will be picking up the next book to see where everything goes. I went through this one in about a week I am hoping the next one is just as engrossing as this one is!

[bafleyanne]

I pretty much read the whole last half of this book with my mouth hanging open in disbelief. GRRM sure isn't scared of killing off major characters!

[Ned'sHead]

Just finished tonight - this book was nuts! The last 400 pages were among the best I've ever read. Couple thoughts:

- I love the Hound for some reason. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to, but he's definitely grown on me. He's certainly not as bad a person as he seems. His fight with Arya vs. the Tickler and Polliver was a highlight.

- If anyone is the hero/main character of this story, it must be Jon Snow. Then again, GRRM will probably have Roose Bolton flay him in the intro to the next book.

- Tyrion is a bad little dude. Just when you think he's all wits and cunning, he exacts brutal vengeance. Loved it.

- I didn't really care about Lysa and the moon door, but it was still fun and confirms the lengths to which Littlefinger will go. He's a the most skillfull (and ruthless) player in the game of thrones. It becomes more and more clear that poor Ned never stood a chance.

- Just when I thought all the surprises were finished, Zombie Catelyn rolls up to exact her revenge on the Freys? WTF?!?!

[Lucreel]

I just want to say I'm very, very worried about Arya. I realize she's mostly just been trying to defend herself, and find some justice for others, but so much killing that she's witnessed, and so much killing that she's *done*, at such a young age. She holds so much darkness and hatred in her heart. I just see that twisting her as she grows.

I had hoped she'd be able to get to her mother, and her mother might be able to start healing her heart-wounds, but I don't know what will become of her now. I wonder if she'll end up going off to Braavos and becoming a faceless man. . .

I also thought Nymeria would find her at some point when she was near The Twins. They seemed so close, yet so far. . .

I wonder if Sandor Clegane recovered - I just feel like his story is not done yet.

As for Sansa. GRRM is a brilliant author, but I hold one thing against him. Whenever he portrays a perfect moment of peace and tranquility, sure as the sun rises in the morning, it will be immediately, immediately followed by something horrific. It's a bit too formulaic. In Sansa's case, when she goes out to the Garden/Godswood in the Eyrie, and the snow is falling, and she has a "perfect moment", and then starts building a snow Winterfell. You just know something bad is about to happen. As soon as Petyr kissed her, I instantly knew what the rest of the chapter was going to be - her Aunt going into a fit of jealous rage and trying to throw her out the Moon Door. On the plus side, we now know why Hoster Tully was begging for forgiveness on his deathbed. . .

I have to wonder if Hoster didn't let her marry Petry, not because of ambition, but because he was trying to protect her? Sometimes a parent knows a lot more than the child realizes, and more than the child themself. I wonder if Hoster saw that Petyr loved Cat, but bedded Lysa without loving her at all, and was simply trying to protect her, but she could never see that? I think other's said this too, but I kind of wondered, since the moment we find out that Ser Dontos sold Sansa out to Petyr, if Petyr had decided to make Sansa his child-bride. In the scene in the Eyrie with Lysa, I kind of suspected that once Petry talked Lysa into letting go of Sansa, that Petyr was going to throw her out the door, and blame it on the singer (after all, he knows the singer has been bothering Sansa, so he Petyr would have no love for him). . .

I wonder if Brandon will become powerful enough of a warg to fly one of Dany's dragons? The crow wants to teach him to fly - perhaps bran will be one of Dany's 'riders' - though not in person. Did anybody else notice (and I think this was actually in aCoK, but now I don't remember when this happened), that there was one time, when Jon Snow was having a wolf dream, and Brandon *talked* to Jon by linking to Ghost at the same time? Seems like the Starks have something no one else in Westeros does - RADIOS! In a medieval society, being the only people in the world to have instantaneous telecommunications could be a huge tactical advantage in so many ways. I suspect that's not the last we've seen of that aspect of Bran's ability, but I have no idea how long it'll be until it shows up again. . .

Anybody else expecting that there will someday be a showdown between Melissandre and Thoros. They are both Red Priests (or at least both *claim* to be, though Meli might be a false priest). They just seem so different in their character - Thoros's version of the religion of R'Hllor doesn't seem to have the taint of evil to it that Meli's does. . .

There are so many characters whom I am left wondering what happened to them. I'm glad in the epilogue we finally learned what became of the Greatjon - it wasn't clear in the chapter on the Red Wedding if he had died or not; from the epilogue, it seems like he was put in chains but not killed (although that's still not entirely clear to me). Someone else posted a thread about Rickon - I too wonder what's become of him and the wildling girl. Also, I wonder what became of Lady Maege (and the other person who I now have totally forgotten, but was sent along with her) who were sent as envoy to the Reeds and their Crannogmen. . .

Shae - I was really sorry that Tyrion strangled her. I don't think she deserved that - she was a piece, not a player. She had no choice about her role in his trial; I'm pretty sure she didn't *want* to betray him, and I think she even did care for him, maybe loved him, even. We know what Tywin and Cersei are like - I think Shae played the part she had to or else they would have killed her, or maimed her, or gods know what. I also have had this sneaking suspicion for most of the time that Shae has been in the story, that she is really Tysha, but going by a different name now. I think she might have just been afraid to tell Tyrion the truth. I think, perhaps, Tyrion just strangled his one true love, without knowing, and will come to regret that when the truth comes out, later. . .

I'm glad Ghost came back to Jon, but I'm very puzzled what had happened to him for the weeks he was missing? I suppose he could have just been hunting, but I suspect there's something more there. . .

You know, after reading about Dany for 3 books, I still just find her story arc to be mostly boring. It has had some interesting parts to it, no doubt, but somehow it seems the least compelling character-arc. At least we find out what became of Barristan Selmy. I kind of wondered, after Joffrey dismissed him, if he'd seek out Dany. I think my main beef with the Dany storyline is A) dragons, and B) this whole idea that somehow she's the "rightful queen". For A), I just don't like dragons. They are the biggest cliche of fantasy literature; let's show some creativity instead of writing YET ANOTHER STORY ABOUT DRAGONS (although, admittedly, it's the most intriguing and interesting story about dragon's I've ever read, but still - tired old cliche). As to B), and I guess this is just because GRRM is British, perhaps, I dunno, but it feels like the whole story has been developing that all these false kings in Westeros are ruining the realm and bringing it to ruin, and Dany, the "rightful heir" will swoop in and save the kingdom from the false kings. Perhaps it's going a different direction; GRRM does often surprise, but it just feels like it's going that way.

Oh well, so much to look forward to in the next books, when I have time to read them.

[Lucreel]

Just finished tonight - this book was nuts! The last 400 pages were among the best I've ever read. Couple thoughts:

- I didn't really care about Lysa and the moon door, but it was still fun and confirms the lengths to which Littlefinger will go. He's a the most skillfull (and ruthless) player in the game of thrones. It becomes more and more clear that poor Ned never stood a chance.

I dunno, I sometimes wonder if Varys is the most skillful player in the Game of Thrones. He seems to be playing everyone against everyone else. He is supposed to be the *king's* servant - he shouldn't be doing all these 'favors' for everyone else (although, it does seem to get him a lot of extra information about the people putting their trust in him, but so far he doesn't seem to be particularly working for The Crown).

One thing I have to wonder about Varys - he knows about the two secret passages out of the Red Keep (well, at least he knows about the one under the Hand's Tower; not so sure if he knows the one which Littlefinger knew about, which goes down the cliff-face). So, how was Arya Stark able to escape? Why doesn't Varys have someone watching that tunnel at all times to see if anyone tries to slip in or out. For that mattter, when Arya escaped the keep through the tunnels, why where the Iron gates unlocked? Perhaps Varys actually helped her escape without her knowing about it? But then, how did he know that she knew about the tunnel? She had already escaped through the tunnel once - perhaps he figured out that she had been out it that time?

Actually, the first time Arya escapes out that tunnel, it was when she had been out trying to catch cats; during that trip through the tunnel, she's following two men down the tunnel. I've always wondered who those two me are? I kind of have to think one of them was Varys, which makes me wonder if Varys, this whole time, has been working for some foreign power (one of the free cities, perhaps), working to destabilize Westeros, to make it ripe for some invasion.

[iheartseverus]

I guess this is just because GRRM is British, perhaps, I dunno, but it feels like the whole story has been developing that all these false kings in Westeros are ruining the realm and bringing it to ruin

Actually, GRRM was born and raised in New Jersey and now lives in New Mexico.

[Lucreel]

Actually, GRRM was born and raised in New Jersey and now lives in New Mexico.

Oh. I knew he lived in NM now, but for some reason I thought I read somewhere that he was from Brittain. Guess not, lol. :blushing:

[Mattyp]

I'd have to say one of my favorite parts was when Arya murdered the Tickler. "Is there any gold hidden in the village?" Stab! "Where is Beric Dondarrion?" Stab! Truly awesome.

I also liked how Jaime did a complete 180 in my eyes. While I'll never be able to completely get over the fact that he tried to kill Bran, I couldn't keep loathing him throughout the book. He became very likable. I also liked that he saved Tyrion. It kind of made up for the Bran thing.

I loved that scene with Arya. That paired with the Red Viper (partially) owning the Mountain really made the book for me. In a novel so bleak and depressing it was such a relief to see the 'bad guys' finally getting some justice. I cannot wait to see those scenes on the television show. Just imagining Arya bringing that knife through the Tickler brings a smile to my face :lol:

[Ser_Fiddlesticks]

In regards to Arya and all the killing she's done, I would be slightly amazed if she does not become some sort of shadow assassin or whatever it was Jaquen H'gar was/is. The power and safety she feels being able to whisper the names of the people she wants dead sort of hints at that at least. And she does know how to kill already.