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Emily Snow

Open Thread for Those Who Have Finished ASoS [SPOILERS]

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I finished ASoS a couple of days ago, and after all that has happened (RW etc.), I am still a bit in awe. It was also kind of nice to get the resolution for the two "whodunnits" (Jon Arryn and Bran) introduced in the first book. I guess you can see here that the first three books were orginally planned as one book.

However, I'm still wondering why Littlefinger said the dagger of Bran's assasin was Tyrion's. I can't figure out what possible motive he might have had, since Tyrion was at that time only a small player. I have to admit, it does bug me, because Martin has really done a stellar job in portraying the characters and their motives, desires etc. So for every major action a character has done in the books, I was able to understand why he or she did it. For example, I can follow how weak-minded Lysa was persuaded by Littlefinger (her teenage and never overcome love) to kill her husband (a loveless marriage and a man who wasa lot older than her). So, does anyone else have the same problem or can somebody offer me insight into Littlefinger's thoughts?

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I'm not sure I can give you any insights, but Littlefinger is a very shrewd man. Arguably one of the more powerful players in the realm considering his intellect. Cat's actions towards Tyrion spurred the Lannisters into action in the first book, maybe Littlefinger wanted to provide the spark that started the conflagration, knowing that so much would be there for the taking once the conflagration reached its crescendo (or in its aftermath). He is a schemer and an instigator that is for sure.

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Funny, its been some years since I read SoS, but I still smile at the scenes of Tommen happily whacking away stamping official documents. Its just such a sweet, little-kid thing to be happy about in the midst of all these deadly and vicious throne games. As well as banning beets!

Petyr = pedo-Petyr to my mind, always has from the first we met him. Even back to his teen-age obsession with Cat, that he never got past, never moved on from.. I always picture him as, you come home from work one day and walk into your bedroom and here's this ..freak, your underwear drawer is open and he's holding panties against his face, sniffing, eyes closed. eeeek! :ack: I don't know any more about him than anybody else does, but that's just been my take from day one. I've always read him as a 'creeper.' He makes the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up, always has. And a dangerous and scary creeper, at that, because he's obviously brilliant and Machievallian (sp?), but a creeper-freak is a creeper-freak is a creeper-freak. I actually have always had trouble reading LF chapters because I have such a strong, instinctive dislike/ fear/horror of him. And kudos to GRRM that he can create a character that, as soon as he appears on stage, my heart sinks and my stomach's in knots.

Hahaha, That is great, I can picture Chris Hansen from Dateline's to catch a predator coming out to the garden in the Eyrie, "Petyr, why don't you sitdown, what are ya doing? she's only 13"

as creepy as he is, I was so happy that he tossed Lysa out the moon door, she was even more deranged than Cersei, but just as wicked. I'm sure littlefinger will manage to squirm out of his situation, no matter how unwelcome he may be in the Vale now. Poor Sansa, will terrible things ever stop happening to her?

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I'd have to say one of my favorite parts was when Arya murdered the Tickler. "Is there any gold hidden in the village?" Stab! "Where is Beric Dondarrion?" Stab! Truly awesome.

I also liked how Jaime did a complete 180 in my eyes. While I'll never be able to completely get over the fact that he tried to kill Bran, I couldn't keep loathing him throughout the book. He became very likable. I also liked that he saved Tyrion. It kind of made up for the Bran thing.

I love that Arya has needle back, I wonder what awaits her across the sea, I hope she can stay away from her personal Valar Morghulis, or whatever, especially since she doesnt even know what it translates into.

Think about Jaime, at the end of GOT, he was one of the most hated characters, and now, (mostly by process of elimination) he's a good guy. I just go back to something I heard GRRM say in an interview once, "there are no characters in this book that are all good or all evil" so true, But we found out just how mad, the mad king really was, and Jaime's most treacherous act, Killing him, was also the most noble thing he ever did. But we didn't know that until he was on his way back to king's landing with Brianne.

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I just finished reading this today and I think I have to dub this book "The Book where everyone dies". The hardest part for me to read was the Red Wedding scene. I wasn't expecting it. In fact, I couldn't pick up the book again after that for a little while just to let my nerves settle. I have never come across a scene more disturbing than this one. I think that it will stay with me for a long long time.

I am also starting to like Jaime more and am in anticipation to see what he does next. He is one of those guys you love to hate but now I find myself loving him more with each chapter I read about him. Tomorrow I will be picking up the next book to see where everything goes. I went through this one in about a week I am hoping the next one is just as engrossing as this one is!

I had the same reaction about the red wedding, and as sucky as I felt at the time, I can't wait to see what will happen next.

I can so vividly picture king Rob's body with Grey wind's Head Sewn on, visible by torchlight, with Rob's iron crown, it's such a gruesome thought. those Frey's are going to get what is coming to them, they have to. I can also picture Cat, in the epilogue, looking a lot like heath ledger in the dark knight, except it's her throat that is slit, so she no doubt can not talk anymore, I am thinking we will only hear tales of the actions of the Brave companions from here on out, and the mysterious hooded lady, slaying Freys, and Lannisters in the woods.

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Just finished tonight - this book was nuts! The last 400 pages were among the best I've ever read. Couple thoughts:

- I love the Hound for some reason. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to, but he's definitely grown on me. He's certainly not as bad a person as he seems. His fight with Arya vs. the Tickler and Polliver was a highlight.

- If anyone is the hero/main character of this story, it must be Jon Snow. Then again, GRRM will probably have Roose Bolton flay him in the intro to the next book.

- Tyrion is a bad little dude. Just when you think he's all wits and cunning, he exacts brutal vengeance. Loved it.

- I didn't really care about Lysa and the moon door, but it was still fun and confirms the lengths to which Littlefinger will go. He's a the most skillfull (and ruthless) player in the game of thrones. It becomes more and more clear that poor Ned never stood a chance.

- Just when I thought all the surprises were finished, Zombie Catelyn rolls up to exact her revenge on the Freys? WTF?!?!

Ahh, so here's a good question about Catelyn, was she brought back to life by the red priest Thoros, a la Beric Dondarrion? I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned Zombie. If so, then that is even more awesome. I remember Nymeria pulling her out of the water, thinking it was just her body, and that she was dead, and then the wolves had to take off because they heard the men coming, (must have been the brave companions, and of course Beric would have known that it was Cat.

But when I read the Epi, i just thought that she had survived, and I couldn't believe it.

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I finished the book a couple days ago, and It was really great. I can't wait to find out what happens on the wall, will it go like Stannis planned? who will be Stannis' warden of the North now that Jon snow will apparently be Lord Commander? Will Joer Mormont try to come back home? Find out his Father died, and take the Black? It seems to be the only thing he has left at this point. Jon Snow has his Bastard sword, longclaw, that the old Bear gave him, but maybe Jon will run into Brianne at some point and be given the Oathkeeper, (2/3 of ice) Maybe Brianne will take the black to defend the realm of the wights, that is if she does not find Sansa.

I am assuming that DOD will be a Dany heavy book, with little to do with the wall, maybe she finally makes it to westeros, that story arc is still very good, but I really just want to find out about Jon Snow, Bran, Rickon, and the other northies.

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I'm not sure I can give you any insights, but Littlefinger is a very shrewd man. Arguably one of the more powerful players in the realm considering his intellect. Cat's actions towards Tyrion spurred the Lannisters into action in the first book, maybe Littlefinger wanted to provide the spark that started the conflagration, knowing that so much would be there for the taking once the conflagration reached its crescendo (or in its aftermath). He is a schemer and an instigator that is for sure.

True, after ASoS he does come off as the master player. I'm still not convinced, though, that this is not a bit of a plot hole. He could not have forseen all the events to come. After all, Cat meeting Tyrion at the inn was coincidental. And his story of losing the dagger to Tyrion could also have been easily rebuted by others. For an outcome that unsure, the move seemed too risky for a master player (at least to me). I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, I just hope we might get a Littlefinger POV chapter sometime, I'd like to know what goes on his his mind :)

Ahh, so here's a good question about Catelyn, was she brought back to life by the red priest Thoros, a la Beric Dondarrion?

Yes, I believe so. It was mentioned fairly often that Dondarrion was revived by Thoros several times, so I think Martin wants the readers to think that Catelyn was revived that way.

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I'm confused about the whole 'Lysa killing John Arryn' story.

What the hell did Ser Hugh of the Vale do to get so rich then? And why did the Lannister's plot to kill him? Can anyone clear this up for me?

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I'm confused about the whole 'Lysa killing John Arryn' story.

What the hell did Ser Hugh of the Vale do to get so rich then? And why did the Lannister's plot to kill him? Can anyone clear this up for me?

I am guessing this is something that will be explained in more depth in future books, similar to how we finally learned the history of Renly's ghost (one of the plot holes that bugged me at the end of CoK).

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True, after ASoS he does come off as the master player. I'm still not convinced, though, that this is not a bit of a plot hole. He could not have forseen all the events to come. After all, Cat meeting Tyrion at the inn was coincidental. And his story of losing the dagger to Tyrion could also have been easily rebuted by others. For an outcome that unsure, the move seemed too risky for a master player (at least to me). I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, I just hope we might get a Littlefinger POV chapter sometime, I'd like to know what goes on his his mind :)

I wonder if Littlefinger has reached the zenith of his story. I have a feeling that he may have called in too many chips and been a bit too reckless to rise as high as he has. I also don't think that he will be able to hide Sansa for much longer. Her face would be known to anyone recently in court.

Littlefinger/Sansa's story is something that I am looking forward to, provided that he does not become a creeper.

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I also have been pondering as to why Petyr would say he lost the dagger to Tyrion. Obviously he knew that he lost it to King Robert, and could not openly tell Cat or Eddard that; the repurcussions would have been treason and cost him his life. He also knew that Cat came all the way from Winterfell to inquire about this dagger, and had she/Eddard kept on asking questions, someone would have undoubtedly recognized it and named it his. So he had to place the blame one someone, but why Tyrion?

I agree with one fellow poster that he couldnt have forseen all the events that followed, and maybe he blamed Tyrion just because he was away from Kings Landing,and no possible harm could cause from blaming him. I mean, what were the chances that Lady Stark and Tyrion met at the same inn?

Or maybe he somehow did plan all the forthcoming events, who knows? Seeing how Catelyn is now resurrected, maybe she will meet up with Petyr in the future and demand to know why he lied to her

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Hi been lurking for a while as part of the wave of 'watched it then decided to read the books and couldn't stop crew' and decided to actually post.

Recently finished ASOS and started on AFFC so this whole question over Petyr is pretty fresh in my mind. For me he is the man who is basically responsible for the whole war starting and manipulated everyone beautifully. I'd also say he has totally outflanked Varys at this point.

I'm sure he knew as a member of the council that on Jon Arryn's death Robert would call for Ned and that having ensured he had tied the Lannister's to the death in the letter he got Lysa to send Ned would come. The added long con bonus of this would be that he could marry Lysa and claim the Vale himself.

The dagger was a stroke of luck but having sent the letter and with the information of his spies he then uses it to implicate the Lannisters in the attack on Bran further inflaming tensions between the two families.

He then makes sure Ned finds out about Joffrey as he knows because of his closeness to Robert and his honour he would not sit on it but approach Cersei to protect the children and that she will react with fight not flight. This also neaty overts the blame away from his own door as well.

His overall aim was to start a war between two of the most powerful houses. I personally believe if Ned had agreed with his plan to install himself as protector of the realm he would have sided with him. Possibly to get close to Catelyn, although I'm still not sure whether he loves her or actually hates her for rejecting him. When he didn't he realised that instead he would have to go with the Lannisters instead.

Why do all this? Power I assume, he has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding coming from a lowly family and because Catelyn rejected him in favour of the mighty Starks. He wants to beat them all and reign whether it be as king or as the true power behinf the throne purely so he can have the last laugh. It's nothing more than revenge and self validation for him.

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Hi been lurking for a while as part of the wave of 'watched it then decided to read the books and couldn't stop crew' and decided to actually post.

Recently finished ASOS and started on AFFC so this whole question over Petyr is pretty fresh in my mind. For me he is the man who is basically responsible for the whole war starting and manipulated everyone beautifully. I'd also say he has totally outflanked Varys at this point.

I'm sure he knew as a member of the council that on Jon Arryn's death Robert would call for Ned and that having ensured he had tied the Lannister's to the death in the letter he got Lysa to send Ned would come. The added long con bonus of this would be that he could marry Lysa and claim the Vale himself.

The dagger was a stroke of luck but having sent the letter and with the information of his spies he then uses it to implicate the Lannisters in the attack on Bran further inflaming tensions between the two families.

He then makes sure Ned finds out about Joffrey as he knows because of his closeness to Robert and his honour he would not sit on it but approach Cersei to protect the children and that she will react with fight not flight. This also neaty overts the blame away from his own door as well.

His overall aim was to start a war between two of the most powerful houses. I personally believe if Ned had agreed with his plan to install himself as protector of the realm he would have sided with him. Possibly to get close to Catelyn, although I'm still not sure whether he loves her or actually hates her for rejecting him. When he didn't he realised that instead he would have to go with the Lannisters instead.

Why do all this? Power I assume, he has a massive chip on his shoulder regarding coming from a lowly family and because Catelyn rejected him in favour of the mighty Starks. He wants to beat them all and reign whether it be as king or as the true power behinf the throne purely so he can have the last laugh. It's nothing more than revenge and self validation for him.

littlefinger definitely wants to be king. he is now lord protector of the vale and lord of harenhal and he's kidnapped sansa, meaning he may have aims at marrying her and declaring himself king in the north, just to start.

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I'm another one who had to put the book down for a bit after the Red Wedding. I was having breakfast with my family when I read it and basically started crying there and then at the table. I'd already concluded Robb wasn't going to last much longer but I didn't expect the time, place, or way in which he died. I was so shocked, I don't think I've ever reacted like that to a book before. The whole thing was so much worse because you saw Robb die from Catelyn's point of view and there was nothing she could do. And then when I read that they'd killed Grey Wind and sown his head onto Robb's body...I just felt ill. Very very powerful scene, I think we saw some of GRRM's best writing there.

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I just finished ASoS as well and have to say, this was my favorite of the 3 books so far. It had absolutely everything from shocking twists to awesome battle scenes.

Throughout the last 3 books Martin has done so many things that I couldn't have predicted, which is the main reason I have been absolutely hooked. The only scene I correctly predicted was of the Viper and the Mountain. I felt like the whole time that there was no way the Viper was going to take care of the mountain that easily and just walk away. Nobody else in the history of Westeros thought to keep a distance and tire him out?? He seemed doomed from the beginning. Aside from that, Martin has surprised me at every turn.

What I find most interesting about the story so far is the way my opinion of Jamie has changed. By the end of this 3rd book, I felt genuinely bad for him when he was being honest to Tyrion about Tysha. Of course Tyrion had a right to be pissed and lie to Jamie, but here is an incestuous, child murdering, arrogant character that I actually feel bad for. How does that happen? It took 3 books, but Martin has slowly (and incredibly) turned one of easily the most hatable characters, into one that I now somewhat cheer for.

Finally, the greatest line I have ever read in a book to finish a chapter:

"...the oft repeated jape about his father was just another lie, Lord Tywin Lannister in the end did not shit gold"

Genius!

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One thing that I absolutely love about the books are all of the dreams, visions, and prophecies that foreshadow things to come. Ever since Dany had those visions in the House of the Undying, I had been waiting for Rob to die. However, I thought the king with the head of a wolf was just symbolic of Rob, not that what she saw was actually going to take place. This morning I was looking up something and when Arya was with the outlaws and they were talking to the woman who dreams, she said she dreamed of a woman with red tears that was a fish, and that when her eyes opened she woke from terror.

After reading the epilogue, it's quite clear that the woman is Catelyn, but I'm wondering why she woke with terror when Cat opened her eyes. I think the Catelyn we're going to see after this, assuming that we do, is going to be much different than the one we've grown accustomed to.

Are there any lingering prophecies or visions that we don't have ideas for?

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One thing that I absolutely love about the books are all of the dreams, visions, and prophecies that foreshadow things to come. Ever since Dany had those visions in the House of the Undying, I had been waiting for Rob to die. However, I thought the king with the head of a wolf was just symbolic of Rob, not that what she saw was actually going to take place. This morning I was looking up something and when Arya was with the outlaws and they were talking to the woman who dreams, she said she dreamed of a woman with red tears that was a fish, and that when her eyes opened she woke from terror.

After reading the epilogue, it's quite clear that the woman is Catelyn, but I'm wondering why she woke with terror when Cat opened her eyes. I think the Catelyn we're going to see after this, assuming that we do, is going to be much different than the one we've grown accustomed to.

Are there any lingering prophecies or visions that we don't have ideas for?

She is Zombie Catelyn now, who can't talk. I would guess that she is going to be VERY different. I think she wakes with terror, because she was dead and in a river and then all of a sudden alive again, seems like the most simple explanation.

I also never thought that we would see a literal king with the head of a wolf. Makes me want to go back and reread those chapters and see what else I may have missed...

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Now that Catelyn has returned, can someone confirm whether or not she is going to be a POV character again in AFFC?

Maybe in a spoiler tag incase no one else wants to know

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