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Emily Snow

Open Thread for Those Who Have Finished ASoS [SPOILERS]

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One of my friends is convinced that Robert is not Jon Arryn's son but is Lysa's. What do you all think? I think it's an interesting thought since it seems clear that LF and Lysa did have an affair over the years at KL. The only thing that keeps me from agreeing with her though is her strong belief that "the seed is strong" statement referred to Jon saying that Robert was strong. Is there any compelling reason for it to be LF's?

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"The seed is strong" refers to Robert Baratheon's children retaining his characteristics, it's Jon Arryn's little clue to unravelling Joffrey's legitimacy.

I can't think of much evidence one way or another but I think if Sweetrobin was Lysa's with LF she would have said something about it during her meltdown.

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One of my friends is convinced that Robert is not Jon Arryn's son but is Lysa's. What do you all think? I think it's an interesting thought since it seems clear that LF and Lysa did have an affair over the years at KL. The only thing that keeps me from agreeing with her though is her strong belief that "the seed is strong" statement referred to Jon saying that Robert was strong. Is there any compelling reason for it to be LF's?

Ive kind of wondered about this too but there doesn't seem to be any proof that this is the case. Who knows though knowing GRRM maybe we'll get some revelation about this in the next book.

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"The seed is strong" refers to Robert Baratheon's children retaining his characteristics, it's Jon Arryn's little clue to unravelling Joffrey's legitimacy.

I can't think of much evidence one way or another but I think if Sweetrobin was Lysa's with LF she would have said something about it during her meltdown.

I should have been clearer. Too many people have the same names. She thinks it refers to Robert, as in their son, but he means it refers to Robert Baratheon and his seed, as you've stated.

And I agree, she would have said something about it during her meltdown if he was LF's son.

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I do not think that Robin is LF's son! I think that Lysa always wanted to be with Petyr, but I do not believe that they were ever together sexually while she was married to Jon Arryn. I am sure that LF played with her emotions for years-in that sense you could say that she probably had an 'emotional affair'. I think that Lysa did what she did (poisoning Jon) because her actions were motivated by the desire to eventually be with/be loved by LF...I think it is pretty clear when they are married that they had not had sexual relations since he deflowered her all those years ago!

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Hi, Folks. I finished the book last week and registered here to join in on the discussions.

My first exposure to this series was the tv show. Needless to say, I've been hooked ever since "The things I do for love."

So when the season neared it's end, I purchased the audiobooks and have been listening to them every day during my daily commute.

Out of the first three books, this is easily the best, even though it does have its flaws too. As with parts of AGoT and almost the entirety of ACoK, the pacing is a bit too slow for my tastes.

Martin sure does take his sweet time to get things going but, fortunately, once you get to the Red Wedding, things do start happening in short order.

It's that second half of the book that really shines with all its twists and page turners. Joffreys death was immensely satisfying and Tywin's undignified exit even more so.

Actually, that last Tyrion chapter is probably my favourite chapter of the whole book. Very emotional due to Jaimies revelation about Tysha the chapter follows up with a truly epic payoff.

"Wherever whores go." and "Tywin Lanister did not, in the end, shit gold." are lines, that are gonna stay with me until the day i die.

I'm also fine with the outcome of the duel between Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane. Yes, Oberyn lost the duel, but he achieved his actual goal of getting a public confession out of the Mountain.

And while he did not kill Clegane, he took him out of the game and condemmed him to what seems to be an eternity of horrible suffering.

To me, that is a Win.

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As with parts of AGoT and almost the entirety of ACoK, the pacing is a bit too slow for my tastes.

:unsure: if you thought that you should brace yourself for AFFC and ADWD.

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I dunno. I'm not that far into AffC yet (Arys II), but so far the book seems to have the same slow start its predecessors had. Boring new PoV-characters that I don't care about aren't exactly helpful either.

But that's a topic for the AffC section.

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Hello to the gang! This is my first post. Just finished reading ASOS two days before and here are some of my thoughts about the book...

First and foremost. This COULD BE definitely the peak of the series, even though it had a slow start (for the first 300 or more pages). Not that i'm against slow pacing mind you, sometimes it serves just right (the calm before the storm, it also builds up atmosphere) - there were a couple of boring scenes there still, that we could do without. The second half of the book was exilerating though. So many things happened, the whole power balance has been turned upside down (or just down, for most of the game players), almost nothing is left as it was in the beggining of the book. I liked the book as much as ACOK (Blackwater remains my favourite battle of the series so far), still, ASOS was the most subversive of the lot by far.

Even though i consider ASOS the peak of the series, as far as emotions are concerned, i found the whole reading experience really bleak at points. This was NOT a joyfull, or a relaxed reading! I had the same reaction to the Red Wedding as many other readers. I will talk more about it at one of the RW threads (there are more than one!)... I'll just point out that after reading this particular chapter, i left the book and did not open it for two days, the anger boiling up inside me! (with the Freys, with Bolton, Tywin, but most of all with George RR Martin and his ruthless writing and for the fact that i felt Robb was cheated, not only for the obvious reasons, but also for the fact that we didn't see almost anything of his victories beforehand and for the fact that we never had a POV about him - just a big wolf pawn)...

Instead we keep seeing Bran, who i have to admit is one of the most boring characters of the book so far - to me at least. I like the Reeds though, and i really liked Osha (wonder what happened with her and Rickon). But Bran... i liked him in the series, but in the books i find him more and more boring.

Martin does a much better job with Arya, as far as Stark children are concerned... She remains one of the best characters in the book, although all this constant journeying back and forth and back again, without never reaching her goal (or at least SOMETHING, her wolf for instance!), was starting to get tiresome. I loved it in Clash of Kings, but it was beginning to stretch a bit too far in Storm of Swords. And now she'll board a ship... Let's see then.

The series is about the wars and the drama and the characters, but it is also (or at least, that's what you thought at the beginning) about the Stark family. That's why it could get really frustrating after a point. They are ALL dispersed, and they NEVER get into contact with one another - although they come too close at times! Martin seems to me just toying with them. Who knows, maybe they will make it in the end and see each other again - whoever has survived that is... To be honest, besides Jon and Arya, i don't think i really care about them anymore.

We don't even see Jon's reaction after he has learned about his brother's death! Sansa on the other hand... well, i like Sansa. Perhaps more than i would admit. She's the passive player of the game, who tries to face everything with dignity, still cluthing to some of her young dreams (about knights etc). Still, there HAS to be some kind of anger boiling up inside her! I hope her indifference to her family's deaths is just a show and that, before the end, we will see a big retribution act from her.

Retribution. Now THIS is one of the reasons i want to keep reading. But it has to come from the right persons. I wouldn't care if Daenerys came and "saved the day". And since i have mentioned her, her story in ASOS was exciting to say the least. I like the "exotic flavour" her storyline keeps adding to the series: we get to see other cultures and civilizations etc. Still, i can't really identify with her character. An "amazon" style queen from far away who thinks that the crown is hers by right (why all this lust for power?) and is gathering armies to claim her rights. But she also tries to be just (by freeing the slaves, although as we see not all of them WANT to be freed). I like the way Martin is handling this part. Justice derives from within, not from a "messiah" type of character who would like to be seen as a world saviour. I like Dany, but i can't identity with her - yet. The part where she throws away Jorah was sad and she'll probably regret this.

Jaime. Now THAT'S something unexpected! Who would have thought that one of the least likeable characters from the beginning of the series (although we DID get to see some kind of cool attitude and some kind of honesty even from the start - Jaime was NOT Joffrey even then, nor his father), who would have thought that his character would transform as much by the end of the third book. (well, it was NOT so surprising, condidering that Martin gave him a POV and that we know that Martin dislikes black/white characters, but still, it was interesting to watch it unfold...). Jaime has become one of the coolest characters in the series by now. I couldn't help but think that Martin had to disable him first, by cutting his hand, in order to make him likable (thus confirming his fondness for "bastards, cripples and broken things"), but still.... ok. It was a nice change. Jaime is not his father or his sister's pawn. He is his own man, even beyond his duty as a Lannister. I like this, and - who knows - perhaps i'll be rooting for him in the end.

Tyrion remains the bad-ass awesome character that he is. The finale with Tywin (and this final phrase of the chapter, you know which) was one of the rare moments in the book where i said "YES DAMN IT, YES, TAKE THAT!!". It WAS some kind of retribution for the Red Wedding i guess, although it's not enough (for me). Still, an undeniably great sequence by one of the (if not THE) greatest characters in the book. Martin likes Tyrion and it shows.

The battle between the Mountain and the Red Viper was another of the book highlights, as also the battle between the Hound and Beric Dondarrion by the pit. Martin handles these kind of battles with absolute maestry. Red Viper was a cool character, still, i liked that the Mountain survived. The series needs these kind of brutal type evil characters. It adds to their myth and it will be sweeter when they fall once and for all (well, let's face it, we all want to see a final battle between the Mountain and the Hound). I truly hope Martin doesn't kill the Cleganes yet, from their wounds or someting like that. (although he did that with Drogo, another kick-ass character, so, why wouldn't he do it with them as well...).

Jon's battle scenes at the Wall were nice, although i have to admit that Jon's storyline peak was not a battle of some kind, not even when Ghost came back to him at the end and he was named the new Commander, but waay before, deep in a cave, beside a lake....

There's been too many deaths in the books and too little love. I also tend to think that his whole reaction both to Ygritte dying and to Robb was too cool... Well, we didn't see his reactions. But, well, when important characters die you expect SOME KIND of "mourning" from the part of the surviving characters, who held them dear. Perhpaps the book would get too bleak this way, as if it wasn't already. But i expected something, to say the least.

Lat but not least, the scene between Sansa, Lysa and Littlefinger, and all of Littlefingers exploits and schemes... Wow, now THAT'S a character you should never take lightly of! Although i presume we haven't heard the last of Varys, as far as the "battle of the conspirators" is concerned. :P

I'll take a break before i venture into Feast for Crows... I've read all these comments about its slow pacing and about it being a downhill from Storm of Swords... I'm curious. Perhaps (along with ADWD) it IS the silence before the final storm (that is, the last two books in the series). Perhaps it's just filler stuff on the other hand. We'll see.

Thanks for reading this enormous post!!! :)

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I just finished the book a few days ago and have started AFFC.

Martin is lucky he has such dedicated fans. He's killed off so many key characters that it bogggles the mind that folks haven't given up. So far, I'm 58 pages into AFFC and it's all new characters for the most part. The sad part of that is I'm not interested in meeting new people. I'm sure I'll slog through but I am a bit disappointed.

Then again he had such a large cast that it could do with some wittling down. That being said, why did he have to kill Catelyn and Robb yet leave whiny Edmure alive? The same can be said for the Starks. Arya is a great character and while I like Bran, his storyline was lame in this book. Sansa's the juiciest storyline but the character is annoying. She's so freaking passive it's hard to cheer for her.

I think it has turned out that Littlefinger is the big evil but I have found Martin loves to destroy a perfect world. Just as characters seem to get what they want they lose it all. Then he builds it back up only to tear it down again.

Arya arrives in Rivverun only to have her brother and mother murdered.

Jon gets back to the Wall only to be thrown in prison as a deserter.

Tyrion wins the war only to be accused of murdering his nephew, who he saved via the war.

Sansa arrives at Erye only to have her crazy aunt try and kill her. (Take this girl out of peril, please).

I think the only person who has remained unharmed is Cersei. yeah she lost a husband she didn't love and a son-king, but she's still the Queen isn't she? And now that everyone is dead -- including her father -- she's queen bee in King's Landing again with no opposition.

Now that I've said that, I'm sure some will crop up.

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"The seed is strong" refers to Robert Baratheon's children retaining his characteristics, it's Jon Arryn's little clue to unravelling Joffrey's legitimacy.

I can't think of much evidence one way or another but I think if Sweetrobin was Lysa's with LF she would have said something about it during her meltdown.

I think you have the right of it.

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Pacing issues are something we all feel, we all have our favourite story lines or character POVS that we can't wait to get back to. But trust me even the stuff that seems like it's gonna kill you to dredge through is worth it in the end.

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I just finished the book a few days ago and have started AFFC.

Martin is lucky he has such dedicated fans. He's killed off so many key characters that it bogggles the mind that folks haven't given up. So far, I'm 58 pages into AFFC and it's all new characters for the most part. The sad part of that is I'm not interested in meeting new people. I'm sure I'll slog through but I am a bit disappointed.

My bookmark says that I'm on page 674 of AFFC, but I will admit that I have temporarily skipped most of the new POV chapters. So far, the storylines haven't crossed, so I'm just gonna go back once I'm "done" and read the others. I just don't care about most of the new guys right now, but I know I'll want to be all caught up before starting ADWD.

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I have a really hard time putting these books down. I have experienced emotions stronger than I ever thought I would experience in a book. After the red wedding was really beaten, but my favourite characters were more lucky, which made their small victories even more satisfying. (Jon and Arya being my favourites).

Daenerys' are also chapters I keep spying for 'cause I might just be one of those geeks who love dragons :P, but I also find her story interesting (Taking on the role as queen).

I wish I had more to write but I feel like it'll be much easier once I've finished ADWD and have the same questions / the same amount of information as everyone else.

(First post. Yay! BTW I'm from Denmark so my English might not be so great.)

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I dunno. I'm not that far into AffC yet (Arys II), but so far the book seems to have the same slow start its predecessors had.

yeah, i should've put quotation marks around "brace yourself". the first three books move at the speed of light compared to books 4 and 5. <_<

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By the end of this book, ASoS, has Dany reached all her betrayals that were prophesized? One for gold (Jorah?), one for blood (her unborn son?), and one for love???? It seems like she thinks she has, but I don't see who fits the love betrayal. Any thoughts?

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That prophecy is so damn vague, it could apply to pretty much any event. So, unless GRRM at some point says what the betrayals were, we'll never know for sure.

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Dany assumes that the three prophecies was related to Ser Jorah, but it seemed forced to me. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out she was wrong.

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Formalities: Hi everyone.

So, I kind of hate it when people keep saying "Zombie Catelyn" because she was reanimated like Beric Dondarrion, and no one calls him a zombie (and rightly so). When I think zombies in this story, I think the wights beyond the Wall, which I think is totally appropriate. I guess it's her gory injuries that give the monstrous vision of her, especially the cut throat and inability to speak. But hey, Beric's missing half his head!

To whomever mentioned they didn't remember Petyr doing anything pedo-creepy earlier, there was some stuff in GoT, particularly at the Hand's Tourney and sometime after (I think), when Petyr touched Sansa's face/hair, made some comments, and basically left everyone feeling... icky.

I'm not too bothered by Arya's wandering (aside from never seeming to reach her goal... but then, who is ASOIAF ever does?) because I see it as the preparation of her character. It's like Valyrian steel, being folded and beaten over and over, making her stronger and sharper. She was always the warrior and this has been necessary. I love how she just rolls with it, adapts (even right down to a new persona each time), learns, and applies what she has already picked up. And plus, I like how she kind of retains her badass kid attitude and reactions throughout, like when the one kid says something like, "Oh, you can't do that. I forgot you're a girl," and she shoots back with, "Oh, I forgot you're stupid!" It's so childish, but so awesome at the same time.

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It was interesting that, on the night of Lysa and Littlefingers wedding, listening to Lysa screaming (YUCK!), Sansa was thinking of her own wedding night and then of the Hound, and later dreamed of him getting into her bed. Is this a sign that she does have feelings for him and that something might happen there in the future

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