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Emily Snow

Open Thread for Those Who Have Finished ASoS [SPOILERS]

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It was interesting that, on the night of Lysa and Littlefingers wedding, listening to Lysa screaming (YUCK!), Sansa was thinking of her own wedding night and then of the Hound, and later dreamed of him getting into her bed. Is this a sign that she does have feelings for him

Kinda, yes.

and that something might happen there in the future

Some people think so.

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Littlefinger is NOT a person I expected to take such a role. Hopefully Sansa can get away from him quickly because he obviously doesnt have good intentions for her. I always thought he was kinda creepy concerning Sansa. I wasn't too heartbroken about what he did to Lysa Arryn though. I knew the Vale would become more relevant, it had to be eventually, but you know how GRRM likes to take his time getting around to things. So far the only deaths I have been happy to see ARE Lysa Arrryn and Tywin Lannister. Hopefully something more interesting happens with Sansa now that she is away from Kings Landing.

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I gave myself a really weird Christmas present by finishing A Storm of Swords. This has possibly been the most exciting and disturbing book I have ever read in my life. Never had I wept before for a character in a book. The Red Wedding scene was seriously horrifying and I had to reread page 133 (the UK Edition called Blood and Gold) several times because I couldn’t believe what was happening. I knew that something bad would happen to Robb (because of the leaches and a stupid spoiler I saw while researching shadowbinding) but I didn’t think it would be that grim. I thought that he would be heroically slain in battle. And grey wind’s tragic end…

I have already posted my thoughts about Jon Snow in another topic (Jon’s decision) so I will move to some other characters.

Gendry – he has been travelling with Arya for 2 books now, however I feel that his role has been very small. He is supposed to be the same age as Jon and Robb, yet he seems to be not as brave or useful in battle. I also think there are some hints for possible romance between them, but it’s too weird because Arya is so young. I was annoyed that he left her to stay with Lord Beric, that he’d rather be a blacksmith than go on an adventure with Arya. They made such a big deal that he is Robert’s bastard, Cercei had him hunted, yet nothing much has happened. Maybe he will have a bigger role in the other books..

Brienne – I still don’t feel much about her character. Ever since Jaime sent her away with the sword Oathkeeper, I see her as a mean for that sword to get to Jon Snow. After all, it is made by the melted Valaryan steel from Ice and it is only fair that Jon will have it. Keeping the oath is so important for him, it just makes sense that he will have the sword with that name.

Daenerys – I don’t understand how people can be bored with her chapters. It is so interesting to read about the lands beyond Westeros, we learn about so much lore and history. Through her we get to see how amazing Rhaegar Targaryan really was. Also, she is becoming an impressive strategist when conquering cities. Maybe she got a part of Khal Drogo when she entered his fire, or maybe that is just a part of her Dragon blood. And how awesome was it that Ser Barristan went to her of all kings!!!

Sansa – I fear that Littlefinger will try to marry her and thus get the North as well. What I don’t get is how that will happen if she is still married to Tyrion.

Bran – I like the mystique in his story. It is developing very slowly and I think that we will be surprised with an incredible ending. I secretly hope when he finds the 3 eyed crow, his legs till be cured. If people can be brought back from the dead, why not fix cripples?

Arya – when Yoren took her in book 2, I was really annoyed with her escaping and then being captured all the time. But now, after 2 books of travel, I think that her being held by several captors is what has kept her alive throughout the journey. We saw what happens when she is alone in the woods. Her captors have served as protectors because, even in the Westeros world, a 10 year-old boy or girl cannot explain travelling alone.

Ygritte – I never liked her and was happy when she died.

Catelyn - why all the hate? All she is doing is trying to save her children and the North. She has to stay with Robb, because he needs her councel. She can't help any of the other kids so there is no point of her returning to Winterfell just to be motherly to her younger sons. With her there, Bran would not have left on his adventure. Let's not forget that this story is not a family values drama, but a fantasy adventure. And her releasing Jaime will have a huge impact in the comming books, I hope. Obviously he was not such an important hostage because Lord Tywin had been planning the Red Wedding and the attacks all along.

I have plenty of other thoughts but will keep them for later. I am trying to convince myself to start reading A Feast for Crows but I am not sure how I will handle so many pages without my favorite characters...

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dark sister -- I realise that you might have read most of the books, but this is for people who have just finished ASoS... There are *so many spoilers* in that, mainly because I have no idea WTF you're on about. Could you please take care in marking them? Thanks.

IceVyper -- I had to reread that part over and over again as well! Hah. :(

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[mod] To be clear about this: this is a 'still-reading' forum. If I see a thread that says 'for those who have finished ASOS', even with a spoiler warning, at most I would expect it to contain spoilers for the whole of ASOS. Not spoilers for the whole of AFFC and ADWD. Discussions that contain spoilers for the whole series don't belong in the 'still-reading' forum - there's a whole other forum for those. [/mod]

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In my mind, i've always associated Littlefinger with Varys -- i think the juxtaposition of the two characters is particularly interesting (it's something that's made clearer in the TV series, i'd say). They are very similar in that they both appear to be MAJOR players; incredibly cunning puppetmasters who succeed in manipulating events/people and playing them off against each other due to some ambiguous motive.

However, the difference between the characters lie in just that -- their motives. Littlefinger is clearly VERY ambitious, and i agree with one of the above posters who theorised that his ultimate goal is to sit upon the Iron Throne (apologies if i'm stating the obvious, since he does make specific mention of the "game of thrones" and it is also affirmed in the TV series: "they cannot bow without heads" etcetera), though i believe that it is more complex than simply a seat of power. I think his motives can also be traced to his past and how he was treated -- still, i'm unsure.

Varys, on the other hand, claims he serves "the realm". While i make a point not to trust anything Varys/Littlefinger says, i have faith in that claim. Varys is one of my favourite characters -- while he isn't as ruthless and unpredictable as Littlefinger seems to be, i believe he is one of the genuine good guys (even though in my mind he looks like a bald version of John Wayne Gacy and every bit as creepy/paedophilic), as strange as that seems (which generally in GRRM's world means that he will get fucked over somehow... not sure cos i've only just finished reading ASOS). Odd, because i gravitate more towards the Littlefinger-type. I think Littlefinger is also harder to empathise with -- his motives are never clear, his actions seemingly erratic (though of course they are all carefully planned) and he hides any weaknesses quite well which almost dehumanises him ... whereas Varys is a very layered human being (his past is touched on in ACOK, i'm fairly sure, something about his castration something something i forget) NOTE, i'm not saying that Littlefinger isn't similarly layered/complex, i'm simply saying that his weaknesses are hidden well, making him much more formidable as a player.

On that note .... it can be said that Littlefinger has a weak spot for Catelyn Stark. I've always been quite wary of that -- i've read some posts where his love for Cat is romanticised/idealised somewhat by readers and i'm hesitant to make any comments on it since i am very unsure especially with the recent scenes in the Vale. I really doubt that Littlefinger's supposed "love" for Cat is all that it seems. Any theories on that?

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On that note .... it can be said that Littlefinger has a weak spot for Catelyn Stark. I've always been quite wary of that -- i've read some posts where his love for Cat is romanticised/idealised somewhat by readers and i'm hesitant to make any comments on it since i am very unsure especially with the recent scenes in the Vale. I really doubt that Littlefinger's supposed "love" for Cat is all that it seems. Any theories on that?

I think, from what I've read, at least, that you're right. But not in the way you think!

Littlefinger seems to be quite infatuated with Cat, yet. But Cat does not return that-- at all. It's not something 'unheard' of. There are such things as one-sided loves. Cat probably thought it was harmless and childish fun, the way she acted around Petyr. But Petyr thought she was actually throwing hints and moves. Or whatever.

Anyway, as they say, people always want something even more when it's desired by something or in this case, someone else. Cat was probably that, and more, to Petyr.

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Hey, friends! My first post here! After reading ASoS and find nobody to discuss, I came to westeros.org and find here brilliant posts about it.

First of all, I have to say that my first contact to GRRM books was through HBO series (shame on me...). As I live in Brazil, it came a bit later then US and Europe, what I want to say with all this is I read the three books from 15/09 to 01/01/12... I mean... I travelled to Westeros!!! :D My wife gave me GoT and ACOK at Valetines Day (see... wife and girlfriend!!!) and... well... she said it was the last book she would ever give me...

Fortunatelly, AFFC will be released here next month (already pre-ordered), so I can come back to my marriage or his brother will visit her bed... oh wait! This real life... she is not Cersei! Forget it...

To the book:

As I was reading almost everyday, no need to say that I died with Catelyn at Red Wedding. Catelyn in my opinion was the most dramatic weitgh: widow, married to another guy, away from kids against her will (yes, I know some wont agree), watching the fall of her two houses... well, and making stupid thing at freetime. She was right once: when said Ned to refuse to be the Hand. Then, all her decisions messed up the realm and, manipulated, gave LF the cards he needed to play his game.

I dont think LF is an architect, I fell he acts faster than everybody else, maybe because he has nothing to lose. Some depends on him, others depends on whatever he does and he keeps climbing. He planned Arryn's murder, knowing that Ned would be called to be the Hand, he caused a reaction from Cat sending the knife to Winterfel (I mean, even if James had not thrown Bran down, one of the boys would be assassinated by LF), then he sewed another plan to throw Ned against Lannisters. After that, we all know what happend at Baelor and at Vale.

Something we must keep in mind: King Robert's Conseil. We dont know yet what kind of relation Arryn had with LF. We dont know what he knew, perhaps they shared informations about Cersei's kids. This could be enough to LF plans his strategy, from the letter to Cat 'till Joffrey's murder (looking foward to an alliance with Highgardens and to keep Dorne away). Varys, in my view, really works for the Realm, as he said. What we dont know yet is who-the-hell-is-the-realm. I bet on Targaryens. I bet he was from Astarpor. Jorah wasnt betraying Dany, but actually protecting her. Varys crashing Westeros, Ilyrio taking care of Dany and Viserys and Jorah protecting them... all pieces of the same side. What bring me to Selmy, the one who will mess it up. We know what happend to Tywin: another player from the Conseil, dead by James honor (!!!). And Pycelle was Tywin's, as we can sugest.

Players:

LF: wants to be a King.

Varys: wants to hold his position. More than any eunuch could ever wish. He can hold it bringing the last Targaryen back.

Tywin: wished to rule through his family.

Ned: wished to honor Baratheon's realm and to protect the North.

Renly and Stannis: wanted/wants to take back what they have right.

I think this guys are playing the Game of Thrones. No one else, up to now.

We cant forget that all is about "A Song of Ice and Fire". We have to see who is who. R'hllor vs Coldhands? I would say there are two story lines, one about the realm and the game of thrones and another about Ice and Fire. Nobody can do nothing about it... (here I find Bran and Thoros... could Bran become a powerful warrior through Hodor's mind?)

I expect to see Tyrion, James, Cat, Jon, Arya and Cersei taking decisions "out of the game" that will mess everything, seems that they are not pieces anymore. They are all free one way or another...

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I dont think LF is an architect, I fell he acts faster than everybody else, maybe because he has nothing to lose. Some depends on him, others depends on whatever he does and he keeps climbing. He planned Arryn's murder, knowing that Ned would be called to be the Hand, he caused a reaction from Cat sending the knife to Winterfel (I mean, even if James had not thrown Bran down, one of the boys would be assassinated by LF), then he sewed another plan to throw Ned against Lannisters. After that, we all know what happend at Baelor and at Vale.

Something we must keep in mind: King Robert's Conseil. We dont know yet what kind of relation Arryn had with LF. We dont know what he knew, perhaps they shared informations about Cersei's kids. This could be enough to LF plans his strategy, from the letter to Cat 'till Joffrey's murder (looking foward to an alliance with Highgardens and to keep Dorne away). Varys, in my view, really works for the Realm, as he said. What we dont know yet is who-the-hell-is-the-realm. I bet on Targaryens. I bet he was from Astarpor. Jorah wasnt betraying Dany, but actually protecting her. Varys crashing Westeros, Ilyrio taking care of Dany and Viserys and Jorah protecting them... all pieces of the same side. What bring me to Selmy, the one who will mess it up. We know what happend to Tywin: another player from the Conseil, dead by James honor (!!!). And Pycelle was Tywin's, as we can sugest.

I don't know... I finished the book completely mesmerized by LF's wits! I mean, he's now Lord of Harrenhal, Eyre (in the name of Robert), Warden of the East and I'm pretty sure he'll be wanting to marry Sansa and become Lord of Winterfell as well! That was one of the most exciting chapters of all!

For me the discovery of him having told Lysa to murder her husband was a major plot twist! This story was already in the past for me!

I like your take on Jorah though... Didn't think about that... you might be right! I do think that Dany's position regarding him was the only thing she could do! I was too very upset when I knew that he was still sending info about her from Qarth...

And I'm really glad I survived through the Red Wedding and kept on reading, cause the book just gets more and more awesome! The best of the three, no doubt!

As for Catelyn, I was always a strong Catelyn hater, but had to say she gained some respect in my yes when she died... But I'm not sure I'm happy with this story of bringing her back zombie-style! Curious, though...

Also I was urging for some Lannister's suffering, and now I think I got it! They are pretty much doomed, it seems, and I look forward on knowing what's gonna be of Tyrion! Would love to see him inheriting Casterly Rock, but I know this won't happen now, since he'll be an escaping outlaw

This book to me brought interest to Jon and Bran's plots! For me they were always the least interesting, but this time I was very excited! And I'm said to know that their POVs are not in a FFC, that I start tomorrow!

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I don't know... I finished the book completely mesmerized by LF's wits! I mean, he's now Lord of Harrenhal, Eyre (in the name of Robert), Warden of the East and I'm pretty sure he'll be wanting to marry Sansa and become Lord of Winterfell as well! That was one of the most exciting chapters of all!

For me the discovery of him having told Lysa to murder her husband was a major plot twist! This story was already in the past for me!

As Lord of Harrenhal, he's considered as Lord of the Riverlands aswell. That means he'll be able to be the Lord of the Riverland, Warden of the East, Lord of the Vale and eventually Lord of Winterfell. I can't wait to see where his story goes.

This book to me brought interest to Jon and Bran's plots! For me they were always the least interesting, but this time I was very excited! And I'm said to know that their POVs are not in a FFC, that I start tomorrow!

Bran's story is by far the most interesting one, in my opinion. I'm so curious where he's headed with Coldhands and who he is. I'd go for Benjen Stark, but that might be too obvious, well, maybe it's Ned Stark his 'ghost'? You never know with George R. R. Martin.

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Great book! We share the same view of the Red Wedding. I was disappointed in Tyrion turning on Jaime, the one he loved and who freed him. He knows what an ass his father is, I would have expected him to forgive him. But I guess GRRM needed that (for Tyrion to lie about killing Joffrey) for later in the story .

Can't put these books down.

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Great book! We share the same view of the Red Wedding. I was disappointed in Tyrion turning on Jaime, the one he loved and who freed him. He knows what an ass his father is, I would have expected him to forgive him. But I guess GRRM needed that (for Tyrion to lie about killing Joffrey) for later in the story .

Can't put these books down.

Yeah, I think so. I can't wait to see what happens if Tyrion gets back to Westeros someday. If he does. My speculation: he joins Dany to conquer Westeros, and will

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So I finished the book yesterday :

-As everybody, I was highly disturbed by the Red Wedding, though I knew about it (I read about it on the wiki by accident ) but I think this scene is really disturbing to read. I wasn't prepared for the come back of Catelyn though, so that is a surprise, even though I'm not sure what she will able to do in the future.

- I used to be really fond of Arya, especially in the first book and the way she is pictured in the TV serie. I grew more unconfortable with her, because she lived so many things (killing, torture witnessing and so on), and I suddenly remembered that she is just 10. I still love the character, and love the fact that she is more and more asking for her mother, being scared that she won't like her anymore. I really prayed the book to let her see Catelyn before shed died at the Red Wedding. But I can't referred to her as a cool character. Anyway.

- I am surprised no one talks more of Tyrion, as he is for me the most well-written character in the book. The way he is turned down by his father in the beginning of the book is a bit to "easy" (just the way Catelyn freed Jaime), but you have to make things move. The Move being " Now the Lannisters all hate each others". I wondered what will happen to him now, I can't guess whether he is going to go to Dorne, or to Braavos, or wherever: He seems to have no pieces in hands to play a part right now.

- I wasn't surprised at all by Lysa murdering Jon Arryn : I had seen it coming since the first book, though I thought it was beacause Jon Arryn wanted his kid to be fostered. Lysa seemed crazy enough and over protective to refuse it at any cost, I didn't expected Littlefinger to be apart of the plot though, but now I can see how he's been raising the Starks again the Lannisters (see the dagger used to try to kill Bran, attached to Tyrion), and the way he betrays Ned after Robert's death. I guess he just has a huge chip on his soulder for being low born and kept away from Catelyn and responsabilities in his youth.

6 I wrote seomething in another thread, but I am wondering what happened to the document Robb write about Jon being his heir if he dies without son ? I guess this wil resurface at one point, and Jon might have to consider becoming Lord of Winterfell without taking down the weirwood, which seems to have been his major concern in Stannis' offer. We'll see, then.

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6 I wrote seomething in another thread, but I am wondering what happened to the document Robb write about Jon being his heir if he dies without son ? I guess this wil resurface at one point, and Jon might have to consider becoming Lord of Winterfell without taking down the weirwood, which seems to have been his major concern in Stannis' offer. We'll see, then.

Lady Mormont went to meet the Cranogmen, right? My guess is that, if she doesn't have the letter, at least she might put a word about it...

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What a fantastic book! The red wedding was truly chilling. Perhaps the most memorable scene in the series thus far.

Lord commander Snow! My favorite part.

Second favorite was Tyrions revenge. "Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold"

Sansa should lose LF ASAP

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So I finished the book yesterday :

-As everybody, I was highly disturbed by the Red Wedding, though I knew about it (I read about it on the wiki by accident ) but I think this scene is really disturbing to read. I wasn't prepared for the come back of Catelyn though, so that is a surprise, even though I'm not sure what she will able to do in the future.

- I used to be really fond of Arya, especially in the first book and the way she is pictured in the TV serie. I grew more unconfortable with her, because she lived so many things (killing, torture witnessing and so on), and I suddenly remembered that she is just 10. I still love the character, and love the fact that she is more and more asking for her mother, being scared that she won't like her anymore. I really prayed the book to let her see Catelyn before shed died at the Red Wedding. But I can't referred to her as a cool character. Anyway.

- I am surprised no one talks more of Tyrion, as he is for me the most well-written character in the book. The way he is turned down by his father in the beginning of the book is a bit to "easy" (just the way Catelyn freed Jaime), but you have to make things move. The Move being " Now the Lannisters all hate each others". I wondered what will happen to him now, I can't guess whether he is going to go to Dorne, or to Braavos, or wherever: He seems to have no pieces in hands to play a part right now.

- I wasn't surprised at all by Lysa murdering Jon Arryn : I had seen it coming since the first book, though I thought it was beacause Jon Arryn wanted his kid to be fostered. Lysa seemed crazy enough and over protective to refuse it at any cost, I didn't expected Littlefinger to be apart of the plot though, but now I can see how he's been raising the Starks again the Lannisters (see the dagger used to try to kill Bran, attached to Tyrion), and the way he betrays Ned after Robert's death. I guess he just has a huge chip on his soulder for being low born and kept away from Catelyn and responsabilities in his youth.

6 I wrote seomething in another thread, but I am wondering what happened to the document Robb write about Jon being his heir if he dies without son ? I guess this wil resurface at one point, and Jon might have to consider becoming Lord of Winterfell without taking down the weirwood, which seems to have been his major concern in Stannis' offer. We'll see, then.

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So I finished the book yesterday :

-As everybody, I was highly disturbed by the Red Wedding, though I knew about it (I read about it on the wiki by accident ) but I think this scene is really disturbing to read. I wasn't prepared for the come back of Catelyn though, so that is a surprise, even though I'm not sure what she will able to do in the future.

- I used to be really fond of Arya, especially in the first book and the way she is pictured in the TV serie. I grew more unconfortable with her, because she lived so many things (killing, torture witnessing and so on), and I suddenly remembered that she is just 10. I still love the character, and love the fact that she is more and more asking for her mother, being scared that she won't like her anymore. I really prayed the book to let her see Catelyn before shed died at the Red Wedding. But I can't referred to her as a cool character. Anyway.

- I am surprised no one talks more of Tyrion, as he is for me the most well-written character in the book. The way he is turned down by his father in the beginning of the book is a bit to "easy" (just the way Catelyn freed Jaime), but you have to make things move. The Move being " Now the Lannisters all hate each others". I wondered what will happen to him now, I can't guess whether he is going to go to Dorne, or to Braavos, or wherever: He seems to have no pieces in hands to play a part right now.

- I wasn't surprised at all by Lysa murdering Jon Arryn : I had seen it coming since the first book, though I thought it was beacause Jon Arryn wanted his kid to be fostered. Lysa seemed crazy enough and over protective to refuse it at any cost, I didn't expected Littlefinger to be apart of the plot though, but now I can see how he's been raising the Starks again the Lannisters (see the dagger used to try to kill Bran, attached to Tyrion), and the way he betrays Ned after Robert's death. I guess he just has a huge chip on his soulder for being low born and kept away from Catelyn and responsabilities in his youth.

6 I wrote seomething in another thread, but I am wondering what happened to the document Robb write about Jon being his heir if he dies without son ? I guess this wil resurface at one point, and Jon might have to consider becoming Lord of Winterfell without taking down the weirwood, which seems to have been his major concern in Stannis' offer. We'll see, then.

Yes, I agree that the weirwood was a major concern for Jon, but the biggest , Im guessing is that he still mourned for Ygritte & didn't want to marry Val.

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Just finished Storm of Swords yesterday. wow. I has a two week break in the middle after the Red Wedding, wondering why I should bother with the rest of it but I'm glad I did. Still waiting for Tyrion to do another backflip however.

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Finished storm of swords today - my word, what a book!

I felt sad that the red viper died, but after thinking on it, he's not a nice guy who presumably has done lots of things deserving of death (like when he was young he slept with someone's daughter and then murdered her father in an underhanded nature) and he died. The mountain, who come across deserving worse than the red viper, presumably gets much worse (even the maester didn't know how to deal with the poison or to ease the mountain's pain - pain unquenchable by even the poppy milk, presumably)

After the Red Wedding came in the middle of the book, I felt more at ease with events as it seemed no more tragedies would come (they would surely be dull in comparison, so it didn't make sense to "waste" the death of a likable character so soon).

Thorne and Slynnt (I won't do them the honour of using their first names) are odious, odious cu... errr, men. Almost pantomime standard villains which made it fun to revel in their failure.

One major tease I found frustrating was the Starks (Bran and Arya) dodging reunions when it seemed for many chapters that they would meet. I circumvented that frustration by thinking what might have happened if they'd made it in time though. If Arya and Cat reunited, arya would be dead, and if Bran reunited with Jon, you can bet your bottom dollar that Slynt would have been sending the first raven back to Tywin about it like the slimy little lapdog he is.

Tyrion's vengeance was so sweet, my blood was boiling when I learned of Shae. For a man so intelligent, whores were his glaring weakness, I mean how could he not see it? That she was so much more interested in her jewels than in anything Tyrion had to say should have made him take note at once. It's not as if she's HBO's Shae either, she's just a whore and cruel of the mind (her unsympathetic attitude towards Lady Lollys) too, glad that Tyrion is rid of that cancerous leech.

Looking forward to seeing what become of the almighty Lannisters now that their Kingpin is dead =) A more even playing field all round in this game of thrones.

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Looking forward to seeing what become of the almighty Lannisters now that their Kingpin is dead =) A more even playing field all round in this game of thrones.

IMO, we will see good Lannister rolling... even Cersei, I think she is more stupid than cruel. And she had reasons!

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