Zoë Sumra Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Is it fair to say that a lot of their favourite constituents are far-right? :PBesides, and being serious for a moment, there are many degrees of Euroscepticism. The "what a good thing we didn't join the Euro, I said as much all along" brigade is a long way from the "leave the EU itself NOWWWWW" brigade, and it strikes me that the latter are the problematic ones for the Government at present (irrespective of one's own position on anything - comparing theirs to Cameron's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Is it fair to say that a lot of their favourite constituents are far-right? :PNo, probably not, though I fear we have very different views on what constitutes being far-right. Besides, and being serious for a moment, there are many degrees of Euroscepticism. The "what a good thing we didn't join the Euro, I said as much all along" brigade is a long way from the "leave the EU itself NOWWWWW" brigade, and it strikes me that the latter are the problematic ones for the Government at present (irrespective of one's own position on anything - comparing theirs to Cameron's).I think the "Leave Now" brigade are less of a problem than the "Renegotiate" brigade. The first lot are small and in powerless position, the second far less so on both counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoë Sumra Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 No, probably not, though I fear we have very different views on what constitutes being far-right.Well, not far right as in swastikas/fasces.I think the "Leave Now" brigade are less of a problem than the "Renegotiate" brigade. The first lot are small and in a powerless position, the second far less so on both counts.Hmm, yes. But don't you feel the "renegotiate" brigade's activities are more curtailed by what the rest of the EU does? If (if only) the EU credit crisis is renegotiated, within the eurozone countries, to most people's satisfaction, it weakens the renegotiators more than the leave-nowers, if only because the leave-nowers are so anti-Europe that nothing is really going to be good enough to make them reconsider their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Well, not far right as in swastikas/fasces. Indeed, which just makes me wonder how far-right I am, in your opinion. In would be interesting to be some sort of hippy communist as far as my friends and family are concerned, but some kind of poujadist to the board. Hmm, yes. But don't you feel the "renegotiate" brigade's activities are more curtailed by what the rest of the EU does? If (if only) the EU credit crisis is renegotiated, within the eurozone countries, to most people's satisfaction, it weakens the renegotiators more than the leave-nowers, if only because the leave-nowers are so anti-Europe that nothing is really going to be good enough to make them reconsider their position. Leaving aside the extreme unlikeliness of the EU debt crisis being resolved to most people's satisfaction, I don't think that weakens the Renegotiators position much, if at all. They can still say we have been either soaked for cash to solve EU problems, or left out of the discussions on how to resolve those problems, or need to prevent all of the above the next time it all goes tits up (combine or delete as necessary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 My impression was that anti-europe (as a combination of anti-ECHR and anti-EU opinions) was widespread, probably the majority view and certainly not a left-right division at the voter level.It's not that long ago that the parties switched round on their euro-stances either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Even the right wing of the Tory party hardly counts as far-right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 81 Tory rebels, would it have been much worse without the three line whip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddington Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I don't see anything wrong with being skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 81 Tory rebels, would it have been much worse without the three line whip? Yes. The rebels make up half of the parliamentary party that is not on the government payroll. Without the whip, I imagine a third to a half of junior ministers and bag carriers would probably have voted with the rebels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 81. I thought our Davy did good. I know he'll be dissapointed that it was only 81 rebels when he's got 178 to beat to gain the coveted glory of second largest parliamentary rebellion since the repeal of the corn laws, but he's got to bear in mind that he only just a over a year into his administration. It's still early days. Still plenty of time to get that place in the history book. Maybe he needs to work a bit more on irritating more of his MPs. More dismissive remarks from ministers maybe, or possibly the resignation of more popular members of his cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 He could do with some help, though. Perhaps Vince and Huhne could be persuaded to give a few more interviews. That should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yeah, I think you're right, they've got to knuckle down and understand it's a team game and not about individual glory. Some of them have to get up off the bench and come forward.I know he'll be as sick as a parrot at this result, but it is a game of two halves and there is still everything to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 My impression was that anti-europe (as a combination of anti-ECHR and anti-EU opinions) was widespread, probably the majority view and certainly not a left-right division at the voter level.I think the overwhelming majority of people in the UK don't really give a flying toss about Britain's role in Europe as a long-term geopolitical issue right now, since they are concerned with jobs and the economy. By staying out of the Euro, keeping the EU budget frozen and by not giving huge sums of money to countries like Greece, the coalition government has done a good job - up until the last few weeks anyway - of keeping Europe off the radar, which is essential as it's probably the biggest single dividing line between the Tories and LibDems. In fact, it had to be written into the coalition agreement that the Tories would not seek to make any laws to fundamentally change the UK's status within the EU to keep the LibDems sweet.Unfortunately, this second leg of the economic crisis is being blamed firmly on what's going on in the Eurozone, particularly the ongoing Greek debt crisis, and this has brought Britain's role in Europe back into the headlines over the last couple of months, probably a key reason for the timing of this latest backbench rebellion.I think it's fair to say that a lot of people in Britain are sceptical over the benefits that the EU brings to the country, especially given the huge amounts of money the UK pays into the EU budget and the lack of transparency in some aspects of the EU, not to mention the power wielded by some unelected European bodies. UK businesses, on the other hand, are much more pro-Europe (or at least pro-status quo, and definitely not pro-Euro), claiming that the costs of doing business with Europe would rise significantly if Britain left the EU. I think the general mood right now is that rocking the boat and heading into uncharted waters is probably not the best idea: Britain leaving the EU during the economic crisis could cause more additional economic hardships than it remaining a member would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I agree with that, no matter how much I wish it were otherwise. Reality can be a bugger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I would like to have this referundum at some point in the future. However I don't think we should be talking about one now. Maybe in a few years, when things are more stable. Now is not the right time. or even setting into motion the plans for a future refereundum as it increases instability right now. I really hate it when I agree with Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 What would you hope the referendum would achieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Nievely I hope it would stop everyone moaning that we where never really asked about joining europe (as it is now) / had a say. I would hope it would put an end to the matter. we could be iether in or out and not dithering on the sidelines. and thus we could then as a country plan our future accordinly either fully supporting the EU. Or going it alone with probably just a trading aggreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ah you optimist you!No power on earth exists to stop a Briton from moaning. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebble thats Stubby Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yes I'm am optomist. I don't think I will ever become jaded (not for long anyway). Thing is I know my rosey outlook is not realistic so I never really get that dissapointed.But it would be nice if we as a country could move on from the Europe issue. It would be nice if we could deciede one way or another and stop wasting energy arguing about it. Just think of what we could then achive if only we could face the future and not keep going round in circles.btw I have no idea how I would vote in said referendum. I can see the arguments of both sides.Oh I have spare rose tinted contact lens if anyone wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddington Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Why is the rest of Europe mostly Pro-EU? Would there be a lot of support for a United states of Europe in the other memeber states?Are us Brits just being stubborn and a little silly about the whole thing. I really don't know. My major worry, is that it's easier to give sovereignty away, than it will ever be to reclaim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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