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Tyrion as a Targaryen

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I'm sure this theory has been already discussed to death, but I'm on my re-read now of the series preparing for Dance with Dragons, and I'm getting increasingly confident that this is true, and that there is a lot of forshadowing by Martin in all the books.

I've just read the Tyrion chapter in SoS where he talks with Tywin who denied him Casterly Rock, and where Tywin comments that he could never prove that Tyrion is not his son, so he is forced to treat him as one of his family. Now that by itself may not mean much, just an indication of the dislike that Tywin has for his dwarf son. But I believe this is the second time that Tywin makes the same comment, and it seems strange that Tywin would keep making the same otherwise petty comment - unless he seriously felt that Tyrion could possibly not be his son.

Tywin's last words to Tyrion are also "You are not my son". Admitedly he says the same thing to Jaime, which in fact makes me wonder if this is not a deliberate red herring.

But we also know that Tywin was 20 years the hand of the king. We know that Aerys was envious of him. We know that Aerys wronged him many times, and that this led to Tywin abandoning his post and position, apparently the only man Aerys feared so much as to not try and punish him for it. We are led to believe that what pushed Tywin to leave Aerys' service was Jaime entering the kingsguard, but again we have that from third-hand.

I think the theory that Aerys at some point forced himself on Joanna is a very possible one. Tywin otherwise seems to be at least logical, he knows that death at childbirth is not a conscious fault of the child, to hold a grudge against Tyrion for it. But if he had reason to suspect the child was not his, he would have reason to have such hate for him. It would also explain his own hatred for Targaryens, leading him to order the murder of Rhaegar's children, and letting King's Landing be sacked (which would to him be a city that stayed loyal to Aerys).

At the same time in Feast, Aemon tells Sam that both he and his brothers dreamed of dragons. We know that Daenerys dreamed of dragons before she had her eggs hatched. And if I remember correctly, in book 1 Tyrion also tells Jon that he used to dream of dragons - or at least that he was fascinated by them. If I recall correctly one of his mismatched eyes is also the Targaryen color.

It also seems to have a nice symmetry to it with Tyrion now going to find Dany, and a nice symmetry to the story, with all 3 main characters (Dany, Tyrion and Jon), being the last descendants of a once mighty but fallen dynasty, all 3 of which had to suffer being outcasts in some way in their childhoods.

What do people think? I know that this is probably reviving an old theory, but I didn't want to resurrect any old threads, and I think this is a mystery that could possibly be soon revealed in Dance.

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I've just read the Tyrion chapter in SoS where he talks with Tywin who denied him Casterly Rock, and where Tywin comments that he could never prove that Tyrion is not his son, so he is forced to treat him as one of his family. Now that by itself may not mean much, just an indication of the dislike that Tywin has for his dwarf son. But I believe this is the second time that Tywin makes the same comment, and it seems strange that Tywin would keep making the same otherwise petty comment - unless he seriously felt that Tyrion could possibly not be his son.

IIRC, Tywin does tell Tyrion he is his son in AGOT, at the very end when he sends Tyrion off to King's Landing.

I think the theory that Aerys at some point forced himself on Joanna is a very possible one.

One problem with this is that Joanna was likely not in King's Landing while Tywin was Hand, as she would have stayed in Casterly Rock to run the household.

Tywin otherwise seems to be at least logical, he knows that death at childbirth is not a conscious fault of the child, to hold a grudge against Tyrion for it.

Except that Tywin explicitly tells Tyrion that this is one of the reasons why he hates him.

Honestly, we don't need the T=T theory to explain why Tywin hates Tyrion, we already have all the reasons.

But if he had reason to suspect the child was not his, he would have reason to have such hate for him. It would also explain his own hatred for Targaryens, leading him to order the murder of Rhaegar's children, and letting King's Landing be sacked (which would to him be a city that stayed loyal to Aerys).

First, I don't think we've ever been given any indication that Tywin hates Targs. Tywin himself gives the reasons for why he killed Rhaegar's children: he needed to prove his loyalty to Robert's cause by getting rid of potential rival claimants to the throne.

Second, your proposal that Tywin sacked King's Landing because it "stayed loyal to Aerys" is a bit of a stretch. Sacking is a common military tactic for the likes of Tywin; the T=T theory doesn't explain this any better than the "official" story.

At the same time in Feast, Aemon tells Sam that both he and his brothers dreamed of dragons. We know that Daenerys dreamed of dragons before she had her eggs hatched. And if I remember correctly, in book 1 Tyrion also tells Jon that he used to dream of dragons - or at least that he was fascinated by them.

Personally, I've always considered Tyrion's dragon dreams to be symbolic of something else, though I fear to mention it because it involves a minor spoiler for ADWD. It's a well-known spoiler that many people on the forum are doubtless aware of already (and it's one that you mention in your post), but given the blanket ban on spoilers I thought it best to err on the side of caution and not repeat it.

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I actually really like the idea that Tyrion is a Targ. While I haven't seen proof per se, there have been many nuances (or possibly red herrings).

I mean, why would Prince Oberyn have heard the tales about Tyrion's appearance at birth the way he did? My only guess is maybe he was an experiment of sorts. Parts of this "description" (far below) could easily match a dragon (especially the gender element -- I'm not sure where I read it, but somewhere I thought I read that dragons are not male or female, but either/both).

Obviously Tyrion is male (his birth hair was dark though) but maybe prior to his birth, someone expected a little dragon-type thing, thus beginning the rumors.

As for tywin not killing him -- it is said "many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin."

----

"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine’s. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion’s claws. Your teeth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl’s privates as well as a boy’s."

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I mean, why would Prince Oberyn have heard the tales about Tyrion's appearance at birth the way he did?

Because people heard Tyrion was "ugly" and possibly "monstrous", and the tales grew from there.

Honestly, I'm really having a hard time seeing how this supports the T=T theory. Why would anyone have expected Tyrion to come out looking like a dragon? No other Targaryen child has.

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Because people heard Tyrion was "ugly" and possibly "monstrous", and the tales grew from there.

Honestly, I'm really having a hard time seeing how this supports the T=T theory. Why would anyone have expected Tyrion to come out looking like a dragon? No other Targaryen child has.

Except Rhaego.

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Because people heard Tyrion was "ugly" and possibly "monstrous", and the tales grew from there.

Honestly, I'm really having a hard time seeing how this supports the T=T theory. Why would anyone have expected Tyrion to come out looking like a dragon? No other Targaryen child has.

You could be 100% spot-on (and likely are! lol) -- but I guess I'm seeing the possibility of Tyrion being the result of some nasty dragon-esque experiment, (not a full-blown targ baby) -- in which case, word may spread as rumor. Rumor grows, changes and becomes the tale of Tywin's newborn being a hideous monster.

I actually like Tywin and I just can't see this very deep-seeded hatred based on a) his wife dying (many did during childbirth, but he is a smart man, and would know it is not the baby's fault) and B) the fact that Tyrion is a dwarf (and a smart dwarf at that).

Just seems strange for a man who is clearly smart, if not the nicest guy in the world. I think there has to be more, like a "reason" he blames his wife's death on a newborn baby. (And being an ugly dwarf is not reason enough when "kin" is so important to him).

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I'm not saying there's proof... I'm saying that there's evidence and possible forshadowing. I also think that Tywin honestly does not know that Tyrion is NOT his son (if, for arguments sake we accept the theory that Joanna was raped by Aerys). As for the part in GoT in which Tywin tells Tyrion he is his son - don't we have it from Tyrion's own point of view that he believes the recognition comes only because Tywin believes Jaime to be all but dead by now? If I remember correctly in their previous encounter Tywin again claims that he has to accept him as he 'cannot prove that he is not his own' (I'm fairly certain this comment is made in book 1 at some point, though to be honest, I can't remember where exactly, if its something Tyrion remembers, or if its in an actual conversation between the two).

Look, obviously there's nothing to prove this, I'm saying however that there's definitely some potential evidence there:

- Tyrion's fascination and dreaming of dragons as a child (which seems to be similar to dreams shared by Targaryens)

- Tywin's intense dislike of him, even before his first sexual misadventure with Tysha.

- Tywin's tense departure from King's Landing as King and his brooding over the 'wrongs that Aerys did him'.

- The fact that we are told that Aerys 'envied' Tywin.

- The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.

- Tyrion's hald eye color.

- Tywin's comment that he could not prove Tyrion is not his son, and the fact his final words are in fact, you are not my son.

We are told by other characters that Tywin is the son that most resembles Tywin. But here perhaps comes the argument of nature vs nurture. Tywin may not be a natural son of Tywin, but he grows up looking at the man who he sees as his father and copying parts of his cunning. In fact, the very fact that Tywin is so bothered by his sister's comment that he does not talk to her, for what, how long was it, may actually be evidence for the theory - that he is so offended to be told (or perhaps to realize) that the one son whom he fears may not be his own, and may be the product of the violation of his wife and house, would be the one to turn out to resemble him most, rather than his true-born children.

Of course I could be wrong. I think I'd personally prefer it if Tyrion stayed a Lannister. I think it adds more tragedy and realism to his story, and the twist would perhaps seem too fantastic if it came to be true. But all I'm saying is that the potential evidence is there.

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If I recall correctly one of his mismatched eyes is also the Targaryen color.

Which one do you mean? His eyes are green and black and I don't remember any of the Targaryens having those eye colors except Shiera Seastar, whose eyes were green and blue (also mismatched). What am I forgetting?

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Which one do you mean? His eyes are green and black and I don't remember any of the Targaryens having those eye colors except Shiera Seastar, whose eyes were green and blue (also mismatched). What am I forgetting?

Ah true you are right actually. My mistake there then. Well one less evidence to support the theory.

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Had Tyrion been an acknowledged Targaryen, he'd probably have had no better of a time growing up than he did as a Lannister. Rhaegar could have been his Jaime, but that asshole Aerys would have been as bad to him as Tywin and Cersei combined.

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- Tyrion's fascination and dreaming of dragons as a child...

The second part can be explained by the first part: Tyrion dreams of dragons because he's fascinated by them. And as I said before, if it's meant to be foreshadowing, I think it refers more to...something else I can't mention (damn the blanket ban on spoilers!)

- Tywin's intense dislike of him, even before his first sexual misadventure with Tysha.

This is not a mystery. Tywin hates Tyrion because he killed his mother in childbirth, and because he gives the realm a reason to mock House Lannister. And as Genna states in AFFC, if there's anything Tywin hated the most, it was being laughed at.

- Tywin's tense departure from King's Landing as King and his brooding over the 'wrongs that Aerys did him'.

Again, not a mystery. Aerys snubbed Tywin's offer of a marriage between Cersei and Rhaegar, then took his heir away from him. And if Tywin left King's Landing because his wife had been raped, it seems odd that he waited years to do so. I suppose Aerys could have told him sometime after Harrenhal in order taunt him, but then there's the question of when Aerys could have raped her given that she was likely in Casterly Rock most of the time.

- The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.

Also not a mystery, as I've explained in a previous post.

- Tywin's comment that he could not prove Tyrion is not his son, and the fact his final words are in fact, you are not my son.

I think this just shows that Tywin wishes Tyrion were not his son. I think Tyrion actually being not only his son, but the son who was most like him, just makes the irony of his downfall even crueler. It adds much to the story, whereas Tyrion being a Targ adds...well, I'm not really sure what it adds.

But all I'm saying is that the potential evidence is there.

The potential is there, certainly, but so far I think the theory is weak, simply because most of all the "clues" can be explained by other things explicitly mentioned in the books.

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Which one do you mean? His eyes are green and black and I don't remember any of the Targaryens having those eye colors except Shiera Seastar, whose eyes were green and blue (also mismatched). What am I forgetting?

I think it is mentioned that Targ eyes can be so purple they seem black. I'd think that the mix of one green eye and one black could be symbolic of him being part Lannister (Joanna) and part Targ.

I think there are alot of suggestions pointing in all kinds of directions with the Lannister children though. I'm not convinced either way concerning the T=T theory.

Edit: One thing I wondered about on my pre-ADWD re-read though, concerning Tyrion's birth...Why were Oberyn and Elia in Casterly Rock after Tyrion's birth? Did they come just because of the rumours, or could there be something else behind it? Because as Tyrion himself thinks when he hears the story, it was a strange time to visit when Casterly Rock was in mourning for his mother.

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I think it is mentioned that Targ eyes can be so purple they seem black. I'd think that the mix of one green eye and one black could be symbolic of him being part Lannister (Joanna) and part Targ.

Edit: One thing I wondered about on my pre-ADWD re-read though, concerning Tyrion's birth...Why were Oberyn and Elia in Casterly Rock after Tyrion's birth? Did they come just because of the rumours, or could there be something else behind it? Because as Tyrion himself thinks when he hears the story, it was a strange time to visit when Casterly Rock was in mourning for his mother.

I think that is said in one of the Dunk&Egg stories. But it was still purple and only seemed black in certain light.. Wouldn't someone notice that one of Tyrion's eyes is actually dark purple in his 20+ years and talk about it? And Tywin could use that eye color to prove that Tyrion isn't his, so I think it's more likely that it's actually black.

It's mentioned somewhere that Joanna and Lady Martell wanted to marry Elia to Jaime and/or Cersei to Oberyn, which is why Martells went to visit Casterly Rock. They heard about Joanna's death when they reached Oldtown but came anyway so that Lady Martell could talk to Tywin about it.

ETA: Found it.

"Just so. It was my belief that the mothers had cooked up this plot between them. Squire Squishlips and his ilk and the various pimply young maidens who'd been paraded before me were the almonds before the feast, meant only to whet our appetites. The main course was to be served at Casterly Rock. "

"Cersei and Jaime. "

"Such a clever dwarf. Elia and I were older, to be sure. Your brother and sister could not have been more than eight or nine. Still, a difference of five or six years is little enough. And there was an empty cabin on our ship, a very nice cabin, such as might be kept for a person of high birth. As if it were intended that we take someone back to Sunspear. A young page, perhaps. Or a companion for Elia. Your lady mother meant to betroth Jaime to my sister, or Cersei to me. Perhaps both. "

"Perhaps, " said Tyrion, "but my father — "

— ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but was ruled at home by his lady wife, or so my mother always said. " Prince Oberyn raised his arms, so Lord Dagos Manwoody and the Bastard of Godsgrace could slip a chainmail bymie down over his head. "At Oldtown we learned of your mother's death, and the monstrous child she had borne. We might have turned back there, but my mother chose to sail on. I told you of the welcome we found at Casterly Rock."

"What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead. "

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I gotta agree with the second post... I've always hated this theory. First, the evidence is thin enough to make it a fringe hypothesis. There is next to zero evidence that Aerys raped or had any sort of affair with Joanna. Second, it ruins the great Shakespearean tones of Tyrion and Tywin's story. Third, it reeks of fanboyism. The stunted, clever, little fan-favorite is really a lost prince and dragonrider! Blech. At least R+L=J has been thoroughly set up.

In sum, it would take away a lot more from the story then it would add.

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Ah true you are right actually. My mistake there then. Well one less evidence to support the theory.

No, actually, you were right the first time. Or at least, there is evidence to support it. Or, at least I think there is.

There is another reference to a character with dark purple eyes, so dark as to be almost black. Though I can't remember whom. I remember reading it clearly, and it was followed soon thereafter by a Tyrion chapter (edit: or a reference to Tyrion's eyes) remarking on his green/black eyes. Soon enough after that I said to myself, "what if his eyes aren't black at all, but instead a dark, deep purple?"

On a side note, deep purple, dragons, smoke on the water?

Back on topic, Tyrion is described as having white-blond hair (different from the spun gold of Jaime and Cersei).

And he also shares another thing with Dany, and Jon Snow if Lyanna is his mother, all three had their mothers die giving birth to them. Maybe it is some quirky Targ family trait, which may explain why they intermarry so much. Maybe full-blooded Targs have a better chance of surviving childbirth, though Dany's did not.

Anyway, I wish I could come up with chapter and verse on the whole dark puple/black thing. I though it was Edric Dayne, but that was deep blue/purple.

EDIT: OK, I found it. AFFC, The Queenmaker (Arianne's chapter), p. 425-426, paperback/US edition. "Arianne watched him warily. He is highborn enough to make a worthy consort, she thought. Father would question my good sense but our children would be as beautiful as dragonlords. If there was a handsomer man in Dorne, she did not know him. Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a sliver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

So, one character with dark purple eyes that can easily be mistaken for black, might there be another. Say a short Lannister with too-white blond hair whom his father thinks may not be his, dreams of Dragons, and killed his mother during childbirth?

Plus, is the reference to dragonlords in the passage referencing a character with dark purple eyes that seem black just a coincidence? Or not?

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