Tyrion as a Targaryen

[DragonSpawn]

Part of me wonders if Tyrion is something to do with this Shpynx that is the riddle not the riddler... or something odd like that.. depending on what sources you look at the Sphynx is a lions body with a mans head... (or a bald cat!) the reference to riddles is interesting as Tyrion is the best placed character to unlock all the mysteries as he has been pretty much everywhere... he even makes a throw away comment about dragons raised from stone and sphynx's when recalling the books he used to read... (this always struck me as odd as this sounds like the book that Melisandre, Rhaegar etc...are obsessed with.. but it was never brought up again.... all i remember is that Tyrion didn't seem to think it very important... which is stark contrast to everyone else who seems to be going to war over what was prophecised in this book!!!) - i don't know if this means he can't be a head of a Dragon... he still doesn't get ill when he really should have done by now... it's not unlikely that Aerys took liberties with Joanna... and he has an obsession with Dragons... and there is this 'lord of dragonflies' stuff too... + it seems really odd that Tywin would marry his cousin! - what other purpose for this than providing an opportunity for Aerys to shag a lion and have half lion / half dragon offspring?

Regarding his black eye being a dark purple... i'm pretty sure this would have been brought up already... mirrors do exist in ASOIAF! I'm sure Tyrion would have noticed!

Does anyone know anything more about this Sphynx?

[Fearsome Fred]

I don't buy Tywin saying that Tyrion "isn't his son" as evidence that Tyrion isn't his son, sorry.

As proof? No. As evidence? Sure. It is obviously not conclusive, neither on its own nor in combination with all the other "clues". But it is still fair to cite it in support of the theory.

Think of it this way: All else being the same, but Tyrion wasn't born a dwarf, would Tywin have that same attitude toward him?

I don't know. Neither do you. Perhaps he would have treated him exactly the same EXCEPT he never would have stated that he suspected Tyrion was not his son.

Tywin suspects Tyrion may not be his own. He may be wrong (as even he acknowledges), but is obviously in a better position to judge this than you or I or Tyrion. It is reasonable to give his opinion SOME weight.

I think there is an unfortunate tendency, in arguments like this, to deny that one's opponents have presented any evidence at all. This is unnecessarily dismissive. Better to say that you find the evidence inconclusive and insufficient.

Note that, although I believe Tyrion is in some sense a "dragon", I have no strong opinion as to whether he is a Targ bastard.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tywin suspects Tyrion may not be his own. He may be wrong (as even he acknowledges), but is obviously in a better position to judge this than you or I or Tyrion. It is reasonable to give his opinion SOME weight.

I'm sorry, I don't give it any weight because it mostly has to do with Tyrion's deformity and little if anything to do with an actual suspicion. The only reason Tywin "suspects" (read: wants desperately to believe) that Tyrion is not his is because Tyrion was born a dwarf. If you take that out of the equation, I don't think that suspicion would exist. Period.

I think there is an unfortunate tendency, in arguments like this, to deny that one's opponents have presented any evidence at all. This is unnecessarily dismissive. Better to say that you find the evidence inconclusive and insufficient.

I find the evidence inconclusive and highly insufficient. Better? :P

[Fearsome Fred]

I'm sorry, I don't give it any weight because it mostly has to do with Tyrion's deformity and little if anything to do with an actual suspicion.

Sure. One can always choose to disregard inconclusive evidence. I'm sure nobody is claiming that there is absolute proof.

The only reason Tywin "suspects" (read: wants desperately to believe) that Tyrion is not his is because Tyrion was born a dwarf. If you take that out of the equation, I don't think that suspicion would exist. Period.

So you speculate. But, of course, you might be wrong. That might not be the ONLY reason, nor even a sufficient reason, for Tywin to say Tyrion is not his son.

I find the evidence inconclusive and highly insufficient. Better? :P

I'm perfectly fine with that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So you speculate. But, of course, you might be wrong. That might not be the ONLY reason.

I might be wrong, yes. But up to this point I've seen no persuasive evidence to the contrary.

[Wouter]

Why, and I am truly interested to know, is this then so important to you? I mean, the debate is interesting but we will find out anyway.

Partly because that is we what we do on this section of the board over the years - discuss the books in and out, over and over again!

For me, I felt that recently, the discussion about Tyrion on the one hand, and Jaime and Cersei on the other hand as half-Targaryens, became entirely unbalanced as Tyrion lost popularity as a character. It seems to me like it became "fashionable", so to speak, to write that there is no proof whatsoever for Tyrion's case, while there is good evidence for Jaime and Cersei. People also seem to argue against the Tyrion theory because most feel the books would be much worse if Tywin wasn't Tyrion's (biological) father. I don't feel particularly strongly about the latter, Tywin as stepfather works for me as well as Tywin as 100% genuine father.

The only reason Tywin "suspects" (read: wants desperately to believe) that Tyrion is not his is because Tyrion was born a dwarf.

We don't know that, though. It is not an unreasonable assumption to make, but it is an assumption as we never looked in Tywin's head to see where his doubts truly originate. You can only make such a definite statement if you start from the assumption that Tyrion is indeed certain to be Tywin's son (and he thus has no other reason to be suspicious but his dwarfism). For all we know, Tywin noticed suspicious behaviour in Joanna and found out Aerys may have had an opportunity at the right time. Or not, but there is no definite proof either way.

Hence, even if Tyrion was not a dwarf Tywin might still have acted the same and said the same things to him (minus the specific references to dwarfism and motley). It all depends on Tywin's exact motives, and only Martin knows for sure.

[SummerIsGoing]

Regardless of which theory you support, I don't understand why people think it diminishes the impact of Tyrion killing Tywin if he is a Targ.

It is repeatedly said that Tywin was ruled by Joanna. If Tywin protected Tyrion out of some promise/respect for his departed wife and Tyrion kills him, there is another kind of poetry there. Plus, that would mean Tyrion is unknowingly avenging his family.

[wiggin]

I don't know if anyone has brought this up (I gave a quick read through of all the posts and didn't see it), but I feel like the case for Tyrion being a Targ is quite a bit stronger than we may have thought. On a reread of CoK I found the passage: "A white lion ran through grass taller than a man." Maybe I'm wanting to see something that's not there, but a lion (lannister) that's white (signature hair/"fur" color of a Targ) running through grass taller than a man seems to strongly foreshadow an impish Targ/Lan character. Just my thoughts.

[Solmyr]

Yesterday on my 3rd re-read of ADwD, as I was going through one of the final Tyrion chapters, it suddenly dawned on me why he might be a Targ. I had known all the arguments that you guys were basing your theory on for a long time, but none of them ever convinced me. But that single extra bit was the tipping point for me.

Early in ADwD when the pale mare (bloody flux) first arrives in Meereen we see everyone scared shitless to go near anyone who might be sick, for the disease is extremely contagious. Everyone advises Dany to stay the hell away from those infected, but she firmly believes that she won't catch.

“I am the blood of the dragon,” Dany reminded him. “Have you ever seen a dragon with the

flux?” Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted

common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and

afraid, but never sick.

For the sake of the argument assume this is indeed so, Targaryens's dragon blood protects them from most common diseases.

Now consider what Tyrion has to go through in ADwD. First he almost drowns in the Sorrows and by all rights should have caught the greyscale, but he doesn't. Connington, who only pulls him out, immediately catches it. Later on Tyrion finds himself in the midst of a siege that is being wiped out by the pale mare. Even most slaves refuse to aid their sick masters, but Tyrion tends to Yezzan himself, to the extent of literally wiping his ass. The book ends shortly thereafter, so we cannot know for certain that Tyrion will actually avoid the pale mare, but it seems very unlikely that TWoW will start with him dying in his own shit.

I know that those of you who firmly oppose the T=T theory would now counter with: "Well there are many people in that siege camp who don't catch the pale mare, are all of them Targs?" Same can be said for the Sorrows - Connington caught the greyscale, but everyone else on the boat was fine. There are probably cases of other characters who have never been truly sick in circumstances where they ought to have been.

Nevertheless, I think the sheer amount of hints, in ADwD alone, that Tyrion might be Aerys' son should keep us open-minded on the matter.

I like Tyrion as a Lannister well and good, but there just are ample reasons to doubt that.

[Spjuth]

Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted

common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and

afraid, but never sick.

But this is NOT true.

There is at least some old Targs that died in the Spring flux (or what is was called), about a hundred years ago. But Viserys and Dany don't seems to know this.

There is a lot pointing at one of the Lannister siblings being a Targ, but if any of them is, I don't think it's Tyrion. He is indeed his Fathers (Tywin) son.

[corbon]

flux?” Viserys had oft claimed that Targaryens were untroubled by the pestilences that afflicted

common men, and so far as she could tell, it was true. She could remember being cold and hungry and

afraid, but never sick.

For the sake of the argument assume this is indeed so, Targaryens's dragon blood protects them from most common diseases.

No, don't 'assume it is true' for the sake of the argument, then follow that argument through to a conclusion.

Look at the evidence for the statement. None for. Plenty against (there is no other reason to tell us of multiple full-blood Targs dying of disease than to show Viserys' idiocy up).

Look at the source. A certifiable moron who believed in his own semi-divinity and anything which supported that claim. Dany is not much better, showing significant instances of self-delusion. She has been sick (she recognises a self-fever), she is sick at the end of ADwD.

The disease-immunity claim by Viserys fits in the same basket as the hordes of small-folk secretly sewing dragon banners.

Tyrion's current disease immunity is from something called 'plot armour'.

[Blackhaven]

There is a lot pointing at one of the Lannister siblings being a Targ, but if any of them is, I don't think it's Tyrion. He is indeed his Fathers (Tywin) son.

I believe ADWD implies that the Mad King may have claimed First Right when Tywin and Joanna Lannister married. If that did occur and Lady Joanna bore Targaryen offspring, it would be her firstborn - which turned out to be the twins Cersei and Jamie.

Could the twins be half-targaryen? They share the Targaryen acceptance of incest and I think an arguement could be made that Cersei exhibits the Targaryen madness. Jamie has potential for greatness, having a lot of natural potential for success. I lean towards this possiblity more than Tyrion being part Targaryen.

Tywin's sister Genna tells Jamie that of the three Lannister children Tyrion was the most like Tywin. Tyrion recognizes this as well when he kills his father and says, "I am you writ small." These two occurances lead me to conclude that Tyrion is most Lannister of the lot.

From Tywin's perspective, suppose for a moment that the twins were born of the Mad King and Lady Joanna. Tywin could not admit it or he would bring shame upon his house. He would make the world believe the children were his and his will would be strong enough that he would even make himself believe it most times. Then along comes Tyrion, his only true son...who ends up being a dwarf. A shame on the the Lannister house. He could have had Tyrion killed easily enough as a baby without much consequences. But Tyrion would be the only true born issue of Tywin and Joanna. Something he could not let go of, even if he was shamed by Tyrion being a dwarf and vengeful of Joanna dying while giving birth to him.

This puts Tywin in a painful position, leading him to say at times "You are my son" and at others "You are not my son."

[Ser Lepus]

I believe ADWD implies that the Mad King may have claimed First Right when Tywin and Joanna Lannister married.

I think Tywin would have rebelled that same night, no matter the consequences. Lord Tywin cannot stand being shamed or ridiculed, and while he could play dumb when Aerys made some gross remarks, he wouldn´t allow him to have sex with his bride (or would have rejected Joanna afterwards, asking for annullment, no matter if he loved her or not).

[boldunderlined]

Let's add some fuel to the fire :)

From AFFC:

"Dim as it was, the light was welcome after the blackness of the tunnel. The juncture was otherwise empty, but on the floor was a mosaic of a three-headed dragon wrought in red and black tiles. Something niggled at Tyrion for a moment. Then it came to him. This is the place Shae told me of, when Varys first led her to my bed."

Perhaps it wasn't the memory of Shae niggling him after all...

From ADWD:

Tyrion II

"but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night."

A somewhat extreme reaction...

Later in Tyrion II

"That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping."

One head for a Targaryen bastard, one for the Lannisters.

All open to interpretation, of course.

[Lizaveta Martell]

I think this all boils down to the kinslaying trap. Does GRRM want Tyrion to be cursed very meaningfully forever (after all, Robb killed a Kar-Stark who is like a 12th cousin twice removed and ended up with a wolf sewn on his neck)? Has Tyrion really suffered the way all other kinslayers have been shown to suffer? If anything, he seems lucky as hell in ADWD. No greyscale, no pale mare, no lions eating him, no drowning.

Which is not to say that I think Tyrion is a Targaryen. But if he's not, he's kinda screwed. Does GRRM want him screwed?

[eyeheartsansa]

this is one of the few fan theories that I really like. Without getting into all the finer points, what I think is:

It makes better sense than Jon being a Targ. Jon looks and acts 100% Stark all the way, whereas Tyrion acts like a Targ who's been raised amongst by Lannisters. That's the overall vibe I get from him at least. It doesn't have to be the case. If it is, readers will be easily be able to look back and see the clues. If not, it won't really matter.

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

Biologically sounds irrational. Targs had been inbreeding for generations , had dwarfism(or dwarvism) been a recessive trait ,it would have shown in AT LEAST one fourth of the Targs. But it just didn't happen. It has to be a recessive Lannister trait which came out only because MY CREATOR married his cousin.

[Lord Toblerone]

Biologically sounds irrational. Targs had been inbreeding for generations , had dwarfism(or dwarvism) been a recessive trait ,it would have shown in AT LEAST one fourth of the Targs. But it just didn't happen. It has to be a recessive Lannister trait which came out only because MY CREATOR married his cousin.

I think dwarfism is usually a random mutation, rather than a recessive trait.

[Lizaveta Martell]

Dwarfism is actually dominant, but is commonly the result of mutation. http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=179

[Lizaveta Martell]

that being said, GRRM clearly isn't playing by the real world rules of genetics.