Tyrion as a Targaryen

[Woman of War]

[Jô Maltese]

The back and forth on this topic does get tiresome to read, as does the “if Martin does this, I’ll stop reading” regardless of whether it's for A+J=T or A+J=C+J.

I’ll state up front I’m an A+J=T fan and opposed to the A+J=C+J suggestions.

To attempt to briefly summarize before launching in to my additional support:

- Tyrion's fascination and dreaming of dragons as a child (which seems to be similar to dreams shared by Targaryens)

- Tywin's intense dislike of him, even before his first sexual misadventure with Tysha.

- Tywin's tense departure from King's Landing as King’s Hand and his brooding over the 'wrongs that Aerys did him'.

- The fact that we are told that Aerys 'envied' Tywin.

- The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.

- Tyrion's hair and eye color.

- Tywin's comment that he could not prove Tyrion is not his son

- Tywin’s dying words “You … you are no … no son of mine”.

- Selmy’s revelation that Aerys was randy for Joanna

- Suggestion that Targaryeans are immune to disease/poison (Bealor the blessed walks through pit of vipers, Danny does not catch pale mare, Tyrion does not catch greyscale)

- AGOT Direwolf unusual dislike of Tyrion when he returns from the wall and passes back through Winterfell

- Tryion likes his bacon burnt

- If Tyrion is Targ, then he's not a kinslayer and can avoid kinslayer "curse"

- Revelation that Dragons only bind with Targ blood humans (which is different than “letting” a non Targ ride them)

In case you missed that last one, it’s from the most recent Dangerous Women book which is about the first Dance of Dragons Civil War about 170 years earlier than AGOT events. A reviewer summarized part of the synopsis as such:

“Beyond all these little bits of Westerosi history repeating, we also get our first real glimpse of dragon-centric warfare, along with the problem of finding able riders. Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood, the story chronicles the search for bastard-born “dragonseeds” to join the fray (with mixed results)—a subplot which clearly holds some potential relevance for Daenerys and her trio of dragons as events continue to unfold in the novels…”

So we definitely need hidden Targaryens, but we only need three. Danny is obvious, Jon slightly less so but almost universally accepted. Is the third Tyrion or Aegon (my assumption is Aegon is real but based solely on Varys’s speech with Ser Kevan. No point in lying to a dying man).

New points no one has made in this thread yet

1. Compare Aegon conquerer with 2 sisters vs Daenerys the conqueror with 2 “brothers”
2. Tyrion “knows” how to construct saddles, for unusual riders. He’ll be constructing saddles for unusual mounts soon too. Shape the horse to the rider
3. Tyrion knows more about dragons than possibly anyone alive including some aspects of dragon mating which would be helpful in leading to more eggs. Keep in mind Maester Marwyn is on his way to Danny too, ideally with some of those snazy glass candle communication devices
4. Tyrion, unlike Aegon, meets the requirements for AAR ie reborn under a bleeding star amidst smoke and salt - amazing how none of his wounds got infected. Obviously Danny fulfills this too as does Jon (referencing of course the sigil of Ser Patrek Mallister - we just need to wait for the rebirth part still)
5. Not being Lannister gets Tyrion out of all of Brown Ben Plumm's signatory notes

The real stumbling block is the “reveal”. How can GRRM successfully convince readers when there are no living corroborators like for Jon (Howland Reed, not to mention Bran’s ability to review the past like when Eddard prays to the hearth tree that Robb and Jon will grow up together as brothers. I’m sure Ned spilled the whole secret to the hearth tree)

Thankfully, GRRM has been preparing us for the grand reveal all along

1. Dragons sense Targaryen blood, no matter how small
   1. Brown Ben Plumm
   2. Quentyn Martel

Is it possible that Drogon arrives to the arena when he does because he senses two Targaryens in close proximity? The other two dragons are still “imprisoned” under the pyramid but Drogon is free and the timing seems less than coincidental that he arrive shortly after Tyrion departs Danny’s presence (indeed, Tyrion is probably still very close to Danny just underneath the stadium grounds rather than above them)

1. Dragon binding requires a “magic” horn and blood and fire
   1. Victarion, coincidently enough has such a magic horn with him on his ship
   2. He is off the coast of Yaros perhaps a day or two of sailing from Yunkai
   3. How convenient that some “useless frog of a character” has just engineered the release of the other two dragons from their prison and they are now free to fly at will around the city (it's almost like Quentyn's character suddenly has a point?!? not jjust any Targ blood will work, set dragons free, further eliminate primary house lines to make Targ royal line acceptance "simpler")
   4. Danny has just re-encountered the Dothraki, who will be eager to sack Mehreen when they hear of how weak the Yunkai armies are after riding the pale mare
   5. In short, Yunkish forces will be beset by land, sea, and air in the first battle to include dragons since before the Blackfyre rebellion.

So, how will it play out? First, we need the battle. Enter the Dothraki forces in a surprise attack. Lo and behold Martin has already given us a paragraph of a Tyrion chapter from the next book where he hears repeated calls of alarm of “to horse” implying a cavalry charge is inbound. Next, we need blood, so Tyrion will take some kind of a wound, nothing deadly or mortal but enough to slow him down and cause him to bleed. Third a dragon, enter Drogon being ridden by Danny, and naturally Rheagal and Viseryion will join the fray. A dragon (my vote is for Rheagal since he is green), will land close to Tyrion in his wounded state to feast on some creature, horse, elephent, whatever. Selmy and the forces in side Mehreen will open the gates and fight as well. The sellswords, remnants of previous Bittersteel rebellions will switch to the side with dragons, aka the winning side. Finally, the horn is sounded by Victarion (under the guidance of Moqorro, either someone else will sound the horn or a lot of blood will be spilt first) upon seeing the dragons in the field. And voila – suddenly dragon near Tyrion binds to Tyrion. GRRM doesn’t have to go through an elaborate introduction of unknown characters to convince the reader that T=T. The dragons will settle it. Aftermath of the battle, as Danny travels East, Selmy and Tyrion, and Danny can discuss, amoungst other things what the chronology of events were leading to Tyrions birth, confirming that he is indeed Targ bastard to Joanna, Tywin is not his father, Jaime/Cersie are half siblings, he’s not a kinslayer, but all of this can be after the grand reveal, rather than before.

Not only does Danny finally get out of Mehreen, but now she’ll also have a fleet of 60 ships to aid in transporting her army across to Westeros, thanks to Victarion.

Think this is far-fetched? Think Tyrion’s dragon dreams are the same as the dreams of any child for a pony? Think again:

ADWD Tryion II:

“That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.”

Remember Tyrion doesn’t know that Barristan the Bold is with Danny when he has this dream. He’s going to kill his father again because he’s going to learn that Tywin isn’t his father, and killing Jaime is symbolic of J+C being half siblings not full (sorry fans of A+J=C+J isn’t happening). The Lannister half cries and the Targaryen half laughs.

GRRM is a storytelling master. That’s all there is too it.

Good stuff, especially your 'new point 5' about the signatory notes for the Second Sons, the dreaming of Barristan Selmy or the 'second killing of his father. I am also a believer of 'Tyrion is a Targ' theory but I am not sure he is the son of Aerys II..., he also could be Rhaegar's son (and therefore Jon's brother)!

More here:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102787-aerys-spurned-cersei-because-of-tyrion/

And there: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97382-tyrions-paternity-re-visited/

Oh, and I am convinced Tyrion will ride Viserion, not Rhaegal, check here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102076-danys-dragonriders-tpatq-spoilers-with-the-improved-op/, this in particular (Viserion's hatching):

Quote

A chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, (...)

And for Tyrion as a dragon himself:

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Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

Contrary to what many people think, I find the bolded part pointing at Tyrion being also a Dragon. A big shadow is a recurrent description of dragons characteristics in GRRM's stories, especially when they fly under the sun. Also, as mentioned above, for me the snarling conveys both the ideas of a ferocious animal (e.g. a direwolf, a lion... or a dragon) showing its teeth and growling, or of something entangling like a snake... Or a dragon's tail? In addition, the very fact that Tyrion is neither old nor young, neither true nor false (if indeed Tyrion has Targ blood, it would either come from a female line or bastardry, hence not legitimate), neither bright nor dark (Tyrion is very much a grey character, and not fuelled by magic nor religion), makes me feel that the hidden message of Moqorro's dream is that Tyrion is a dragon, but nobody realises it because the other six attract the focus of all observers.

I also find the number of dragons mentioned, six (old + young + true + false + bright + dark) very interesting with regard to what the Quiet Isle Elder Brother said about Rhaegar's rubies:

Quote

Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.

The six dragons found would be the old, young, true, false, bright and dark ones ; the seventh still unfound (amidst sounds like ​in a mist, i.e. hidden) would be Tyrion.

Last, there is also this theory about a more 'classic' origin of Targ blood in the Lannister family, here: http://asoiaf.wester...ers-and-plumms/

[Lord Varys]

It's clear that Moqorro is playing with Tyrion during their banters. The whole taking-Tyrion-along-for-the-ride-thing is a huge practical joke on anyone involved, since Moqorro does know what's going to happen. And GRRM having Moqorro indicate that Tyrion, too, is a dragon, would have been a little bit too much way too soon... After Moqorro's very precise visions of the future in the Victarion chapters any hint from him pointing towards Tyrion's true heritage would have pretty much confirmed it.

It's also very likely that Barristan Selmy does not only know about Aerys' interest in Joanna, but also about later developments of that affair. Dany only asked about the people her parents truly loved, she did not inquire whether she has any bastard brothers. And Barristan seems to be very reluctant to discuss Aerys and Joanna. He is quite open about Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty, but he is touchy about Aerys. And there would not have been any reason to be so if nothing happened afterwards. Barristan could have easily been the Kingsguard guarding the bedchamber of the king when he invited Joanna into his bed.

Thus he could be the one revealing the truth to both Tyrion and Dany upon their (re-)meeting. That may also be the reason why GRRM did not let Tyrion join Dany or Barristan in ADwD. He wanted to postpone that revelation until TWoW. It's also interesting to note that Tyrion does not remember any meetings/conversations with Barristan Selmy throughout the whole novel.

[Erryk]

I, too, subscribe to the T = T theory, but I feel compelled to point out that even if it's true, Tyrion is still a kinslayer, because Tywin and Joanna were cousins.

[True.Edged]

Tyrion is his fathers son, that father being Tywin Lannister. Anything else just stinks of wishful thinking.

If Tywin had a son that was not his, but instead that of Aerys then that son is Jaime. Which would also be much better writing.

The son he loves is a Targ, and the son he hates is his only Legitimate offspring.

[Ser Creighton]

Good stuff, especially your 'new point 5' about the signatory notes for the Second Sons, the dreaming of Barristan Selmy or the 'second killing of his father. I am also a believer of 'Tyrion is a Targ' theory but I am not sure he is the son of Aerys II..., he also could be Rhaegar's son (and therefore Jon's brother)!

More here:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102787-aerys-spurned-cersei-because-of-tyrion/

And there: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97382-tyrions-paternity-re-visited/

Oh, and I am convinced Tyrion will ride Viserion, not Rhaegal, check here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102076-danys-dragonriders-tpatq-spoilers-with-the-improved-op/, this in particular (Viserion's hatching):

Quote

And for Tyrion as a dragon himself:

Quote

Contrary to what many people think, I find the bolded part pointing at Tyrion being also a Dragon. A big shadow is a recurrent description of dragons characteristics in GRRM's stories, especially when they fly under the sun. Also, as mentioned above, for me the snarling conveys both the ideas of a ferocious animal (e.g. a direwolf, a lion... or a dragon) showing its teeth and growling, or of something entangling like a snake... Or a dragon's tail? In addition, the very fact that Tyrion is neither old nor young, neither true nor false (if indeed Tyrion has Targ blood, it would either come from a female line or bastardry, hence not legitimate), neither bright nor dark (Tyrion is very much a grey character, and not fuelled by magic nor religion), makes me feel that the hidden message of Moqorro's dream is that Tyrion is a dragon, but nobody realises it because the other six attract the focus of all observers.

I also find the number of dragons mentioned, six (old + young + true + false + bright + dark) very interesting with regard to what the Quiet Isle Elder Brother said about Rhaegar's rubies:

Quote

The six dragons found would be the old, young, true, false, bright and dark ones ; the seventh still unfound (amidst sounds like ​in a mist, i.e. hidden) would be Tyrion.

Last, there is also this theory about a more 'classic' origin of Targ blood in the Lannister family, here: http://asoiaf.wester...ers-and-plumms/

Well dragon's have shadows and dragons have shadows. Jon's shadow at the wall when speaking to Mel. But Martin uses shadow so often it's hard to limit it's use. Barristan the White shadow Ch. 2 Dance. Drogon The Winged shadow Ch 2 Dance. Coldhands shadowed by his hooded cloak Dance ch. 4. The Stalking shadows, Shadow Binders, (Of note Dany has her own Shadow Binder), Ghost referred to as a White Shadow by Jon a direct parallel to Dany's comment about Selmy, Ghost could also be considered a sort of personal guard, one which Jon left behind. Stannis and Mel's giant shadows cast against the wall Ch 10. Dance. Mel Referred to as the Red Shadow in Dance ch 10. Stannis Shadow shrinks to 1/4 it's original hight. "The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice 20 feet tall" Jon Snow Ch. 28 Dance. (Dany is sometimes referred to as the moon, the moon has also been associated with the birth of Dragons.) Mel Dance 31. Great winged shadows in her vision. Jon is also referred to as a shadow in the vision or a shadow half hidden. Cersei refers to Tyrion as a creature of shadow in Dance. The Others are referred to as shadows.

The problem with shadows is they can have a lot of meanings in the books. And Martin uses them in different ways, Asha fighting shadows in near Deepwood, the shadow war etc...

6 dragons and Tyrion, 7 and 3 appear to be a thematic arc in the series but I don't know, the numbers are heavily repeated though.

6 rubies tied to the 6 dragons is interesting. Each of the 6 dragons has a counterpart or opposite and they are paired which indicates multiple meanings. Old and Young, true and false, bright and dark. Interesting enough the Vows of the Watch has 6 I statements. Three stating what you will not do, and 3 stating what you are, and then the pledge. But you have a problem with the 6 dragons, how many are actually going to be around? Hell one of them is already listed as false. So that's really only 5.

You only got 1 Ruby found, Dany. Aegon could be a garnet for all I know, and Bloodraven appears all but dead. Martin is also going to have a hard time explaining the dragon has 3 heads being 6 or 7 secret Targaryens. At the time of RR there were 6 Targaryens, Tyrion would of been 7. So it could be a reference to that period if you apply the Tyrion theory. But a false dragon is not really a dragon is it? So you are back down to 6. You know it's all kinds of messed up because you can add for certain periods and subtract for deaths. It's inconsistent. Currently Jon, Dany, Aegon, Tyrion, Bloodraven are part of it. So people keep trying to add to the mix. None of it adds up to 3 heads. Tyrion appears to have two, which really seems to indicate he is torn between two things, which repeats in theme.

Midst means in the center of it, it is not a reference or metaphor for mist and fits perfectly with the vision.

In his dream of the battle it does not say what he was fighting rather just two people. He is also stuck in the midst of two people. Selmy and Bittersteel which is currently where Tyrion finds himself. Note midst was used again there. He is in the middle of it and it could be he unites the two sides.

In Dance Tyrion II, Tyrion does in fact know that Selmy is with Dany, he and the cheesemonger discuss it and Bittersteel before he has the dream.

[Jô Maltese]

(...)

The problem with shadows is they can have a lot of meanings in the books. And Martin uses them in different ways, Asha fighting shadows in near Deepwood, the shadow war etc...

(...)

Dragons are not suggested by shadow alone, but by their casting a large shadow. This is the case for Tyrion, more than once actually (and for Jon as well incidently).

(...)

6 rubies tied to the 6 dragons is interesting. Each of the 6 dragons has a counterpart or opposite and they are paired which indicates multiple meanings. Old and Young, true and false, bright and dark. Interesting enough the Vows of the Watch has 6 I statements. Three stating what you will not do, and 3 stating what you are, and then the pledge. But you have a problem with the 6 dragons, how many are actually going to be around? Hell one of them is already listed as false. So that's really only 5.

You only got 1 Ruby found, Dany. Aegon could be a garnet for all I know, and Bloodraven appears all but dead. Martin is also going to have a hard time explaining the dragon has 3 heads being 6 or 7 secret Targaryens. At the time of RR there were 6 Targaryens, Tyrion would of been 7. So it could be a reference to that period if you apply the Tyrion theory. But a false dragon is not really a dragon is it? So you are back down to 6. You know it's all kinds of messed up because you can add for certain periods and subtract for deaths. It's inconsistent. Currently Jon, Dany, Aegon, Tyrion, Bloodraven are part of it. So people keep trying to add to the mix. None of it adds up to 3 heads. Tyrion appears to have two, which really seems to indicate he is torn between two things, which repeats in theme.

(...)

I feel very much like you, sensing that there is a meaning behind those 6 rubies found and 1 missing, but I can't settle on a steady explanation despite some convincing theories on this forum (I am not buying stillborn Rhaego as a ruby though). Are the rubies Targaryens issued from the Aerys and his wife line (tPtWP prophecy)? Are they just Dragonseeds as per tPatQ? Are they just Dragons (Targs)? Are they just magical people / artefacts (rubies seem to be associated with magic)? Are they Rhaegar's children (after all Robert managed to have 16 children in 16 years...)? For all we know, at the beginning of the series, the living Targs are: Viserys, Daenaris, Jon and Aemon. Then you have Bloodraven - who arguably is not really alive, and Aegon who is arguably 'only' a Blackfyre... 6 dragons here. From the Aerys line, we have Rhaegar, Viserys, Danny, Aegon, Rhaenys, Jon... Six again. Old and Young, True and False, Bright and Dark. Six... The war of the 5 kings that is actually a war of 5 kings and a queen ; six. But we are talking of Westeros, the continent of the SEVEN kingdoms, the SEVEN gods, so we are missing one and for me everything points at Tyrion being the missing link.

(...)

Midst means in the center of it, it is not a reference or metaphor for mist and fits perfectly with the vision.

In his dream of the battle it does not say what he was fighting rather just two people. He is also stuck in the midst of two people. Selmy and Bittersteel which is currently where Tyrion finds himself. Note midst was used again there. He is in the middle of it and it could be he unites the two sides.

(...)

I know what 'midst' mean, but I still stick to my feeling that 'in the midst of all' sounds like 'in the mist of all'...

(...)

In Dance Tyrion II, Tyrion does in fact know that Selmy is with Dany, he and the cheesemonger discuss it and Bittersteel before he has the dream.

Fair enough, I had forgotten about that.

[Modesty Lannister]

I do believe Tyrion can be a Targaryen due to the following reasons:

1. He has white blond hair.

2. He has mismatched green (Lannister, like his mother Johanna who was Tywin's cousin) and black (Targaryen, deep purple, but deformed like the rest of Tyrion)

3. He was born deformed like Dany's son who was sacrificed by a witch (descriptions of Tyrion and Dany's newborn son are very similar and resemble descriptions of newly born dragons)

4. He has dragon dreams.

5. He is intelligent and bookish like Rhaegar was until he read something that pushed him towards learning how to fight.

6. He has a "dragon's temper" like all Targaryens.

I do not think a theory that Tywin left the position of the Hand of the mad king because Jamie became a member of King's Guard plausible, because it was Cersei who arranged that and not the mad king. It seems more plausible that Tywin fled King's Landing to spare his beloved and bossy wife from further "advances" by the king after she became pregnant. His hatred of Tyrion cannot be explained by Tyrion's deformity alone or the loss of wife. Tywin is rational. I believe he kept Tyrion alive as his own hostage against the mad king who effectively kept Jamie hostage. I see no reason for Tywin to insist that he had no proof that Tyrion was his son if there wasn't any doubt regarding the identity of Tyrion's father. I also believe Tywin kept Tyrion alive after king Robert's accession to the throne as a trump card in case of Targaryen return (I saved your kin despite all). Also, if not Tyrion, who can be the third dragon? Dany and Jon are the obvious two. Dany will probably not survive in the end because she is barren and RR Martin will not put a barren queen onto the throne after the whole kerfuffle. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and will not become king for that goes against his nature. So, that leaves us with Tyrion and Sansa, thus ending the song of ice and fire with a Stark and a Targaryen, as queen and king.

[Jô Maltese]

I do believe Tyrion can be a Targaryen due to the following reasons:

1. He has white blond hair.

2. He has mismatched green (Lannister, like his mother Johanna who was Tywin's cousin) and black (Targaryen, deep purple, but deformed like the rest of Tyrion)

3. He was born deformed like Dany's son who was sacrificed by a witch (descriptions of Tyrion and Dany's newborn son are very similar and resemble descriptions of newly born dragons)

4. He has dragon dreams.

5. He is intelligent and bookish like Rhaegar was until he read something that pushed him towards learning how to fight.

6. He has a "dragon's temper" like all Targaryens.

I do not think a theory that Tywin left the position of the Hand of the mad king because Jamie became a member of King's Guard plausible, because it was Cersei who arranged that and not the mad king. It seems more plausible that Tywin fled King's Landing to spare his beloved and bossy wife from further "advances" by the king after she became pregnant. His hatred of Tyrion cannot be explained by Tyrion's deformity alone or the loss of wife. Tywin is rational. I believe he kept Tyrion alive as his own hostage against the mad king who effectively kept Jamie hostage. I see no reason for Tywin to insist that he had no proof that Tyrion was his son if there wasn't any doubt regarding the identity of Tyrion's father. I also believe Tywin kept Tyrion alive after king Robert's accession to the throne as a trump card in case of Targaryen return (I saved your kin despite all). Also, if not Tyrion, who can be the third dragon? Dany and Jon are the obvious two. Dany will probably not survive in the end because she is barren and RR Martin will not put a barren queen onto the throne after the whole kerfuffle. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and will not become king for that goes against his nature. So, that leaves us with Tyrion and Sansa, thus ending the song of ice and fire with a Stark and a Targaryen, as queen and king.

:agree: First time I see someone so close to my own beliefs (not convinced by the Tyrion-hostage though, I think Tywin spared him because Tyrion is still a Lannister by name, and by blood from Joanna). Welcome to the forum.

[TheSnape]

Tyrion's a Lannister.

He has a lot of Tywin in him, but it's not Tywin that Tyrion reminds me of.

Nope, Tyrion reminds me of Tywin's dad, Tytos. Tytos was a nice guy. And Tyrion's a nice guy- he has the strongest moral compass of all the characters there, Jaime included. Tyrion is Tytos-but growing up in a much harsher environment, and having a much harder life, which is what made Tyrion competent.

If Tyrion had been Tytos' eldest son and heir, he would be exactly like Tytos.

[trepesoa]

I'd be happy with the Tyrion/Sansa ending as the resolution of Fire and Ice. I also think it's possible that Tywin doesn't kill Tyrion simply becuase Joanna made him promise not too, like Lyanna did Ned. We'll never know that answer. I'm not certain that Danny is barren any longer. The heat of riding Drogon may have aided in healing her and it sure seems like she had a miscarraige on the Dothraki sea. I think Westeros will need a pure Tag lineage if the dragons are going to have any chance of staging a comback as a species and Danny and Aegon could rule together (certainly Aegon has the best upbringing to make him a good ruler).

Maybe I missed something though. Where does Martin tell us Jon was born before the ToJ?

[Modesty Lannister]

To TheSnape (btw, love the name): If Cersei gave birth to three children sired by Jamie, why wouldn't Joanna do the same to Tywin. The Mad King didn't love his wife. That's what Baristen Selmy said. He liked (maybe loved) Joanna who had spent a lot of time in court until she married. Why would The Mad King choose a Tywin boy as his Hand? Maybe because he made a deal with him? The highest power in the land in exchange for a huge coverup. That would make Tywin smile and he did at his wedding.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I do believe that Tyrion might be a Targaryen. But... if he is... Tywin surely didn't know.

[naik2902]

I think tyrion is tywin son but tyrion may be having targaryen blood from his mother side. May b aegon v (egg) is great grandfather of Joanna. Same thing applies to Jon snow who also might b having dragon blood from lyanna. May b neds mother is descendent of aegon v. I hope we will get to know about it in martins she wolves of winter fell.

I think to bcom one of d head of dragon tyrion doesn't need to become son of mad king. May b he already have targ blood from Joanna.

[Modesty Lannister]

Also this means Jon has a great chance of riding a Dragon of some kind.

The more I think on it, the more I'm wondering if Jon would ride or skinchange into a dragon.

[Crowhive]

I always find this theory astonishing.

Firstly, that a man like Tywin would stay Aerys' Hand for 8 years after Aerys possibly raped his beloved wife; and secondly that if such an event took place nobody in the entire kingdom heard so much as a whisper about it.

Even though his Kingsguards certainly heard when Aerys raped his own wife.

I think Tywin is a man who would not want a secret like that to get out, for his own honor/power's sake. Something like that would tarnish the good Lannister name. Also, Tywin is calculating enough to bide his time for 8 years, stewing in dull anger, until the perfect time to strike was presented.

[Modesty Lannister]

Good stuff, especially your 'new point 5' about the signatory notes for the Second Sons, the dreaming of Barristan Selmy or the 'second killing of his father. I am also a believer of 'Tyrion is a Targ' theory but I am not sure he is the son of Aerys II..., he also could be Rhaegar's son (and therefore Jon's brother).

I don't see any textual evidence that Rhaegar could be Tyrion's father whereas the books have plenty of textual hints (some people like the word foreshadowing, I think it's overused in this forum) that Aerys II was indeed the father of at least one out of three Joanna's children. Tywin's speech when he explains Tyrion why he spared his life goes even further and hints Tywin knew he was not his son, but he was still his kin, so he stopped short of becoming a kinslayer. Now, the situation is reversed, if Tyrion is not Tywin's son, he committed the act of kinslaying rather than patricide, but the act is still there and the curse with it. The more I think about the final riders, the more I do not think Tyrion is going to ride. He is a dwarf. He was not made for riding a dragon with his short legs. Rather, I think he is going to figure out how to tame the dragons and construct their saddles. So, he'll be Leonardo da Vinci to Dany's Cesare Borgia. Of course, his Targ blood will allow him to approach the dragons and work with them, but I don't think he was made for flying into battle. Tyrion's weapon is his brain, not his physique.

[Modesty Lannister]

I do believe that Tyrion might be a Targaryen. But... if he is... Tywin surely didn't know.

I disagree. When Genna talks about Tywin and his smiles, she puts two of his smiles in the same sentence - the first when he married Joanna and the second when he became Hand. So, these two events are interlinked. My assumption is that Tywin couldn't have any children - hence his insistence on Tyrion's ability to "plant seed" into Sansa's womb. Tywin knows only too well that Tyrion is not impotent. People read it as if Tywin insists on Tyrion raping Sansa until she is with child. The same people insist that, if Tyrion is the son of Aerys somehow Joanna had to be raped. Subsequently that would mean that Tywin, whose wife was raped, insists Tyrion does the same. It's not logical. What is logical is for a sterile man to be worried about sterility. So, if Tywin was indeed incalpable of having children, there was no other way to create his dynasty, but to team up with his friend and cousin Joanna who has spent years in court with princess (later queen) Rhaella. Joanna was probably Aerys's mistress long before she married Tywin. So, Tywin allowed Joanna and Aerys to continue their affair without hindrance and became Hand and a reward. Two smiles in one sentence.

EDIT: Also, there is a tunnel, leading from the TotH to a brothel. When asked if it was Tywin who built it, GRRM said it was an interesting idea. Was Tywin using it regularly? It seems so, judging from Shae's presence in his bed. Maybe Tywin forbid Tyrion to take his whore to KL in order to prevent him from discovering the passage while he was the acting HotK.

[sprongi of meatball]

By the way, it is said by Daenerys that she or the Targaryens in general did not suffer from illnesses, as she can walk through crowds of victims of the pale mare and not be affected. So the Targaryens cannot get disease.

This is also proved by Tyrion, because if he was a Targaryen he would not suffer from diseases, as shown by when he fell into the greyscale river, he did not suffer from greyscale, but Griff (who pulled him out did, suggesting that Tyrion is either really lucky, Griff is really unlucky or that Tyrion is immune to such diseases like a Targaryen.

Personally, I choose the latter.

[The Dragons Hand]

I'm torn on this.

On one hand it makes sense as to why Tyrion is so messed up (Dwarf, dichotomous eyes.) and the idea of him being one of the heads of the dragon and Orys Baratheon 2.0 is pretty cool.

But on the other hand it somewhat disregards the Tywin-Tyrion relationship.