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Iotun

Tyrion as a Targaryen

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He inherited Tywin's cunning and really doesn't show any likeness to Aerys...

But is "cunning" a heritable trait? I think it more of a learned trait. Nature v Nurture, I guess. Besides Tywin can't be the only cunning man in Westeros, I'm sure there are others but we don't think Tyrion is their son, do we? I mean, Sam and Tyrion both love to read, does that make them blood-related?

If Aerys had forced himself on Tywin's wife I'm sure his first reaction would have been to give her moon tea, Westeros is no stranger to abortion and Tryion's eyes are black and green, green eyes are a Lannister trait, he also has blond hair. And the dragon dreams seem likely to be just part of a childhood phase which he's long since grown out of.

I think Tywin doesn't know, or if he does, he only suspects. I also think Tywin told his wife he wouldn't hurt the child because GRRM made a point to tell us *more than once* that Tywin was ruled by his wife ;-)

Imo, when he tells us something *more than once* it is because he wants us to remember it.

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Tryion's eyes are black and green, green eyes are a Lannister trait, he also has blond hair.

True, but he'd have Lannister blood either way; Joanna was related to Tywin. He may have gotten the Lannister aspects of his looks from his mother.

(I think both Targ looks and Lannister looks are recessive in general, fwiw. Jaime and Cersei have the classic Lannister look because both their parents looked like that, same for Jaime and Cersei's children. Lannister looks may be partially--but not completely--dominant over Targ.)

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However, it is notable that the only people who have had dragon dreams were targs. Name one person, who suffered these dreams besides Tyrion who is not targ.

First, I think you exaggerate by saying that Tyrion "suffers" from dragon dreams. It's not like these are nightmares he's having. These are just normal dreams, as far as we know, and they are easily attributable to his fascination with dragons.

Second, is it your contention that no non-Targ is capable of dreaming about dragons? Is it literally impossible for their brains think of dragons while they're sleeping?

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Yes, there is a fair amount of evidence. My own list would be:

- Tywin (who is in a better position to judge) suspects Tyrion is not his own.

- White-blond hair.

- Is not the only Targ to have mismatched eyes (Shiera Seastar has green & blue).

- Is not the only Targ to have been born with a tail (Rhaego).

- Other Targs have had miscellaneous deformities (Maego the Monstrous with his two heads; Bloodraven with his albinism & huge birthmark)

- Some black eyes are really purple, if the light is bright enough.

- has a "morbid fascination with dragons" GOT-Ch13.

- has a morbid fascination with fire, including wildfire.

- seems to lack fear in the face of fire.

(Also, I recall someone mentioning that he likes his meat burnt, though I cannot recall this myself from my own memory).

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If Aerys had forced himself on Tywin's wife I'm sure his first reaction would have been to give her moon tea, Westeros is no stranger to abortion

True, but then again, maybe Joanna did drink moon tea. Perhaps that's why Tyrion is deformed.

We don't know what kind of dwarfism he has, but typical dwarfism is hereditary aside from very, very rare mutations, and it's a dominant, always heterozygous trait (two dwarf alleles results in death). However, I doubt Tyrion has typical dwarfism as a ) he is also discolored and has twisted legs - traits not related to standard dwarfism, and b ) there are no dwarfs to speak of in the Lannister history.

Second, any medicine that affects conditions in the womb could certainly cause him to be crippled, discolored, and/or malformed. He didn't develop correctly!

Now, Westeros isn't Earth and genetics, syndromes, even diseases that prevail here don't necessarily exist there (case in point: Shireen). But regardless, Targaryen deformities are, as has been pointed out, very common! The results of inbreeding, presumably. Tyrion may just be the most recent in a long line of deformed Targaryens. And Aerys obviously got the short straw in relation to the inbreeding, so....

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In my opinion, if Tywin had thought that Tyrion was a Targaryen, he would have had him killed. The fact that he was born deformed and "killed" Joanna was already enough to make Tywin despise him.

Instead, he let Tyrion have a place in court, gave him something of a job running Casterly Rock's drains, and even assigned him to be acting Hand of the King when he was up north. I would say that any hatred he has stems from the fact that one of his children, from his supposedly perfect family, is a whoring dwarf.

Besides which, as Genna remarks, Tyrion is far more similar to Tywin than either of his siblings. Jaime is nowhere near ruthless enough, and Cersei is far too stupid.

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Lady Genna tells Jaime that he has the traits of his uncles (Gerion,Tyg, and Kevan) but that it is Tyrion that is Tywin’s son.

There is something curious with the Lannister family tree not indicating who was wed to Tytos Lannister and therefore be Tywin’s mother. It’s possible that Jaime could have the traits of his grandmother that showed up in his uncles. Could Tytos’s wife have been a Targaryen (perhaps one of Aegon’s sisters, Rhae or Daella)?

I may be thinking like a conspiracy nut but consider this scenario. Aerys succeeds his father Jaehaerys to the throne and immediately makes his boyhood friend Tywin Lannister his Hand. Aerys already having an infant son Rhaegar by Rhaella (his sister) who he wasn’t romantically in love with felt the urge to pursue the woman he truly wanted, Tywin’s wife Joanna. While Tywin is away on the Kings’s behalf, Areys has relations with Joanna and from the union are born Cercie and Jaime. Joanna never tells Tywin the truth. Tywin wants to believe they are his children, but in time he begins to have his suspicions. This could also be a reason why Tywin wanted to teach Tyrion such a graphic lesson regarding his love for Tysha.

If Cercei and Jaime were a product of Aerys, it would answer why they have similar features and traits of Targaryens, a natural tendency toward incest, and the different demeanors between Cercie (compassionless, incompetent) and Jamie (trying to do good, competent). It could also be a reason why Aerys wanted Jamie (his son) to be one of his Kingsguard at such a young age and why he didn’t want Cercei (his daughter) to wed Rhaegar.

Lady Genna tells Jaime “Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” That Tywin has denied Tyrion any affection has more to do with the only woman that he loved gave him twins that were another mans and that she was taken from him when Tyrion was born. That both Cercei and Jaime had the attributes that he would want for his own children while his true son was born a dwarf complicated any feeling that Tywin would have had for Tyrion. Any affection that Tywin may have had was torn from him because of the blame that he put on Tyrion for Joanna’s death and the searing contempt that he had to endure while being the Hand of the King that had defiled his marriage. Tywin transferred his caring towards the “perfect” children of the wife he loved so much while also transferring the blame for his dead wife and her own infidelity towards his own true offspring.

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Black’s not a real eye-color. It’s just a very dark brown, which tends to be called black because in some lighting conditions because it doesn’t reflect back enough light to get a good idea of what hue it is.

Human eye color ranges from the very palest shades of blues (perceived as grey) all the way through the very darkest of browns (sometimes perceived as black) in a continuous grading of hues.

The saturation of the color diminishes with age, much as that of the hair does (although not so strongly), and for precisely the same reason. Additionally, some human eye coloration is structural rather than caused by pigment, such as the blue of a blue bird, which is caused by refraction due to the structure of the feather, not by pigment.

In a very few individuals, nearly always albinos, the eyes appear red from a complete lack of pigment as the color of the underlying red blood cells reflects out. People who are said to have violet eyes actually have purple not violet eyes; that is, they have dark blue eyes with a bit of blood-reflected red mixed in. Similarly for lavender or lilac eyes, which are paler blue with the same unusual admixture of blood-reflected red light mixing in.

In 2008, we learned that all people with blue eyes share a single remote common ancestor, where the mutation first (and uniquely) occurred some 6–10,000 years ago. It is quite possible that Martin simply posits that a new mutation took place in his world where violet, purple, lavender, or lilac eye-coloring actually exists.

It used to be that human eye-color would be described as being a three-values system centering on grey/blue, green/hazel, and amber/brown/black, and involving simple Mendelian genetics of a single gene or two. However, we now know this to be not at all true, and the actual genetics are much more subtle and interesting. There are at least a dozen or so genes related to human eye-color, and all interact in complex, non-Mendelian ways. Read this recent article from the May 2010 issue of PLoS Genetics for fascinating details about recent discoveries about all this.

So no, Tyrion doesn’t actually have “one black eye”. The open question is what color that eye really is. Given his overall pale complexion, it is quite unlikely to be the dark brown most people perceived to have black eyes really have. Not impossible, but very unlikely. It is much more likely to be the same deep, dark indigo / blue-‘violet’ found in Darkstar’s eyes.

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Let me throw this out there even though there is no way to substantiae this,is it possible that all 3 Lannister children are tygarean through thier mother.We don't anything about her but all 3 show Targ traits.When Tyrion meets Dany and Ser Barristan I think we should get some answers about whether there is any Targ blood mixed in with the Lannisters.There mother would have been 1/2 Targ at best.

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Let me throw this out there even though there is no way to substantiae this,is it possible that all 3 Lannister children are tygarean through thier mother.We don't anything about her but all 3 show Targ traits.When Tyrion meets Dany and Ser Barristan I think we should get some answers about whether there is any Targ blood mixed in with the Lannisters.There mother would have been 1/2 Targ at best.

Joanna is a Lannister and there's no doubt that all three are hers. If they're Targaryen it'd be through their father.

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Black’s not a real eye-color. It’s just a very dark brown, which tends to be called black because in some lighting conditions because it doesn’t reflect back enough light to get a good idea of what hue it is.

Human eye color ranges from the very palest shades of blues (perceived as grey) all the way through the very darkest of browns (sometimes perceived as black) in a continuous grading of hues.

The saturation of the color diminishes with age, much as that of the hair does (although not so strongly), and for precisely the same reason. Additionally, some human eye coloration is structural rather than caused by pigment, such as the blue of a blue bird, which is caused by refraction due to the structure of the feather, not by pigment.

In a very few individuals, nearly always albinos, the eyes appear red from a complete lack of pigment as the color of the underlying red blood cells reflects out. People who are said to have violet eyes actually have purple not violet eyes; that is, they have dark blue eyes with a bit of blood-reflected red mixed in. Similarly for lavender or lilac eyes, which are paler blue with the same unusual admixture of blood-reflected red light mixing in.

In 2008, we learned that all people with blue eyes share a single remote common ancestor, where the mutation first (and uniquely) occurred some 6–10,000 years ago. It is quite possible that Martin simply posits that a new mutation took place in his world where violet, purple, lavender, or lilac eye-coloring actually exists.

It used to be that human eye-color would be described as being a three-values system centering on grey/blue, green/hazel, and amber/brown/black, and involving simple Mendelian genetics of a single gene or two. However, we now know this to be not at all true, and the actual genetics are much more subtle and interesting. There are at least a dozen or so genes related to human eye-color, and all interact in complex, non-Mendelian ways. Read this recent article from the May 2010 issue of PLoS Genetics for fascinating details about recent discoveries about all this.

So no, Tyrion doesn’t actually have “one black eye”. The open question is what color that eye really is. Given his overall pale complexion, it is quite unlikely to be the dark brown most people perceived to have black eyes really have. Not impossible, but very unlikely. It is much more likely to be the same deep, dark indigo / blue-‘violet’ found in Darkstar’s eyes.

What about grey? Jon has grey eyes that are dark enough to look black.

I think that Tyrion is definitely Tywin's though.

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I believe Tyrion is Tywin's only legit child, The twins are Aery's by Joanna. I am so sure of it.

I think all three are probably Tywin's, but the twins make a mountain of more sense than Tyrion. I have no idea why people want Tyrion to be a Targ, but ignore the actually pretty decent circumstantial evidence that the twins are Targs.

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I think all three are probably Tywin's, but the twins make a mountain of more sense than Tyrion. I have no idea why people want Tyrion to be a Targ, but ignore the actually pretty decent circumstantial evidence that the twins are Targs.

Yeah, in the end it really does not matter but I think it is some poetic pattern. Just think of it, Aery's the mad king was succeeded by Robert the Userper who unknowingly married his daughter (who confessed to be in love with his son Rheagar and possibly one of her brothers) and who carried on a secret romance with her known brother (Aery's other son) and birthed two kings of Targ blood.

The Targs are well known for incest. Cersei was always sexually attracted to Jaime but also to Rheagar who might afterall be her brother too.

Tyrion gets the shaft again.

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Yeah, in the end it really does not matter but I think it is some poetic pattern. Just think of it, Aery's the mad king was succeeded by Robert the Userper who unknowingly married his daughter (who confessed to be in love with his son Rheagar and possibly one of her brothers) and who carried on a secret romance with her known brother (Aery's other son) and birthed two kings of Targ blood.

The Targs are well known for incest. Cersei was always sexually attracted to Jaime but also to Rheagar who might afterall be her brother too.

Tyrion gets the shaft again.

Well, that. The Greek tragedy of Jaime unknowingly murdering his own father. Cersei's arousal at watching the Tower of the Hand burn down. The quirk of Tywin's mortal political enemy fathering two perfect golden twins and Tywin himself fathering a deformed child. The irony that Robert worked so hard to knock the Targs off the throne and inadvertently stocked it with Targ bastards.

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Trying to be very pragmatic:

If the white strands in Tyrion's hair and the unusual eye colours had so much meaning for future developments, would the HBO team not have tried to realize those important hints through mask? Would they not at least have added some white-blonde strands to Dinklage's hair? GRRM himself might have suggested that if it were soooo important for the storyline.

I think it would be shame to diminish that great tragic father-son conflict. Tywin and Tyrion is one of the most fascinating character interactions.

Though Aerys as Cersei's and Jaime's father - that would be wonderful tragic irony.

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I think all three are probably Tywin's, but the twins make a mountain of more sense than Tyrion. I have no idea why people want Tyrion to be a Targ, but ignore the actually pretty decent circumstantial evidence that the twins are Targs.

You know, its kind of offensive when people go on about others 'wanting' Tyrion to be a Targ.

The fact is there is significantly more potential evidence for Tyrion than for the twins, though nearly all of it can be interpretated in other ways as well.

Like you, I think all three are probably Tywins', but the possibilitiy remains that Aerys fathered some of them.

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You know, its kind of offensive when people go on about others 'wanting' Tyrion to be a Targ.

The fact is there is significantly more potential evidence for Tyrion than for the twins, though nearly all of it can be interpretated in other ways as well.

Exactly. It is usually the people who say Tyrion is "for sure" not Aerys' son who use emotional arguments. It seems to me, they may be the ones were "wanting" rather than "suspecting" may play a role in their stated opinion.

I don't know if there is anything more to the suggestion, clearly made in ADWD, that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, but the hints (or red herrings, if you want) regarding Tyrion are considerably more played up (from AGOT on) than hints regarding Cersei and especially Jaime.

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Certainly, GRRM's hinting it. The man writes every word very carefully - he doesn't just throw random s*** down on a page. The only question that remains is whether it's just a tease or whether it's true.

Since the writers of the HBO show work with GRRM, I agree that it's useful to consider the choices they've made and ask whether the show has laid any groundwork for a future T = T revelation.

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Exactly. It is usually the people who say Tyrion is "for sure" not Aerys' son who use emotional arguments. It seems to me, they may be the ones were "wanting" rather than "suspecting" may play a role in their stated opinion.

I don't really "want" Tyrion to be "anything." I think that he "is" Tywin's son.

I don't know if there is anything more to the suggestion, clearly made in ADWD, that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, but the hints (or red herrings, if you want) regarding Tyrion are considerably more played up (from AGOT on) than hints regarding Cersei and especially Jaime.

All the more reason for the clues about Tyrion to be the distraction.

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