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Tyrion as a Targaryen

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I say if Tywin thought Tyrion is not his son, he would have killed him before or sent him to the NW. Ala Tarly. If Tyrionis Aerys's son I honestly can't come up with any possible explanation why Tywin let him live, or why didn't he just sent him to the NW. He was a dwarf and people were laughing at House Lannister because of him, caused Joanna's death, and on top of that maybe he is the result of a rape? I

This has been posed many times and answered as many.

Possibilities:

1. Tywin can't kill Tyrion unless he is certain Tyrion is not his, for fear of kinslaying.

2. If Tywin killed Tyrion, or sent him to the NW, and justified it due to Tyrion not being his, then that just confirms to the world both that Tywin has been cuckolded and that his beloved Joanna was unfaithful (regardless of whether she was raped or compliant). That is certain to cause justified derision of house Lannister and of Tywin personally. By comparision, derision at a dwarf child is just a case of not enough respect and can be punished or dealt with.

And about this, Genna said that Tyrion is Tywins son, not Jaime, she said when she told this to Tywin, he didn't speak with her for quite a time.

blah blah blah nature vs nurture. You think if there is anything dodgy going on Genna really knows about it? She's just telling Tywin that Tyrion is the one that has taken up Tywin's mantle of cunning ruthlessness. Cersei isn't smart enough (nor has had opportunity at that stage really) and Jaime has never needed to. Both are profoundly unsuited for the difficult tasks of rulership.

And Tywin did tell Tyrion he is his son when he was counting on him. Being a dwarf automaticly disapoints Tywin and when his children disapoint him he tells them they are not his.

True. But your point argues against you too.

Tywin told Tyrion many times over his whole life that he doubted Tyrion was his son. He told him he was once, when he needed Tyrion to do something for him that only Tyrion was capable of.

Jaime on the other hand was told he was not Tywin's son only once, and it was expressly at a time when he had refused his father and disappointed him.

I say the morbid fascination is a bit too much. At my first read i didn't even notice he did care about them at all. But the Maesters are sure interested in dragons as well, etc etc, and they are not Targs. Dragons are the strongest piece in the game (alá cywiss) and Tyrion ultimatly wants to be powerful and wants to have the strongest pieces. I interpreted it as his powerhungriness.

It is clear from book one that Tyrion is fascinated by dragons appart from his dreams. He is supposedly the most widely read person in Westeros outside the Maestorship (and perhaps inside as well) and IIRC we specifcally see him reading books about dragons (was that something he asked of the winterfell 'library'?) and having knowledge about dragons. Despite that 'fact' that dragons died out before he was born.

And he has deeper experiences in amongst the old dragon bones that other characters.

No offense, but you not noticing something just means that you didn't notice, not that it was not a clear 'clue'.

Tommen has also white-blond hair, so that haircolor is either part of the Lannister gene, or all the three are Aerys's children. His deformation can be because his parents (Joanna and Tywin) were cousins as well. I am no expert in dwarfism, but I know that in the case of cousin mariages the chance that the kid will have some deformation (physically, mentally) is bigger.

Children often have lighter coloured hair than later, so I'm not sure how much we can go by Tommen's colouring. (Someone posted that Tommens hair has darkened to proper Lannister gold, but I don't recall that - any confirmation yes or no? The Wiki says he has golden hair?) My sister was a very fine white-blond at birth, dark blond by around 10 and quite a dark brown by around 20. Only one of my siblings was actually born with dark hair, but all are very dark brown now (naturally).

Tyrions hair though is described in at least one place as a mix of yellow and white-gold strands

tywin was said to look like the real King compared to Aerys as well. Jaime was said to look like a king as well, I don't remember who said that, one of them Starks at Winterfell, either Jon or Bran. And he can be a king, if the seven kingdoms separate, no need to have targ genes for that

Tywin and Jaime are said to look like kings by other people because they are tall, good looking, powerful and regal. In other words, they look like kings ought to look, not actually like kings do look.

Tyrion is described as throwing the shadow of a king. In otherwords something metaphorical, that isn't plain to see.

That is very different indeed.

I say the evidences poining to Jaime and Cersei are around the same amount as the ones pointing at tyrion. Not tywins son was said both to Jaime and tyrion, like a king was said about both jaime and tyrion. Tyrion might have white-blond hair, but so does the twins kid, Tommen. tyrion has interest is dragons, Cersei is obsessed with fire as well and she found rhaegar the prettiest and is obsessed with pretty silver haired man (Aurene Waters), tyrion might physically deformed, but the twins kid Joffrey seems similar to vis or some other mad targs (you can say he deforemd emotionally).

Not even close to the same amount.

The 'not my son's are in very different circumstances indeed, and have quite different meanings.

Like a king is again, a very different sort of comparison, with very different meanings.

Tyrion has the white-blond not-lannister, almost-targ hair, Tommen may or may not, I don't think so.

Tyrion has the mismatched eyes the same as Shiera Seastar, another Targ bastard from way back.

Tyrion is the only one actually interested in Dragons, and the only one we've heard about with Dragon dreams.

Cersei does have the fire thing. Much weaker, but Tyrion has the burned bacon thing (was the 'cannot stand the cold' comment only in the series or in the book as well?) and don't forget, it was him, not Cersei, that got wildfire back into play (though he doesn't seem to show any particular fascination for it).

The twins have twincest, though frankly I think that is pure narcisism and nothing to do with actual familial attraction.

Joffrey isn't insane, he's just Cersei with the controls loosed.

Cersei wanted Rhaegar as the prince she was promised, as did pretty much all the girls, nothing out of the ordinary there.

Did Tyrion also feel a sort of kinship with Jon, or was that the other way around?

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I don't know if we can still call Tyrion one the more positive characters. He is very much a gray character with both good and bad sides - there are plenty of non-Targaryens who are more "positive". And Aerys and Viserys were not positive at all.

I had forgotten that one. It's a very small thing, but I agree it would stand out on a re-read should Tyrion indeed turn out to be Targ.

Moqorro's remarks:

It's a small thing too, because it can be interpreted in several ways, but it makes one wonder if the "and you" is including him with the "dragons bright and dark" or merely pointing out that he is smack in the middle of Jon, Aegon and Dany. Tyrion's "big shadow" is referenced again, too.

Oh wow! How did I miss that.

You know, the flames never lie, only the people interpreting them (well, Mel so far) mess up. That sounds pretty definitive that Tyrion is in the midst of the dragons, though not clear if he is one of them or not. By why see Tyrion within a crowd of Dragons if he is not one of them? I mean, there are plenty of possibilities, but that would seem to be an inconsistent thing for the flames to show?

I think I have to revise my estimate up to at least 40% T-T.

To be honest, the main thing against T=T is 'just because'.

How would anyone make the argument that Tyrion is actually a Lannister, if we turned this around?

- The status quo? Everyone thinks he is therefore he is? So Jon must be a bastard...

- He acts as a Lannister? Nature vs nurture, and he is at least half Lannister anyway.

- Tywin said so? Only once, when Tywin needed something from him that only he could provide. The rest of the time Tywin is clearly at odds with the notion.

What else?

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Moqorro's remarks:

> “Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?”

> “Dragons,” Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a

> trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the

> faith of R’hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. “Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

> And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

It's a small thing too, because it can be interpreted in several ways, but it makes one wonder if the "and you" is including him with the "dragons bright and dark" or merely pointing out that he is smack in the middle of Jon, Aegon and Dany. Tyrion's "big shadow" is referenced again, too.

I had the same thought. But it does not necessarily follow. Logically, "And you [period]" is just another complete thought in response to the question "what do you see in those flames?"

Nonetheless, I do think that Tyrion is in some sense a "dragon", regardless of whether or not he is a Targ bastard.

I have mentioned elsewhere the theory that Tyrion may be based on the norse myth of Fafnir, the greedy dwarf, who kills his father, and then is transformed into a dragon to guard his father's golden hoard. I'm not sure in what sense Tyrion will transform, but I suspect warging may be involved.

My other thought regarding Moqorro's prophesy is that the young, dark, false dragons are all Dany's dragons, whereas the old, bright, true dragons are ones that were born at Summerhall.

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I had the same thought. But it does not necessarily follow. Logically, "And you [period]" is just another complete thought in response to the question "what do you see in those flames?"

Sure, but he is snarling in the midst of all, so he is definitely in amongst the dragons.

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Ah true you are right actually. My mistake there then. Well one less evidence to support the theory.

How old was Tyrion during the sack of King's Landing?

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How old was Tyrion during the sack of King's Landing?

IIRC he said in ADWD that he was 10 when Rhaegar died. From that alone we can conclude that he was 10 or (maybe) just turned 11 at the sack of KL.

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This has been posed many times and answered as many.

Possibilities:

1. Tywin can't kill Tyrion unless he is certain Tyrion is not his, for fear of kinslaying.

2. If Tywin killed Tyrion, or sent him to the NW, and justified it due to Tyrion not being his, then that just confirms to the world both that Tywin has been cuckolded and that his beloved Joanna was unfaithful (regardless of whether she was raped or compliant). That is certain to cause justified derision of house Lannister and of Tywin personally. By comparision, derision at a dwarf child is just a case of not enough respect and can be punished or dealt with.

That is not true. others even told tyrion that anyone else would just simply kill him, not many ppeople let dwars live even if he is their true son. no one would have doubted in tywin especially since he has two perfect kid. No one thinks that Sam is not Tarly's kid either just because he was sent to the NW.

blah blah blah nature vs nurture. You think if there is anything dodgy going on Genna really knows about it? She's just telling Tywin that Tyrion is the one that has taken up Tywin's mantle of cunning ruthlessness. Cersei isn't smart enough (nor has had opportunity at that stage really) and Jaime has never needed to. Both are profoundly unsuited for the difficult tasks of rulership.

I still see that pointing to that tyrionis Tywin's son. And yes I think she knows about it. She was Tywins fav and really close to him before she said to him that comment.

True. But your point argues against you too.

Tywin told Tyrion many times over his whole life that he doubted Tyrion was his son. He told him he was once, when he needed Tyrion to do something for him that only Tyrion was capable of.

Jaime on the other hand was told he was not Tywin's son only once, and it was expressly at a time when he had refused his father and disappointed him.

I don't think it argues. I said Tywin calls their kid not his own when they disappoint him. Tyrion being a dwarf always does, but when he needs him then he is called his son. I don't see how that argues against it.

It is clear from book one that Tyrion is fascinated by dragons appart from his dreams. He is supposedly the most widely read person in Westeros outside the Maestorship (and perhaps inside as well) and IIRC we specifcally see him reading books about dragons (was that something he asked of the winterfell 'library'?) and having knowledge about dragons. Despite that 'fact' that dragons died out before he was born.

And he has deeper experiences in amongst the old dragon bones that other characters.

No offense, but you not noticing something just means that you didn't notice, not that it was not a clear 'clue'.

Cersei wildfire fascination can be just as hard and obvious clue. I guess some people want to see one of it as more obvious than the other.

Children often have lighter coloured hair than later, so I'm not sure how much we can go by Tommen's colouring. (Someone posted that Tommens hair has darkened to proper Lannister gold, but I don't recall that - any confirmation yes or no? The Wiki says he has golden hair?) My sister was a very fine white-blond at birth, dark blond by around 10 and quite a dark brown by around 20. Only one of my siblings was actually born with dark hair, but all are very dark brown now (naturally).

Tyrions hair though is described in at least one place as a mix of yellow and white-gold strands

I know blond hair offent darkens (that is happened with my brother too), but since Tommen was written as someone with white-gold hair as well I don'T see tyrions hair color as a not lannister hair color. If it was really a Targ blond, it would be just a red siren, so again Tywin would have the proof right away he is not his, or there would be rumors flying around Aerys into Tywins wife+ one of Tywins kid has targ coloring in his hair. So far we didnT' hear anything like that going around. So if his hair is really targ hair color tywin has the proof. hence i don't thhink it is.

Tywin and Jaime are said to look like kings by other people because they are tall, good looking, powerful and regal. In other words, they look like kings ought to look, not actually like kings do look.

Tyrion is described as throwing the shadow of a king. In otherwords something metaphorical, that isn't plain to see.

That is very different indeed.

Being like a king still has nothing to do with being a targ. the Lannisters were king of Castery Rock, and tyrion is a kings name as well, if i remember correctly a lannister kings name.

Not even close to the same amount.

1.The 'not my son's are in very different circumstances indeed, and have quite different meanings.

2.Like a king is again, a very different sort of comparison, with very different meanings.

3.Tyrion has the white-blond not-lannister, almost-targ hair, Tommen may or may not, I don't think so.

4.Tyrion has the mismatched eyes the same as Shiera Seastar, another Targ bastard from way back.

5.Tyrion is the only one actually interested in Dragons, and the only one we've heard about with Dragon dreams.

6.Cersei does have the fire thing. Much weaker, but Tyrion has the burned bacon thing (was the 'cannot stand the cold' comment only in the series or in the book as well?) and don't forget, it was him, not Cersei, that got wildfire back into play (though he doesn't seem to show any particular fascination for it).

7.The twins have twincest, though frankly I think that is pure narcisism and nothing to do with actual familial attraction.

8.Joffrey isn't insane, he's just Cersei with the controls loosed.

9.Cersei wanted Rhaegar as the prince she was promised, as did pretty much all the girls, nothing out of the ordinary there.

10.Did Tyrion also feel a sort of kinship with Jon, or was that the other way around?

It seems to me that you overemphasis the small things that is interpreted that way could point to Tyrion being a targ, but totally sweep under the rug anything that could point towards the twins.

1. I already made my point, tywin said it because tyrion is a dwarf.

2. Being like a king has nothing to do with being a Targ. The lannisters were King as well, maybe he will be the new Lannsiter King after 300 yers. Someone do not need to be a targ in order to have great abilities. I don't think LF is a Targ for example.

3. Again, if it is so clear targ colour, then there is the proof that he is a targ bastard, and would automaticly create rumors about his parentage. I donT' see anything like that in the books.

4. My brothers girlfriend has mismatched eye and she is not a targ. I don't think it is enough of a proof.

5. Shirreen has dragon dreems as well, Moqorro sees dragons as well. tghe maesters at the Citadel definietly are interested in them, so does marwyn. Euron is interested in the dragons as well, he even went to valirya and even got a horn. Does tyrion ever mentiones that dragons were tamed by horns? Dany does I know, just because if he isn't there is someone who has pretty big klnowledge about dragons and possibly is not a Targ.

6.You just said, it, Tyrion doesn't seem to show fascination towards wildfire, the reason he brought it back to play was because of tactical reasons not because of some fascination. The like his food burned, is much much weaker, than knowing that Cersei is amezed and captivated by the fire. Didn'T Dany thought at drogos pyre that the fire was beautiful as well?

7.I think that has nothing to do with being a Targ either. but then again I don't think tyrion preference of food has anything to do it with either.

8.And Joff being possibly Targ comes from that Cersei is a possibly the, so saying he is like Cersei in a case when i was trying to point that ethere are signs that could show into the twins are Targs direction, does not discretidd my argument. Cersei sure seems paranoid (like Aerys), seeing enemies all around her.

9. I was bringing up Aurane waters. You are right that her preference to silver haired boys are no proof but again then why are you bringing up tyrions preference of food, when that is just as wek?

10.It because he was a bastard. he has a thing towards bastrads, cripples and broken things.

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I say if Tywin thought Tyrion is not his son, he would have killed him before or sent him to the NW. Ala Tarly.

Knowing Tarly, he would probably have killed Tyrion even if he was 100% certain his son. Tarly is even harder that Tywin, for his own family.

And about this, Genna said that Tyrion is Tywins son, not Jaime, she said when she told this to Tywin, he didn't speak with her for quite a time. And Tywin did tell Tyrion he is his son when he was counting on him. Being a dwarf automaticly disapoints Tywin and when his children disapoint him he tells them they are not his.

Cersei disappointed him many times in the books, but he never said she was not his daughter. Jaime disappointed him more than once (not in the least by being captured and letting his army be slaughtered by a green boy), but he only called him "not my son" in that one moment of anger and tried to still get him to accept the Valyrian sword as a gift, even after that. Tyrion OTOH, outright asks why Tywin treats him the way he does and the "I could never prove you weren't mine" doesn't leave too much to the imagination. And Tywin wasn't particularly displeased with Tyrion when he said that; they weren't words spoken in the heat of anger.

As for Genna - she noted that Tyrion is clever and cunning, like Tywin. More so than rash and less learned Jaime and Cersei. Could be nurture vs nature, could be she is right but it's nothing definite, again.

I say the morbid fascination is a bit too much. At my first read i didn't even notice he did care about them at all.

Say that to Martin. This is literally from the text:

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King’s Landing for

his sister’s wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls

that had hung on the walls of Targaryen’s throne room. King Robert had replaced them with

banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where

they had been stored.

Tyrion's fascination with dragons has nothing to do with being powerhungry, anyway. He is genuinely fascinated by the creatures, the way a particularly enthusiast scholar would (if it is a pet subject) - not the way potentially poison-wielding maesters would.

Tommen has also white-blond hair, so that haircolor is either part of the Lannister gene, or all the three are Aerys's children.

Tyrion's hair would be natural for a Targaryen and natural for a Lannister as well, judging by Tommen (if his hair is even that light, IIRC descriptions of Tommen sometimes seem contradictory). Which leaves things nicely up in the air for him. Jaime and Cersei though, have that definite Lannister golden hair touch which makes it less likely they could be an Aerys' offshoot.

tywin was said to look like the real King compared to Aerys as well. Jaime was said to look like a king as well, I don't remember who said that, one of them Starks at Winterfell, either Jon or Bran. And he can be a king, if the seven kingdoms separate, no need to have targ genes for that

Tyrion does not look like a king at all, actually - but he has been stated more than once to have a big, even "kingly" shadow. Which likely means the author is pointing out this character is going places in the story. Not necessarily as a Targaryen, but it is hardly a counter indication either.

I say the evidences poining to Jaime and Cersei are around the same amount as the ones pointing at tyrion. Not tywins son was said both to Jaime and tyrion, like a king was said about both jaime and tyrion.

I think that equating Tywin's treatment of Jaime to Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is building a theory on quicksand. I don't find it comparable at all - Jaime was Tywin's favourite (even after their fight, I think), Tyrion was constantly denigrated. In the end, after the ploy with Sansa failed, Tywin was at the point of condemning Tyrion to die - I don't think it was just a happy coincidence that this would save Casterly Rock for Cersei or Jaime without a chance of Tyrion doing anything.

As mentioned, Jaime looks like a king (and Cersei looks like a queen and is a queen, for that matter), Tyrion does not. Again, those statements have very different contexts.

tyrion has interest is dragons, Cersei is obsessed with fire as well and she found rhaegar the prettiest and is obsessed with pretty silver haired man (Aurene Waters),

Cersei is hardly obsessed with Aurane, after all she was f*cking Lancel and Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know (and even Taena), at around the time she is supposed to be obsessed. Infatuated with, yes. Obsessed, not quite.

It's true that Cersei has her wildfire fetish going for her - but in the very same scene that establishes this, we also learn that this is most certainly not a turn-on for Jaime. Which lessens the impact of the wildfire fetish a lot, unless you want to argue Cersei is from Aerys and Jaime from Tywin. I don't know if that is even medically possible, it sure looks like way too complicated to write this in the books.

Tyrion's dragon obsession also is played up at first in AGOT, in his first chapters, and is brought out again in ADWD. It will quite likely conclude with Tyrion gaining his own dragon (taming one of Dany's) in TWOW. Cersei has her wildfire thing, but it may be getting hard to compete with that.

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Oh wow! How did I miss that.

You know, the flames never lie, only the people interpreting them (well, Mel so far) mess up. That sounds pretty definitive that Tyrion is in the midst of the dragons, though not clear if he is one of them or not. By why see Tyrion within a crowd of Dragons if he is not one of them? I mean, there are plenty of possibilities, but that would seem to be an inconsistent thing for the flames to show?

Tyrion is in the midst of dragons, no ifs and buts about it. However, it is true that Tyrion knows both Jon and Aegon personally (also knew master Aemon) and will likely get acquainted with miss Stormborn soon enough. That alone could qualify him for Moqorro's statement (well, on condition he displays some proper cunning while being involved with them). Being a Targaryen himself would be the icing on the cake, but it is not strictly necessary to comply with Moqorro's vision (depending on interpretation) - Martin left things up in the air again by being pretty vague.

To be honest, the main thing against T=T is 'just because'.

How would anyone make the argument that Tyrion is actually a Lannister, if we turned this around?

- The status quo? Everyone thinks he is therefore he is? So Jon must be a bastard...

- He acts as a Lannister? Nature vs nurture, and he is at least half Lannister anyway.

- Tywin said so? Only once, when Tywin needed something from him that only he could provide. The rest of the time Tywin is clearly at odds with the notion.

What else?

The best counter argument is probably the lack of general rumours (Barristan's tale notwithstanding) and the question of how and when Aerys got access to Joanna without Tywin knowing (for sure). This goes also against Jaime and Cersei as Aerys' children, though.

The counter-counter argument is that we don't have enough info to be sure who was where when, and so Martin could explain it either way if he would chose to.

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The best counter argument is probably the lack of general rumours (Barristan's tale notwithstanding) and the question of how and when Aerys got access to Joanna without Tywin knowing (for sure). This goes also against Jaime and Cersei as Aerys' children, though.

Exactly. The best counter to any of Joanna's children being Targs is 'In Westeros married women normally only sleep with their husbands'.

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I'm convinced that GRRM is aware that these theories exist (I know he doesn't generall read internet forum's) and threw in that line to mess with the audience...

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I don't buy Tywin saying that Tyrion "isn't his son" as evidence that Tyrion isn't his son, sorry. Think of it this way: All else being the same, but Tyrion wasn't born a dwarf, would Tywin have that same attitude toward him?

Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to be his son because of his deformity. If he thinks he can get "an out" (i.e. you're someone else's bastard and the product of an affair), well, good for him. But wanting Tyrion to have been fathered by someone else just to get out of being "guilty" of producing a dwarf is not evidence.

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Upon looking more at this topic it is starting to seem more likely that either Jaime/Cersei are descended from Aerys or that Tyrion is. It definitely is not the case that all three are but what Genna Lannister said throws the smoke in a new light.

I think one of the stronger reasons to supsect that one or two of Tywin's children may be Targaryens comes from what Genna Lannister says in AFFC. It is difficult to tell the precise reason that she says this (how literally it is meant, etc.) but it is a considerable red flag. She is either saying this because she believes Jaime is less Tywin like in terms of character than Tyrion is or she suspects that there is something deeper about the lineage. By themselves the possible hints about the Jaime/Cersei/Tyrion would just be hints but what Genna says likely has some kind of plot significance.

If Tywin did have doubts about the paternity of some of his children he may have engaged in wishful thinking about the truth. It would be devastating to his mental outlook to accept the possibility he would father Tyrion while Jaime would actually have come from Aerys. This might be why Tywin refused to heed Genna: his world would cave in if he knew it to be true. Tywin is not a very objective source on this subject.

It is hard to say whether any of them are unknown Targaryens but there is enough that the matter is very murky and suspicious. It would remain to be seen though which set of hints constitute the red herrings and how much it would really affect the plot.

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'Jaime... You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you'

She is saying Jaime did not get much of his character from Tywin, but she is also drawing him as being very like his uncles - so she is not denying that there is a close relationship. If Jaime were merely cousin-once-removed to these men (as he would be if related only through Joanna) then would Genna draw such close parallels?

I'm going back to the reason I don't consider it at all possible that any of Joanna's children were father by Aerys. It would have required them to sex. Was it rape? That would have been a massive insult to her and her house. Is she supposed to have just accepted it and borne another mans bastards?

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Exactly. The best counter to any of Joanna's children being Targs is 'In Westeros married women normally only sleep with their husbands'.

Except that we've seen a lot of difference from this. In particular by Targaryens.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You can't say that just because we have no evidence that Aerys slept with Joanna that Awerys could not have slept with Joanna. In fact we have conspicuous evidence that Aerys wanted to sleep with Joanna, took unusual liberties with Joanna at least once, and considered Tywin only a servant. And we have no evidence at all that they were not in the same place at the suitable times.

Tywin doesn't want Tyrion to be his son because of his deformity. If he thinks he can get "an out" (i.e. you're someone else's bastard and the product of an affair), well, good for him. But wanting Tyrion to have been fathered by someone else just to get out of being "guilty" of producing a dwarf is not evidence.

I don't entirely disagree with this. But it definitely is 'potential evidence', just like much of the 'evidence' about Tyrion. So he likes his bacon burned black. That means nothing. But if he turns out to have been a Targ, as GRRM can freely decide, it will have been a wonderfully subtle little hint. 'Potential evidence'.

I'm going back to the reason I don't consider it at all possible that any of Joanna's children were father by Aerys. It would have required them to sex. Was it rape? That would have been a massive insult to her and her house. Is she supposed to have just accepted it and borne another mans bastards?

That is a very weak argument for impossibility. We know Aerys raped his wife violently. We know Aerys desired Joanna. We know he considered Tywin merely a servant. This wouldn't just be 'another mans bastard' this would be a kings bastard.

Men in power it seems often don't care about the marriage status of the women they want, if the women are lower class (and they aren't intending to marry them of course). To Aerys, everyone is lower class, and especially/explicitly Tywin.

Though I do have to say that the examples that come to mind are all Greyjoys.

If it was rape (seems likely if it did indeed happen) then what could Joanna do? Complain to her husband and have him lose his high position and favour? Risk her husband rebelling alone and the destruction of her house and family? Or keep it quiet and tell no one?

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I don't entirely disagree with this. But it definitely is 'potential evidence', just like much of the 'evidence' about Tyrion. So he likes his bacon burned black. That means nothing. But if he turns out to have been a Targ, as GRRM can freely decide, it will have been a wonderfully subtle little hint. 'Potential evidence'.

And if he "freely decides" to make Jaime and Cersei the Targs, there will also have been "wonderfully subtle hints." Like, say, Cersei feeling aroused when she watches the Tower of the Hand burn. Or Genna telling Jaime that "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you." Or Cersei and Jaime's incest. Or the thematic ironies — Jaime and Tyrion each killing his own father, Robert working to knock the Targs off the throne and unwittingly putting three Targ bastards in line for it, Tywin's mortal political enemy fathering two perfect twins and Tywin himself fathering a dwarf.

I think any or all of that is probably more significant than how Tyrion likes his breakfast meat, but yet people still try to say that there's "more evidence" for Tyrion. I still don't see it — Tywin looking for an excuse to disown him, "bacon burnt black" and the dragonrider thing aren't blowing my skirt up. Your argument to Buried Treasure about Aerys possibly raping Joanna doesn't necessarily point to Tyrion specifically — or any of the three children really — as a Targ bastard. Or on the flip side, if it points to Tyrion as a possible Targ bastard, it also points to the twins.

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The only one who could parallel to Aerys is Cersei imo. I think liking fire can be used as evidence but it's not DNA evidence. I think it was said as a joke somewhere that Selyse would walk into the fire if Mel asked or something to that effect.

Cersei was sexually aroused by fire and Tyrion dreamed of burning his family members alive. He called Jon a liar when he said he didn't have those same thoughts.

Tyrion is Tywin 2.0 but even though Jamie is not like Tywin Genna said that he's like Tywin's brothers. I think they're all Tywin's basically.

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And if he "freely decides" to make Jaime and Cersei the Targs, there will also have been "wonderfully subtle hints." Like, say, Cersei feeling aroused when she watches the Tower of the Hand burn. Or Genna telling Jaime that "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you." Or Cersei and Jaime's incest. Or the thematic ironies — Jaime and Tyrion each killing his own father, Robert working to knock the Targs off the throne and unwittingly putting three Targ bastards in line for it, Tywin's mortal political enemy fathering two perfect twins and Tywin himself fathering a dwarf.

I think any or all of that is probably more significant than how Tyrion likes his breakfast meat, but yet people still try to say that there's "more evidence" for Tyrion.

Oh I agree. Both arguments have a bunch of splendid little details that could later be used to say "hey, the hints were right there in the text". And the bacon burned black is probably the least of them all (which is why I used it to show the difference between 'hard evidence' and 'potential evidence'.

The 'more' evidence for Tyrion is partially the actual physical evidence (which Jaime and Cersei have none of), and partially the accumulated weight of 'potential evidence'.

His hair colour, and mismatched eyes. Being affected by the Dragon bones and the dragon dreams probably fit here too. These are real evidence, though far from conclusive.

His general dragon obsession (including, for example, asking his uncle for a baby dragon as a birthday gift when a small child) perhaps matches off against Cersei's wildfire fetish (which isn't as clear as posters often make out, I just reread that section in the last couple of days, and isn't shared by Jaime), and the metaphysical descriptions (Moquorro's fire-visions, his casting a large shadow etc) probably about match off vs twincest (which I think is more narcissism than Taragaryen-like). The various family/not-family allusions are all pretty vague and dubious, being easily countered by other reasons than biological parentage, but if they count then surely Tyrion suffers a lot more of them than Jaime and Cersei.

That ends up with Tyrion significantly ahead in the overall evidence (of whatever quality) count, though either or neither options are still very feasible.

I still don't see it — Tywin looking for an excuse to disown him, "bacon burnt black" and the dragonrider thing aren't blowing my skirt up. Your argument to Buried Treasure about Aerys possibly raping Joanna doesn't necessarily point to Tyrion specifically — or any of the three children really — as a Targ bastard. Or on the flip side, if it points to Tyrion as a possible Targ bastard, it also points to the twins.

Agreed it does (or doesn't) point to any of them over another. Burnt Treasure was claiming it was a reason to rule out any of the children, I was just pointing out how fallacious that was. I didn't mention Tyrion there at all.

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I have a really stupid question, forgive me.

Are you discussing this topic in a rather intense manner for purely academic reasons or is there an emotional investment behind your different positions?

I myself really like the character Tyrion. I might feel a slight disappointment if Tyrion were not Tywins son, because the father - son tragedy is too well written not to be true and because the impact on Tyrion's character is stronger with being the killer of his own father. I do not believe in such things as "moral event horizon" or "irredeemable".

And Tyrion could definitely be a dragonrider without being a Targ if Martin chooses to write it. He can be the "evil" or positive mastermind whoever his biological father is. If GRRM wants to write it it will happen.

But I would certainly not mind too much if Tyrion turned out to be of Targaeryen descent, a new plot turn, curious to see the outcome.

Why, and I am truly interested to know, is this then so important to you? I mean, the debate is interesting but we will find out anyway.

And I immensely enjoy Tyrion's dragon obsession.

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