Tyrion as a Targaryen

[ShadowRaven]

Where does it say Aerys slept with Joanna? I believe he just touched her in a certain way?

[oba]

Honestly, I like the idea of Tyrion being a Targ....however, I think that this is a deliberate red herring as well. Based on what clues we are given in the books, if any of the Lannister brood were actually Targaryens I would have to cast my lot for the twins...Jaime and Cersei. This is mainly because of the fact that it is stated in the books that Aerys took Joanna Lannister on her wedding night, as was his right as King in that time.

That's not what's stated in the books. Barristan says that Aerys took "certain liberties" during the bedding ceremony/ritual and that Aerys said he lamented that the "first night" tradition had been abolished. He doesn't state that Aerys actually slept with Joanna.

Here's the exact quote:

"Prince Aerys...as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity the lord's right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the...the liberties your father took during the bedding."

I didn't interpret that as Aerys slept with Joanna (presumably in front of witnesses, including Tywin himself).

With that said, he slept with her before Tywin did and shortly after the twins were born.

Not only don't we know that Aerys slept with Joanna, we don't know that the twins were born within 9 months of Joanna and Tywin's marriage.

[oba]

Where does it say Aerys slept with Joanna? I believe he just touched her in a certain way?

Barristan is our source for the "liberties" during the bedding, and he doesn't say that Aerys slept with Joanna.

[Wellspring]

Barristan is our source for the "liberties" during the bedding, and he doesn't say that Aerys slept with Joanna.

Precisely.

Ser Barristan's words are sufficiently delicate and diplomatic that they could mean anything. As King, Aerys could get away with quite a lot, but we don't have any proof at all that they Did The Deed. OTOH, for people who were already speculating about this possibility, Selmy's hints are very pointed.

[oba]

Ser Barristan's words are sufficiently delicate and diplomatic that they could mean anything. As King, Aerys could get away with quite a lot, but we don't have any proof at all that they Did The Deed. OTOH, for people who were already speculating about this possibility, Selmy's hints are very pointed.

My thoughts exactly. Selmy's words certainly add fuel to the fire, so to speak, but he still doesn't specifically confirm that Aerys slept with Joanna. If Tyrion = Targaryen gets revealed in a later book, even folks (like me) who don't support the theory can't exactly say it came out of left field, but at the same time Martin didn't go so far as to make it plain/clear that Aerys did, in fact, sleep with Joanna.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Ser Barristan's words are sufficiently delicate and diplomatic that they could mean anything. As King, Aerys could get away with quite a lot, but we don't have any proof at all that they Did The Deed. OTOH, for people who were already speculating about this possibility, Selmy's hints are very pointed.

Read: For people who already wanted to believe that Tyrion was a Targ, Selmy's statement gives them something to cling to. :P

Just a note on the timeline — Tywin was Hand of the King for about 20 years, and Tyrion's birth came roughly in the middle of that. I'm under the impression that Joanna mostly stayed at the Rock (probably running it) while Tywin was in the capital. Obviously he had to either bring her to the capital or (I think more likely) he went back to the Rock occasionally, just for Tyrion to be conceived. Point in all of this is, I'm wondering when or if Aerys would even have had the opportunity to sleep with Joanna and conceive Tyrion. I don't think they could sneak around in the capital, and I think it would have been noted if Aerys had made a bunch of trips to Casterly Rock (whereas Tywin going home wouldn't be that big of a deal). By this time, too, Tywin surely knew about Aerys' "crush" on Joanna and probably actively made sure to keep them apart.

[Hot Pie Targaryen]

Imho, the most important factor favoring T=T is being overlooked. It's not about the characters or empirical evidence or anything like that: it's about why GRRM includes these passages in the books. I think it's irrelevant whether Tywin thinks Tyrion is really his son or not: what's important is that GRRm chose to have him say that Tyrion is not his son, and whether or not the reader is supposed to infer. Likewise the Chapter 4 conversation between Jon & Tyrion, Barristan hinting at Aerys's fondness for Joanna, etc. It's more about what Martin wants the reader to see. Regardless of whether or not T=T, I think that Martin has intentionally thrown in a lot of clues intended to make the reader ponder whether or not Tyrion is a Targ.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Imho, the most important factor favoring T=T is being overlooked. It's not about the characters or empirical evidence or anything like that: it's about why GRRM includes these passages in the books. I think it's irrelevant whether Tywin thinks Tyrion is really his son or not: what's important is that GRRm chose to have him say that Tyrion is not his son, and whether or not the reader is supposed to infer. Likewise the Chapter 4 conversation between Jon & Tyrion, Barristan hinting at Aerys's fondness for Joanna, etc. It's more about what Martin wants the reader to see. Regardless of whether or not T=T, I think that Martin has intentionally thrown in a lot of clues intended to make the reader ponder whether or not Tyrion is a Targ.

But that's the kind of sleight of hand that he's fond of. Making readers think about Possibility A using some clues, when in reality those clues were pointing to Possibility B all along. His red herrings tend to be pretty loud and straightforward, only for the "real" solution to be something more quietly conveyed.

For example, in the event that Jaime and Cersei are Aerys' children (I don't think this, but I'm using it as an example), they would be Possibility B to Tyrion's Possibility A. Martin would have been hinting all along that a Lannister sibling was really Aerys', and readers would draw their own conclusion that it must be Tyrion. When it was revealed that no, it's really the twins, Martin's clues would be no less valid, they would just be pointing to a less-obvious solution.

I honestly don't put much stock in what Tywin says about Tyrion. He might not want to believe Tyrion is his son, because he doesn't want to accept that he fathered a dwarf. If Tyrion had been Jaime Part 2, does anyone in their right mind think that Tywin would be so hostile and say things like, "I don't think you're my son"? This is another reason why Tyrion as a Targ leaves a bad, bad taste in my mouth — it vindicates a total asshole like Tywin.

[Hot Pie Targaryen]

But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter why Tywin says that Tyrion is not his son. Let's assume that it is 100% certain that Tywin believes Tyrion is his son, and that he says this because (a) Joanna died giving birth to him and/or (B) he's a dwarf. What's more important is that Martin chose him to say that Tyrion is not his son, giving a clue to the reader which may or may not be accurate. The point I'm making is that Tywin et al's motivations are irrelevant to whether or not T=T. The only factor that's rekevant is what Martin chooses to say, and I think it's indisputable that he didn't put all these allusions into the text coincidentally. It may be a red herring, but I don't see how anyone can be dismissive of the theory at least being suggested by Martin, whether it turns out to be true or not.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter why Tywin says that Tyrion is not his son. Let's assume that it is 100% certain that Tywin believes Tyrion is his son, and that he says this because (a) Joanna died giving birth to him and/or ( B) he's a dwarf. What's more important is that Martin chose him to say that Tyrion is not his son, giving a clue to the reader which may or may not be accurate. The point I'm making is that Tywin et al's motivations are irrelevant to whether or not T=T. The only factor that's rekevant is what Martin chooses to say, and I think it's indisputable that he didn't put all these allusions into the text coincidentally. It may be a red herring, but I don't see how anyone can be dismissive of the theory at least being suggested by Martin, whether it turns out to be true or not.

I'm not following. I don't think you can separate Tywin's motivations from this at all, because it's Tywin's motivations that make him say what he says. That's why people who think Tyrion's a Targ because of what Tywin says are missing the point — Tywin says what he says because he has motivation to not want Tyrion for a son. It doesn't actually mean that he isn't.

Martin might want people to think that Tyrion is a Targ, sure. But that doesn't mean he is, as I've pointed out. There are a lot of obvious clues or statements in the stories that don't lead where you think they do.

[Hot Pie Targaryen]

Martin is using the literary device of allusion. Even though different chapters are written from the perspective of different chsracters, he's still writing in 3rd person. The idea of allusion is more about the author including certain things in the text for the purpose of the reader seeing it and making a connection. It doesn't mean that the character has to believe in what's being alluded to; it's kind of intended to be a message from the author to the reader.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Martin is using the literary device of allusion. Even though different chapters are written from the perspective of different chsracters, he's still writing in 3rd person. The idea of allusion is more about the author including certain things in the text for the purpose of the reader seeing it and making a connection. It doesn't mean that the character has to believe in what's being alluded to; it's kind of intended to be a message from the author to the reader.

I'm pretty sure I said that just because Martin might want to lead readers on about, it doesn't make it true. Going on Martin's precedent, it probably isn't true.

[Damon_Tor]

This theory also makes Aerys' appointment of Jaime to the kingsguard doubly devious: it takes Tywins son away as heir to Casterly Rock, and puts his own in his place. Taking away a man's heir because you're envious of him, that's just petty. Taking away a man's heir and setting up your own son to inherit all that he owns? Well that's a level of deviousness more befitting a Targeryn.

As to the meta-argument that this takes away the impact of Tyrion killing his father, I disagree. We've already felt that impact, that's already happened.

[WolveseatDragons]

There are 4 reasons to think that Tyrion is a Targ.

1-The way his father treats him and has never treated him as a son other than sending him to be Hand (which I think was more expediency). He also told him he would never have Casterly Rock in spite of being the rightful heir as Jaime was in the Kingsguard.

2-Lots of evidence of at least an infatuation of Aerys with Joanna. Martin went out of his way to talk about how Aerys wanted her sexually.

3-Tyrion seems overly obsessed with dragons. He speaks of dreaming of dragons. He is reading a book on dragons in GoT. There seems to be a lot of talk about Tyrion and dragons.

4-This is the biggest piece of evidence to me. The dragon has 3 heads and "only death pays for life". Dany's mother died in childbirth. Assuming R+L=J his mother died in childbirth. Joanna died in childbirth as well. It would make the most sense that the 3 dragon riders are Targs so who else would it be? Aegon seems too obvious. Maybe you could have Bran warging a dragon but that isn't really a rider and it causes other problems.

Is he a Targ? Who knows, but the evidence is almost as strong for Tyrion as it is for Jon though it is more subtle. Story wise it also makes sense. Tyrion can never be Lord of Casterly Rock after murdering Tywin and thought to have murdered Joff. What else is to become of him? The only thing that is consistent about these books is very little happens as you would expect it to in a normal tale.

BTW, I think Tyrion doesn't live to see the end of the books.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This theory also makes Aerys' appointment of Jaime to the kingsguard doubly devious: it takes Tywins son away as heir to Casterly Rock, and puts his own in his place. Taking away a man's heir because you're envious of him, that's just petty. Taking away a man's heir and setting up your own son to inherit all that he owns? Well that's a level of deviousness more befitting a Targeryn.

The twins-are-Targs proponents would counter this by saying that Aerys was telling Tywin that Jaime belonged to him, literally.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1-The way his father treats him and has never treated him as a son other than sending him to be Hand (which I think was more expediency). He also told him he would never have Casterly Rock in spite of being the rightful heir as Jaime was in the Kingsguard.

His father treats him poorly because he's a dwarf and thus an embarrassment to him. Like I said above, if Tyrion had been tall and handsome and the second coming of Jaime, Tywin wouldn't have had any problems.

2-Lots of evidence of at least an infatuation of Aerys with Joanna. Martin went out of his way to talk about how Aerys wanted her sexually.

It doesn't mean he had her. I also discussed how the timeline of Tyrion's birth and Tywin's tenure as Hand makes Aerys fathering Tyrion somewhat hard to explain.

3-Tyrion seems overly obsessed with dragons. He speaks of dreaming of dragons. He is reading a book on dragons in GoT. There seems to be a lot of talk about Tyrion and dragons.

Tyrion "dreams" of dragons in the way that a little girl "dreams" of having a pony. I don't think he has actual prophetic "dragon" dreams the way actual Targs have.

4-This is the biggest piece of evidence to me. The dragon has 3 heads and "only death pays for life". Dany's mother died in childbirth. Assuming R+L=J his mother died in childbirth. Joanna died in childbirth as well. It would make the most sense that the 3 dragon riders are Targs so who else would it be? Aegon seems too obvious. Maybe you could have Bran warging a dragon but that isn't really a rider and it causes other problems.

Martin has said that not all of the dragon riders have to be Targs. So saying that if Tyrion is dragon rider, he must be a Targ is inaccurate.

Is he a Targ? Who knows, but the evidence is almost as strong for Tyrion as it is for Jon though it is more subtle. Story wise it also makes sense. Tyrion can never be Lord of Casterly Rock after murdering Tywin and thought to have murdered Joff. What else is to become of him? The only thing that is consistent about these books is very little happens as you would expect it to in a normal tale.

The "evidence" for Tyrion can equally be turned around to be used to support the idea of the twins being Targaryen bastards. Yet everyone ignores that in favor of Tyrion, which I suspect is the intention — Possibility A is loud and out there but in actuality it's Possibility B. IF any of the Lannisters are Aerys', which I don't think is the case.

[Damon_Tor]

Then why would he not want Cersei to marry Rhaegar?

EDIT: Nevermind, you're not actually arguing for that case.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Then why would he not want Cersei to marry Rhaegar?

I should point out that I don't think the twins are Targs. I don't think ANY of Tywin's children are Targs. But to me, the twins make much, much, much more sense — logically and thematically — than Tyrion, and it amuses me that so many people jump on the Tyrion bandwagon but ignore the evidence for the twins.

[WolveseatDragons]

Apple,

If your point is that Tyrion isn't definitively a Targ I agree with you. We also don't know if Aegon, the Twins, or Jon are Targs for that matter. The point is there is evidence that Tyrion is a Targ. Specifically to point 4 I agree that not all dragon riders need be Targs but the logic that "death pays for life" and how everything goes in 3's in relation to dragons seemingly is the stronger point. It may just be coincidence but it is interesting.

As for the twins I suppose it is possible they are Targs but it would seem odd. I can see some evidence there though.

1. Aerys "taking liberties" during the bedding.

2. Jaime's appointment to the Kingsguard, was it Aerys wanting his son closer to him?

The biggest oddity though would be how Aerys refused to have Cersei marry Rhaegar. That simply doesn't add up for Targs. Also, the twins have never shown any Targ like traits except for maybe a bit of madness.

[Eugene Toussaint]

I think Tywin not being Tyrion father actually adds more to their relationship since Tyrion spent his whole life trying to live up to him, and while it does not matter to either way to me i lean towards Tyrion being a Targ for many of the reasons stated here and more specifically the first and last conversation Tyrion had with Tywin in "A Storms of Swords"

in the first Tywin says "Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him."

and Tywin's last words are (Literally) "You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine."

these two statement alone make it clear that Tywin had at least some doubts about who Tyrion's father was, now i believe those doubts and the fact that Tyrion actually reminded Tywin of himself, mostly the bad traits like the whoring and such is why Tywin hated Tyrion so much and would get mad at someone like Genna for saying Tyrion was like him

there is a psychology term for people who hate other people that remind them of themselves but i can't remember what its called, something about mirroring, but to me, having a son that probably isn't mine but also reminds me about everything i hate about myself who probably get me mad too

Tywin is actually very family orientated, and if there wasn't some doubts about where Tyrion came from, i do not believe so much hate would develop simply because Tyrion was a dwarf and Joanna died giving birth to him