Tyrion as a Targaryen

[jet199]

Here's a possible Tyrion/Targ link or it may be a foreshadowing.

Tysha is an anagram of Hasty as in Bonifer Hasty who was in love with Rhaella but was too low class to marry her.

I really don't know where that leads to.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Here's a possible Tyrion/Targ link or it may be a foreshadowing.

Tysha is an anagram of Hasty as in Bonifer Hasty who was in love with Rhaella but was too low class to marry her.

I really don't know where that leads to.

Hm... Interesting anagram. I'm convinced there maybe a Hasty - Tysha reference, but that's a long shot for Tyrion - Rhaella.

[The Red Hand]

Do you mean Tywin's anecdote telling Tyrion "I let you live and raised you as my son" (or similar)? Because I always interpreted that as "I let you live and raised you as my son as opposed to sending you away under an assumed name, locking you up Man in the Iron Mask-style, doing a baby swap with another baby passing you off as someone else's child, etc. etc." and not as "I let you live and raised you as if you were my son," which makes no sense in context.

There's also the end part of the quote "I let you live and raised you as my son because you're a Lannister." Doesn't that say it all, really? I mean, yes, Tyrion would still technically be half-Lannister were he fathered by a Targ, but Tywin wouldn't call him a Lannister if that were the case.

Tywin still considered Tommen a Lannister even though he thought his father was Robert. Something like "send him to CR, there he'll learn to be a Lannister." If A+J=T doesn't come true then the scene would've been pointless IMO, especially that last quote from Tywin. "I raised you as my son because you're my son"? Pointless; and contradictory to his earlier "I cannot prove you are not mine".

[Newstar]

I think the show has confirmed this rumor for us. Unfortunately one of the many to come

I commented on the "Because you're a Lannister" thing earlier, but I also wanted to add that the show is not particularly attached to visual hints that Tyrion is a Targ. His hair in Season 1 was decidedly blonde and not "white-blonde," more yellow (the wig was atrocious), and it seems to be darker and wavier with each passing season (I'm not even sure if they're using a wig anymore and are just having Peter Dinklage dye his hair). He dresses in black a lot in Season 2 and beyond (Targ colour), but then, so does Tywin. And even though Tyrion has had the most dialogue of any character in the show--I think he has double the lines of the character who has the second-most lines--there haven't been any hints, either from the books or otherwise, that there's something to the theory. No mention of his obsession with dragons, e.g. The request for bacon "burned black" did make it in, so for anyone who attaches weight to that, I guess that's something.

The show means absolutely ZERO to the books.

Mmm, I dunno about that. The writers know how the books end, and they're not above dropping hints as to events beyond aired seasons (Brienne in Season 2: "Who wants to die defending a Lannister?"), so the show can be viewed in that light. The writers don't know everything about everyone--these are books with thousands of characters, after all--but they have a pretty good idea of what happens to the lead characters, and they're not above hinting at stuff down the road or above confirming book theories (Theon being castrated).

With all that said about the show, I did notice that the cover of The Wit and Wisdom of Tyrion Lannister featured an artist's rendering of Tyrion as his book self--I'm sure they'd sell more copies if they used Peter Dinklage's image, but whatever--and his hair has a definite silvery cast. And granted, that's technically true to the books--Tyrion's hair is white-blonde, after all--but it struck me as strange, since in the ASOIAF art calendars, Tyrion is usually depicted with straw-yellow hair.

Also, an excerpt from GRRM's The Princess and the Queen was recently released, and in it we learn that the two competing factions were referred to as the "greens" and the "blacks."

Here's a possible Tyrion/Targ link or it may be a foreshadowing.

Tysha is an anagram of Hasty as in Bonifer Hasty who was in love with Rhaella but was too low class to marry her.

I really don't know where that leads to.

I've seen a theory that the explanation for Tysha's name is that Tysha was actually a close blood relation of Tyrion (through bastardy)--as hinted by her "Ty-" name, which seems to be a bit of a things with Lannisters (except for Tytos Blackwood, I guess)--and that's the secret reason Tywin acted so swiftly to put a stop to the match and hush it up. I suppose then according to this theory Tysha would have to be Tywin's bastard to have a sufficiently close degree of consanguinity, since Tywin himself married his first cousin. It's pretty crackpot--and Tysha was dark-haired and blue-eyed, so there's that as well--but that theory is floating around. Tysha could be to Tywin what Lanna (the Sailor's Wife's daughter) might be to Tyrion...although if Tysha is the Sailor's Wife, the theory makes my head hurt a little.

[Cer Tarl]

Do you mean Tywin's anecdote telling Tyrion "I let you live and raised you as my son" (or similar)? Because I always interpreted that as "I let you live and raised you as my son as opposed to sending you away under an assumed name, locking you up Man in the Iron Mask-style, doing a baby swap with another baby passing you off as someone else's child, etc. etc." and not as "I let you live and raised you as if you were my son," which makes no sense in context.

There's also the end part of the quote "I let you live and raised you as my son because you're a Lannister." Doesn't that say it all, really? I mean, yes, Tyrion would still technically be half-Lannister were he fathered by a Targ, but Tywin wouldn't call him a Lannister if that were the case.

First, sorry for taking so long to respond.

I suppose the way the actor who is portraying Twin in the series acted. He is very gifted and I believe that the way he said because youre a lannister! there is something to that. Now I do like the position that he is a lannister but tywin believes he is Aerys'.

And yes I agree with your example.

I do however believe grrm is trying to correlate the two men, Ned Stark and Tywin as it pertains to fatherhood.

Ned is a truly honorable man. And if you believe R+L=J even more so bc he dishonored his name to keep his honor (follow me?).

Whereas Tywin, whether it is ACTUALLY true or not doesnt matter Tywin thinks Tyrion isnt TRULY from his bloodline (safe to assume?). And he only raised him as is son to protect the perception of his honor i.e. the king fathering a child and basically taking his eldest from him.

Thats why I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that you have to come from someones testicles for them to be your father. There is a difference between impregnating a woman and being a father. Its one of the many aspects I feel asoiaf is such a great piece of literature. We easily think of brotherhood when it comes to our buds. The nights watch members become brothers. But being a father is something completely separate and a lot of men aren't capable.

Thats my interpretation. I dont see how you can view that scene with Tyrion and Tywin in s03 (sorry cant remember episode) towards the end, and NOT feel theres credence to theory.

As far as the show not having anything to with the books? Im sorry where do you think they will get the creative process to wrap this story up for the lowest common denominator viewer? There will be no more characters that are not central to the main thread storyline and the locations are not expanding. We will have a show wrapped up based upon the story threads laid out in the first 3 seasons. Its naive to think anything more than 6 seasons will come from HBO (although I'd love to eat my words on this).

[Newstar]

The funny thing about the "white-blond hair" argument is that yeah, Tommen has white-blond hair too, but Tyrion doesn't just have white-blond hair: he has black hair, too, in his beard. He sure as heck didn't get that from Tywin or Joanna. It could be nothing, but it could be another hint that's something's not quite right about Tyrion's physical characteristics if his parentage is what it's said to be.

This seems to be the list of stuff from the books that gets cited in Tyrion = Targ threads that made it into the show:

1. Tyrion asking for bacon, burnt black (1x02)

2. Sweetrobin wanting to see Tyrion "fly" (1x05)

3. Tywin telling Tyrion that he cannot prove that Tyrion is not his (3x01)

[Cer Tarl]

Theres so much to think about (why I love talking about this) lets take it back to the three dragons. Is lit literal or a metaphor? One Targ or 3 tarts? Or 3 Targs riding dragons? If its riding, how cool would it be (assuming only targs can) that jon,tyrion and danny would be the riders?

Lol I guess thats why Im partial to the theory Tyrion=Targ. But I could be persuaded either way. I mean shit, I had my mind blown when I realized (on this forum) that the red viper most likely killed Tywin. So to you naysayers, how would the fact that tywin was dying on that toilet and tyrion (maybe mercifully) killed him just short before he died anyway, change Tryion? Thats why I dont think it changes tyrions character at all if tywin isnt his biological father. The man still raised him and was his father at that moment he pulled the trigger

[Maia]

The funny thing about the "white-blond hair" argument is that yeah, Tommen has white-blond hair too, but Tyrion doesn't just have white-blond hair: he has black hair, too, in his beard. He sure as heck didn't get that from Tywin or Joanna.)

Actually, Tommen doesn't, not anymore. He did in AGOT when he was very young (as is realistic, iRL young kids often have extremely fair hair, while it is a big rarity among adults) but as of AFFC, either Jaime or Cersei noted in a PoV that he had "Joffrey's golden curls", i.e. shared the hair color of his parents, siblings and grandfather.

As to Tyrion, he is actually a human Lipizzaner of Westeros, since he was born with _black_ hair, which at some point turned into an "almost white", like Maekar's. Between that and a black eye, it is no wonder that Tywin had doubts about his paternity...

[Dead Wolf]

So Tyrion is Aerys' son? That doesn't make sense because the "liberties" Aerys took during Joanna's bedding would have been the conception of Jaime and Cersei, not Tyrion. We don't have any evidence that Joanna was even near Aerys after that

[Lord Varys]

Barristan's tale about Joanna's marriage lays the groundwork for this whole thing. As of yet, we don't have confirmation that anything happened afterwards. But the thing is, that there are a lot of hints that Tyrion might turn out to be a Targaryen, and Lady Genna said that Tywin developed into a man even she no longer liked all that much. This could very well refer to Joanna as well. We don't yet know if she loved Tywin when they got married. All we do know is that Tywin was deeply in love with (and ruled by) her.

It's easily possible that Joanna had an affair with Aerys later on, perhaps after she and Tywin had a quarrel. Both Aerys and Joanna would have had access to each other, with Tywin being the Hand. It's quite likely that Joanna visited KL on a regular basis, just as Aerys may have visited Casterly Rock often during the early part of his reign.

If Jaime and Cersei had been Aerys' children, one would suspect that either Aerys had accepted Tywin's offer to marry Cersei to Rhaegar, or had told Jaime as soon as he had joined the Kingsguard. More importantly, I very much doubt that he would have treated Jaime as badly if he had known or suspected that he was his son. And Aerys would have known when he had slept with Joanna to make a guess whether he did or did not impregnate her. Most certainly he would have told Jaime when he commanded him to bring him Tywin's head and/or when Jaime murdered Rossart and was about to kill him.

The fact that Tywin and Joanna did not have any children after Jaime and Cersei for quite a long time may be telling as well. There have been no hints about any miscarriages/stillborns between the twins and Tyrion. It's quite likely that Joanna did not allow Tywin to share her bed in the later years of their marriage.

[Lala]

Just fyi Tyrion's dragon dreams only come after he has read all those books about dragon (how many of the readers here have dreamt about ASoIaF after reading it extensively right before bed? I know I have) and they are very different from the true dragon dreams that Dany has so they're hardly evidence.

I don't rule out that Tyrion may become a dragon rider, since I think GRRM mentioned at one point how not all of the riders need to be Targaryens, meaning that his dreams of dragon-riding could still be used as foreshadowing for that, they simply have no persuasiveness as evidence that A+J=T.

Also I have too much respect for GRRM to expect him to pull something as bizarre as Tyrion = magical dragon-riding dwarf-prince since that plot twist would honestly make most of Tyrion/Tywin's relationship pretty meaningless, causing both characters to lose quite a lot of depth.

[Maia]

So Tyrion is Aerys' son? That doesn't make sense because the "liberties" Aerys took during Joanna's bedding would have been the conception of Jaime and Cersei, not Tyrion. We don't have any evidence that Joanna was even near Aerys after that

Jaime and Cersei were born at least 4 years after Tywin's marriage, though, so "liberties" couldn't have resulted in them either! Not to mention that Tywin's brothers, Joanna's brother and a host of other Lannnisters must have participated in her bedding and I don't see them not intervening in case of actual sex attempts on Awrys's part.

Also I have too much respect for GRRM to expect him to pull something as bizarre as Tyrion = magical dragon-riding dwarf-prince since that plot twist would honestly make most of Tyrion/Tywin's relationship pretty meaningless, causing both characters to lose quite a lot of depth.

IMHO, it would make their relationship deeper and make Tywin a much more 3-dimensional character, if he had it in him to raise his wife's bastard as a son, even as abusively as he did. It must have been particularly hard to hear how Tyrion was the one most like him too, heh.

As to Tyrion, Tywin was still the only father he'd ever know and they are alike, so the complexity and cautionary part of it would be wholly preserved. And it would mean that Tyrion does owe Tywin a bit, despite everything.

Also, do you really think that revelation that he was a Mad King's bastard, most likely born of rape, would make Tyrion glad?! Or, apart from getting him a dragon, make things easier for him? He'd still be considered a kingslayer, kinslayer and now a bastard too!

[Consigliere]

Tyrion is not a secret Targ

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I saw this interesting quote of possible dragon dreams from tyrion

Tyrion had drunk

himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull.

Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

Could it be wine helps Tyrion not have dragon dreams?

Hence one of the reasons for his addiction to wine?

Any thoughts anyone?

And please if you are arguing against Tyrion not being a targ or targ bastard keep your tone down, its just a forum :closedeyes:

[chrisdaw]

Characters which in the published series or Dunk and Egg stories are noted to have had dreams of dragons.

Aemon Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Shireen Baratheon

Daeron Targaryen

Daemon II Blackfyre

Tyrion Lannister

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Characters which in the published series or Dunk and Egg stories are noted to have had dreams of dragons.

Aemon Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Shireen Baratheon

Daeron Targaryen

Daemon II Blackfyre

Tyrion Lannister

I don't think we know enough about Tyrion's so-called dragon dreams to define them as actual prophetic dragon dreams. He hasn't had any such dreams in his POVs, for instance, nor has he really demonstrated a shred of prophetic ability. When Tyrion says he used to "dream of dragons," I've always read it as the same way a girl would dream of a pony. A childhood fantasy, that's it.

[Drexyon7]

Characters which in the published series or Dunk and Egg stories are noted to have had dreams of dragons.

Aemon Targaryen

Daenerys Targaryen

Shireen Baratheon

Daeron Targaryen

Daemon II Blackfyre

Tyrion Lannister

Teora Toland...

[chrisdaw]

Dreams of dragons, not dragon dreams.

Teora Toland...

Yeah that's why I specified published material not subject to change.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dreams of dragons, not dragon dreams.

Again, it comes across the way a little girl would dream of having a pony. I don't think it's evidence that he's a Targ.

[Drexyon7]

Dreams of dragons, not dragon dreams.

Yeah that's why I specified published material not subject to change.

fair enough :dunno: