Tyrion as a Targaryen

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

If Dance of Dragons 2.0 does occur with dragons fighting we can conclude Tyrion's dragon dreams are prophetic.

Guess we must wait for WOW.

[chrisdaw]

If Dance of Dragons 2.0 does occur with dragons fighting we can conclude Tyrion's dragon dreams are prophetic.

Guess we must wait for WOW.

It stands to reason but I would not necessarily say so. Tyrion very likely intentionally planted the seed in Aegon's mind to abandon the immediate marriage for Westeros, and with that comes a possible war between the two character dragons. Whilst I believe it is a prophetic dream given what he has on the mind it's possible it's your garden variety dream.

Also that prophetic dreams are necessarily dragon dreams is ambiguous. The Ghost of High Heart refers to dreams when she delivers her prophecies. From memory dragon dreams seem to not only be prophetic, but also have literal dragons in them. Tyrion's dream has no dragons in them.

Taera Tolman's dream is almost certainly a dragon dream, both having physical dragons and revealing the future. We know of no characters having dragon dreams without having dragon's blood, it's a pretty specific ability and I highly doubt we'd see it in a character without dragon blood. Which would make it most likely she either has dragon's blood somewhere down the line (I don't believe we know she does but I may have missed it, there's no reason she couldn't and the new texts on the way may provide ancestry information) or possibly won't make the final cut.

[IRON BANK]

***SPOILER*****I found this very interesting insert from the dangerous women review it talks about who can bond with dragons and I think it really ups the chances of Tyrion as a potential Targ.

http://www.tor.com/b...-and-the-greens

DANGEROUS WOMEN DISCUSSION:

FROM THE REVIEW:

Beyond all these little bits of Westerosi history repeating, we also get our first real glimpse of dragon-centric warfare, along with the problem of finding able riders. Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood, the story chronicles the search for bastard-born “dragonseeds” to join the fray (with mixed results)—a subplot which clearly holds some potential relevance for Daenerys and her trio of dragons as events continue to unfold in the novels

Ok! now we know that the grey joy captain has know chance of stealing Dany's dragons. That Tyrions chances just doubled, and maybe that Aegon has a chance being a bastard oh boy here we Go. Also this means Jon has a great chance of riding a Dragon of some kind.

So being of Targ descent is not only a prerequisite but a necessity. I think Tyrion rides that dragon.

[The Meereenese Knot]

I always find this theory astonishing.

Firstly, that a man like Tywin would stay Aerys' Hand for 8 years after Aerys possibly raped his beloved wife; and secondly that if such an event took place nobody in the entire kingdom heard so much as a whisper about it.

Even though his Kingsguards certainly heard when Aerys raped his own wife.

Aside from the fact that Tywin biggest fear is bieng made a fool, so what would make him look more afool than allowing his wife to be raped (at least in the masogynistic world of ASOIAF). Covering up to save face totally fits with Tywin.

[The Mother of The Others]

Haven't read everything, so sorry if repeating....

if Twyin knows Tyrion was fathered by the king, the Tysha rape debacle then becomes explainable. Tywin would have been taking revenge on the king's bastard Tyrion, saying "take this!" in a way that stopped short of killing Tyrion, because Tywin knew it ultimately wasn't Tyrion's fault the king was an ass. But Twyin didn't want Tyrion's life to be happy, because that would have been like a victory for Aerys' seed at Tywin's expense, right in front of him. So, with the weird rape scene of Tysha, Tywin made sure Tyrion experienced the same loss of control over his loved one's sexuality that Tywin was forced to endure. In a strange way, he visited the mad king's sins back upon Aerys' offspring, in that eye for an eye way of ancient justice. All the while keeping quiet about Tyrion's true parentage, because that would have just made the humiliation worse by taking it public. So it was kept in house and Tywin vented his frustration in that weird weird weird way.

[Lord Varys]

Mother of Others,

yeah, that would make perfect sense. And it would also illuminate whatever happened between Tywin and Shae. It is very odd to imagine a father to have sex with the whore/mistress of his son in the very night before said father is going to execute said son. But this can also be seen as some sort of secret revenge on Aerys/the Targaryen dynasty. We should keep in mind that a man of Tywin's intelligence should have been able to cope with both the fact that his son was born a dwarf and that he killed his mother during his birth. The latter happens all the time in Westeros.

But somehow he could not. Tywin's issues with his father explain why he felt the need to keep his own sexual adventures a secret, but this does not explain why he chose Shae of all women to have fun with. This makes little sense.

If Tywin knew the truth, then the very fact that Tyrion was born a dwarf may have actually provided him with the smokescreen to mistreat and abuse his son - something he could not have done all that easily if Tyrion had grown into a second Jaime. It fits perfectly with Tywin's character to not murder a child of Joanna's and raising a royal bastard as his son. It would prevent a scandal and/or deflect harm from House Lannister. If Tyrion is Aerys' son, his sudden and mysterious death may have caused the king to recognize the boy as his bastard. Which could have given Aerys pretext to accuse Tywin of murder and/or to fire him as Hand. Tywin was biding his time to marry Cersei to Rhaegar. He had little to no interest to provoke Aerys at this time.

[Albirich]

If Tyrion was the son of the Mad King wouldn't his hair be as Daenarys'? Also wouldn't he have purple eyes? Or maybe not since it wouldn't be pure anymore, but if Tywin knew that Tyrion was a targaryen I bet he'd kill him without much hesitation

[Ser Greg of House House]

I believe there are enough hints to at least be suspicious that Tyrion may be a Targ bastard.

But... I don't think Tywin knew. I don't think Tyrion will ever know.

[Maia]

If Tyrion was the son of the Mad King wouldn't his hair be as Daenarys'?

His hair is like Prince Maekar's in "The Hedge Knight" - so fair that it looks white. It is one of the pieces of evidence for the theory.

Varys:

If Tywin knew the truth, then the very fact that Tyrion was born a dwarf may have actually provided him with the smokescreen to mistreat and abuse his son - something he could not have done all that easily if Tyrion had grown into a second Jaime.

Exactly! I also think that if Tyrion had been "normal", it may have actually been worse for him, if the Targ bastard theory is true. Because Tywin still wouldn't have hated Tyrion any less and it would have been obviously too risky for Lannister succession to keep him around.

As is, I think that Tyrion proving himself as a ruler and making a claim on CR was the main reason for Tywin letting him get condemned for Joff's murder.

I think that Tywin had known, but not from the beginning. At some point he must have put the clues together, though. He did strongly hint to Tyrion that he considered him a bastard, i.e. the infamous "I cannot _prove_ that you are not mine" line and he compared Tyrion to Aerys.

And it is not like Aerys was his catch-all for unworthy behavior - when Joff acted up and insulted him, Tywin compared Joff to Robert! Whom Tywin disdained too, sure, but whom he also considered to have been Joff's sire.

[Lord Varys]

My assumption was always that if Tyrion is Aerys' son, then there was at least one occasion of consensual sex between Joanna and Aerys. The whole rape idea many people seem to push makes little sense to me. Tyrion was born six years or so before the Tourney of Harrenhal (Cersei and Jaime were nine years old when Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock with their mother). Back then the relationship between Aerys and his Hand was still very good. There would have been little to no reason for Aerys to humiliate Tywin by raping his wife. On the other hand, it's not impossible that Lady Joanna did not love Tywin as much as he loved her. In fact, we don't know if she loved him at all. It's not impossible that she was forced into that marriage. And we do know from Lady Genna that she did not like the man Tywin grew into. This may have extended to Joanna, as well.

Then we do know that Aerys was amiable and charming when he wanted to, and if he was attracted to Joanna later on as well as when Tywin married her, it's easily imaginable that he may have seduced her eventually. Especially if Joanna and Tywin became estranged later on in their marriage. The very fact that Joanna gave birth to no children between the twins and Tyrion could indicate that there was little or no sexual intercourse for quite some time (the other options would be plenty of miscarriages and stillborns, but we have not heard anything about that yet - I think we would have, if there had been any, we do know a lot about Greyjoy, Tully, Martell, and Arryn miscarriages).

If Joanna refused to share her bed with Tywin later during their marriage this very fact alone would have been enough to confirm that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. But this does not have to be the case, although I can easily imagine it.

[o__0]

don't the Lannisters have some Targ ancestry somewhere?

[corbon]

don't the Lannisters have some Targ ancestry somewhere?

Not that we know of.

[Ygrain]

My assumption was always that if Tyrion is Aerys' son, then there was at least one occasion of consensual sex between Joanna and Aerys. The whole rape idea many people seem to push makes little sense to me. Tyrion was born six years or so before the Tourney of Harrenhal (Cersei and Jaime were nine years old when Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock with their mother). Back then the relationship between Aerys and his Hand was still very good. There would have been little to no reason for Aerys to humiliate Tywin by raping his wife. On the other hand, it's not impossible that Lady Joanna did not love Tywin as much as he loved her. In fact, we don't know if she loved him at all. It's not impossible that she was forced into that marriage. And we do know from Lady Genna that she did not like the man Tywin grew into. This may have extended to Joanna, as well.

Then we do know that Aerys was amiable and charming when he wanted to, and if he was attracted to Joanna later on as well as when Tywin married her, it's easily imaginable that he may have seduced her eventually. Especially if Joanna and Tywin became estranged later on in their marriage. The very fact that Joanna gave birth to no children between the twins and Tyrion could indicate that there was little or no sexual intercourse for quite some time (the other options would be plenty of miscarriages and stillborns, but we have not heard anything about that yet - I think we would have, if there had been any, we do know a lot about Greyjoy, Tully, Martell, and Arryn miscarriages).

If Joanna refused to share her bed with Tywin later during their marriage this very fact alone would have been enough to confirm that Tyrion is not Tywin's son. But this does not have to be the case, although I can easily imagine it.

An interesting idea, and quite plausible. Aerys and Rhaella didn't get on, either, and the long pauses between their offspring also indicate infrequent intercourses. A consensual affair with Joanna would also flesh out Aerys' character beyond the cartoonish Mad King. It would take place before the Defiance of Duskendale, so he was still quite in his senses... really, and enticing thought.

[Bael's Bastard]

If Tyrion was the son of the Mad King wouldn't his hair be as Daenarys'? Also wouldn't he have purple eyes? Or maybe not since it wouldn't be pure anymore, but if Tywin knew that Tyrion was a targaryen I bet he'd kill him without much hesitation

Though it appears to vary with later children, it seems to me that the first child of Targaryen father and non-Targaryen mother tend to take after the mother more, at least when it comes to hair and eye color.

Baelor Breakspear's hair took after his Dornish mother's (not sure about his eyes)

Aegor Rivers' has dark hair, though his eyes take after his Targaryen father

Rhaenys is said to have taken after her Dornish mother

Jon Snow (if he is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son) takes after his mother

In the case of Targaryen mother and Dornish father, I am not sure we are given descriptions of the children of Daenerys and the Martell.

Maekar's first son Daeron is said to have sandy brown hair, while his father (the fourth son of Daeron II and Myriah) had the typical Targaryen hair. Not sure if his mother or her looks are ever described, but I imagine he takes more after her in that area.

I am not sure if we have explicit examples of Lannisters and Targaryens and descriptions of their children.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I hadn't thought of Tyrion being a Targ before coming here, but the more I think about it, the more I like this theory ! First, I don't find it lessens the powerful feelings between Tywin and Tyrion, even if Tywin knows, Tyrion clearly doesn't and take Tywin for his father, but it would prevent Tyrion for actually having killed his real father.

Then it would clear the path for Dany, Jon and Tyrion being the three riders of the three dragons. I also think a lot of things are foreshadowed since the very beginning of the first novel, Three early mentions of dragons in aGoT :

1) Daenerys thinking of Viserys' "waking the dragon" in Daenerys I

2) Jon having the Young Dragon for hero in Jon I

3) Tyrion having a morbid fascination with dragons in Tyrion II

And finally, something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread : in his first full appearance in Jon I, what is Tyrion talking about : bastards. "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes" indeed : what if the real bastard in this scene wasn't Jon after all ?

[Musashisamurai]

Tyrion is Tywins son the same way Jon is Ned's son. Jon acts (and looks) more like Ned than Robb, Rickon, and Brandon. But he is (if Rhaegar's the dad) not actually Tywin's son. Anyways, itd look bad if Tywin killed his third son, bevause he'd never admit Joanna was raped and he wouldnt commit kinslaying himself (just orchestrate it)

[trepesoa]

The back and forth on this topic does get tiresome to read, as does the “if Martin does this, I’ll stop reading” regardless of whether it's for A+J=T or A+J=C+J.

I’ll state up front I’m an A+J=T fan and opposed to the A+J=C+J suggestions.

To attempt to briefly summarize before launching in to my additional support:

- Tyrion's fascination and dreaming of dragons as a child (which seems to be similar to dreams shared by Targaryens)
- Tywin's intense dislike of him, even before his first sexual misadventure with Tysha.
- Tywin's tense departure from King's Landing as King’s Hand and his brooding over the 'wrongs that Aerys did him'.
- The fact that we are told that Aerys 'envied' Tywin.
- The brutal way with which Tywin treated the Targaryens in King's Landing and the city itself.
- Tyrion's hair and eye color.
- Tywin's comment that he could not prove Tyrion is not his son
- Tywin’s dying words “You … you are no … no son of mine”.
- Selmy’s revelation that Aerys was randy for Joanna
- Suggestion that Targaryeans are immune to disease/poison (Bealor the blessed walks through pit of vipers, Danny does not catch pale mare, Tyrion does not catch greyscale)
- AGOT Direwolf unusual dislike of Tyrion when he returns from the wall and passes back through Winterfell

- Tryion likes his bacon burnt

- If Tyrion is Targ, then he's not a kinslayer and can avoid kinslayer "curse"
- Revelation that Dragons only bind with Targ blood humans (which is different than “letting” a non Targ ride them)

In case you missed that last one, it’s from the most recent Dangerous Women book which is about the first Dance of Dragons Civil War about 170 years earlier than AGOT events. A reviewer summarized part of the synopsis as such:

“Beyond all these little bits of Westerosi history repeating, we also get our first real glimpse of dragon-centric warfare, along with the problem of finding able riders. Since dragons will only accept and bond with riders of Targaryen blood, the story chronicles the search for bastard-born “dragonseeds” to join the fray (with mixed results)—a subplot which clearly holds some potential relevance for Daenerys and her trio of dragons as events continue to unfold in the novels…”

So we definitely need hidden Targaryens, but we only need three. Danny is obvious, Jon slightly less so but almost universally accepted. Is the third Tyrion or Aegon (my assumption is Aegon is real but based solely on Varys’s speech with Ser Kevan. No point in lying to a dying man).

New points no one has made in this thread yet

1. Compare Aegon conquerer with 2 sisters vs Daenerys the conqueror with 2 “brothers”
2. Tyrion “knows” how to construct saddles, for unusual riders. He’ll be constructing saddles for unusual mounts soon too. Shape the horse to the rider
3. Tyrion knows more about dragons than possibly anyone alive including some aspects of dragon mating which would be helpful in leading to more eggs. Keep in mind Maester Marwyn is on his way to Danny too, ideally with some of those snazy glass candle communication devices
4. Tyrion, unlike Aegon, meets the requirements for AAR ie reborn under a bleeding star amidst smoke and salt - amazing how none of his wounds got infected. Obviously Danny fulfills this too as does Jon (referencing of course the sigil of Ser Patrek Mallister - we just need to wait for the rebirth part still)
5. Not being Lannister gets Tyrion out of all of Brown Ben Plumm's signatory notes

The real stumbling block is the “reveal”. How can GRRM successfully convince readers when there are no living corroborators like for Jon (Howland Reed, not to mention Bran’s ability to review the past like when Eddard prays to the hearth tree that Robb and Jon will grow up together as brothers. I’m sure Ned spilled the whole secret to the hearth tree)

Thankfully, GRRM has been preparing us for the grand reveal all along

1. Dragons sense Targaryen blood, no matter how small
   1. Brown Ben Plumm
   2. Quentyn Martel

Is it possible that Drogon arrives to the arena when he does because he senses two Targaryens in close proximity? The other two dragons are still “imprisoned” under the pyramid but Drogon is free and the timing seems less than coincidental that he arrive shortly after Tyrion departs Danny’s presence (indeed, Tyrion is probably still very close to Danny just underneath the stadium grounds rather than above them)

1. Dragon binding requires a “magic” horn and blood and fire
   1. Victarion, coincidently enough has such a magic horn with him on his ship
   2. He is off the coast of Yaros perhaps a day or two of sailing from Yunkai
   3. How convenient that some “useless frog of a character” has just engineered the release of the other two dragons from their prison and they are now free to fly at will around the city (it's almost like Quentyn's character suddenly has a point?!? not jjust any Targ blood will work, set dragons free, further eliminate primary house lines to make Targ royal line acceptance "simpler")
   4. Danny has just re-encountered the Dothraki, who will be eager to sack Mehreen when they hear of how weak the Yunkai armies are after riding the pale mare
   5. In short, Yunkish forces will be beset by land, sea, and air in the first battle to include dragons since before the Blackfyre rebellion.

So, how will it play out? First, we need the battle. Enter the Dothraki forces in a surprise attack. Lo and behold Martin has already given us a paragraph of a Tyrion chapter from the next book where he hears repeated calls of alarm of “to horse” implying a cavalry charge is inbound. Next, we need blood, so Tyrion will take some kind of a wound, nothing deadly or mortal but enough to slow him down and cause him to bleed. Third a dragon, enter Drogon being ridden by Danny, and naturally Rheagal and Viseryion will join the fray. A dragon (my vote is for Rheagal since he is green), will land close to Tyrion in his wounded state to feast on some creature, horse, elephent, whatever. Selmy and the forces in side Mehreen will open the gates and fight as well. The sellswords, remnants of previous Bittersteel rebellions will switch to the side with dragons, aka the winning side. Finally, the horn is sounded by Victarion (under the guidance of Moqorro, either someone else will sound the horn or a lot of blood will be spilt first) upon seeing the dragons in the field. And voila – suddenly dragon near Tyrion binds to Tyrion. GRRM doesn’t have to go through an elaborate introduction of unknown characters to convince the reader that T=T. The dragons will settle it. Aftermath of the battle, as Danny travels East, Selmy and Tyrion, and Danny can discuss, amoungst other things what the chronology of events were leading to Tyrions birth, confirming that he is indeed Targ bastard to Joanna, Tywin is not his father, Jaime/Cersie are half siblings, he’s not a kinslayer, but all of this can be after the grand reveal, rather than before.

Not only does Danny finally get out of Mehreen, but now she’ll also have a fleet of 60 ships to aid in transporting her army across to Westeros, thanks to Victarion.

Think this is far-fetched? Think Tyrion’s dragon dreams are the same as the dreams of any child for a pony? Think again:

ADWD Tryion II:
“That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.”

Remember Tyrion doesn’t know that Barristan the Bold is with Danny when he has this dream. He’s going to kill his father again because he’s going to learn that Tywin isn’t his father, and killing Jaime is symbolic of J+C being half siblings not full (sorry fans of A+J=C+J isn’t happening). The Lannister half cries and the Targaryen half laughs.

GRRM is a storytelling master. That’s all there is too it.

[jet199]

don't the Lannisters have some Targ ancestry somewhere?

I think there is going to be a Targ/Lannister link revealed in TWOIAF, probably a Plumm, and it may never be confirmed in book, if a Lannister rides a dragon, whether it was due to a distant link or a more recent one.

[Ilúvatar]

Even if this is plausible, I don't think it's a good twist for the series. It would just come across as a cheap way of glorifying the three most popular characters. I much prefer Tyrion as a loathed and misunderstood Lannister.

[Kienn]

I think there is going to be a Targ/Lannister link revealed in TWOIAF, probably a Plumm, and it may never be confirmed in book, if a Lannister rides a dragon, whether it was due to a distant link or a more recent one.

Much more recent IMO