Tyrion as a Targaryen

[oursisthefury69]

@Paperweaver Not really noticing any "targ recessive features" In the Martells or Baratheons, and any parallels between the Targs and Lannisters certainly wont be answered by " X unknown ancestor that somehow hasn't been mentioned yet but is the sole reason fr any and all Lannister-Targ parallels."

Jaime and Cersie parrallel the Targs because they have the same high ranking positions at court, as well as a similar superiority complex (instilled by ambitious were better than everyone Tywin) resulting in their "we'll do whatever we please" attitude.

[Lord Varys]

On the hair color thing:

Wasn't GRRM's original conception that not only silver-gold hair and purple eyes are Valyrian features, but coal-black hair and blue eyes as well? I remember I've read something like that somewhere, although never in an actual book. But even if that is some sort of 'urban GRRM-legend', Tyrion's dark hair could easily be a heirloom of Joanna's mother, or Aerys' mother or grandmother (both of which are most likely non-Targaryens, although not necessarily non-Valyrians).

The chances that one of Viserys Plumm's children - or of Elaena's children by her other husbands - did marry into the Lannister line is possible, I guess, although it would then have to Damon Lannister's wife - Tybolt's daughter didn't live, and we know the mother of Gerold's children. That would be four generations to Tywin's children. Tyrion mentions that Brown Ben must be descended from one of the younger sons of Viserys Plumm. That could indicate that there were no daughters.

[Mithras]

@Paperweaver Not really noticing any "targ recessive features" In the Martells or Baratheons,

Perhaps it is because they are recessive and only incestuous breeding reveals them?

and any parallels between the Targs and Lannisters certainly wont be answered by " X unknown ancestor that somehow hasn't been mentioned yet but is the sole reason fr any and all Lannister-Targ parallels."

The Targaryen ancestry of the Plumms is implied and recited by all the three Lannister siblings as I gave here. Lords Paramount most of the time marry with their bannermen. A Plumm lady with a Targaryen bride is desirable, as the sons of a Lord Paramount. A Targaryen princess is most desirable. GRRM revealed that Eleana married three times and even before that she had bastards. GRRM does not reveal everything before the time comes. So, it is not out of thin air. There is a good possibility for this.

The Targaryens always married with their sisters or cousins. If no such bride was available, they married to a Velaryon. And then they tried to marry a house having Valyrian Blood through the female line. They sometimes agreed to a political marriage as in the case of Myriah Martell.

In short, while Aerys was looking for a bride for Rhaegar, Tywin realistically expected Cersei to be the perfect choice. That means she must have the Valyrian Blood comparable to Elia.

[oursisthefury69]

@PaperWeaver Ok why don't you respond to an actual piece of text such as the quotes I just posted a few comments ago, referring to how death doesn't go into a dragons mouth.... ; Instead of completely sidestepping any and everything from the text like anybody against Tyrion not being Tywins son, and ony focusing on the ridiculous such as "It would ruin his whole relationship dynamic with Tywin" (A personal opinion, and completely hypocritical by anybody who also believes in R+L=J) or "any explanation of a Lannister (Tyrion) displaying overt Targaryen traits will come from some unimportant hypothetical marriage by an ancestor to a Plumm."

[Mithras]

@PaperWeaver Ok why don't you respond to an actual piece of text such as the quotes I just posted a few comments ago, referring to how death doesn't go into a dragons mouth.... ; Instead of completely sidestepping any and everything from the text like anybody against Tyrion not being Tywins son, and ony focusing on the ridiculous such as "It would ruin his whole relationship dynamic with Tywin" (A personal opinion, and completely hypocritical by anybody who also believes in R+L=J) or "any explanation of a Lannister (Tyrion) displaying overt Targaryen traits will come from some unimportant hypothetical marriage by an ancestor to a Plumm."

Tyrion's mouth is not his only opening. Even if death did not go in his mouth, it must have gone in through his ears and nose because he was fully immersed in the river. I don’t think that quote proves that Tyrion is a dragon. That is a stretch IMO. I think he is infected with greyscale and turning to stone from inside.

Besides, you cannot call the possible marriage to a Plumm as unimportant.

[Maia]

Besides, you cannot call the possible marriage to a Plumm as unimportant.

On the contrary, I'd say that it would have been so potentially important, that we should have already heard about it. But not only didn't Tyrion mention it when talking to Brown Ben, nor did Jaime think about it when talking to Rennifer Longwaters, but the Westerlands reading from the World book was yet another missed opportunity in that regard. Sure, it can't be definitely proven that there aren't _any_ post-Elaena Plumms in the Lannister pedigree at this time... but from literary point of view they should have already been inserted, if it is going to be an important plot point.

Revelation of Tywin's and Joanna's mothers and a shared grandmother was a perfect opportunity for something like this, yet GRRM went out of his way to make them belong to other Houses.

Speaking of Elaena's legitimate daughters and granddaughters, it wouldn't surprise me, if they were all absorbed back into House Targaryen. Daeron II had lots of sons and grandsons, after all.

In ADWD GRRM writes that strands of hair "pale blond and black" clung to Tyrion's brow. He has black hair in his scalp hair as well..

This must be a mistake, though, because none of the prior descriptions of Tyrion feature it.

[Greymoon]

This must be a mistake, though, because none of the prior descriptions of Tyrion feature it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109906-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v5/page-19

Bori said: (post 371)

Yeah, I checked it because it was quite strange and found that now (as of ADwD) it is mixed. But his poor hair has a complicated color-changing history.

Based on Oberyn's comment quoted above, he was born with black hair.

"You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp" ASoS Ch 38, Tyrion

Then his hair became white-blond.

"One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white." AGoT Ch 5, Jon

Then it became blond and black.

"Tyrion gave Penny’s shoulder a squeeze. Strands of hair, pale blond and black, clung to his brow, the rags of his tunic to his back." ADwD Ch 47, Tyrion

So, he has color-changing hair :D

On a side-note: he also have black streaks in his beard (but beard's color often differs from the hair color in RL).

"He had let his beard grow to cover his pushed-in face, until it was a bristly tangle of yellow and black hair, coarse as wire." ACoK Ch 2, Sansa

The solution to this dilemma -- is that in the Jon chapter GRRM is describing only "a lank fall of hair" and that fall is blond... if there was a mistake with Tyrion's hair, then the mistake was in Jon's GoT chapter imo (or GRRM changed his mind)...

[bent branch]

On the contrary, I'd say that it would have been so potentially important, that we should have already heard about it. But not only didn't Tyrion mention it when talking to Brown Ben, nor did Jaime think about it when talking to Rennifer Longwaters, but the Westerlands reading from the World book was yet another missed opportunity in that regard. Sure, it can't be definitely proven that there aren't _any_ post-Elaena Plumms in the Lannister pedigree at this time... but from literary point of view they should have already been inserted, if it is going to be an important plot point.

Revelation of Tywin's and Joanna's mothers and a shared grandmother was a perfect opportunity for something like this, yet GRRM went out of his way to make them belong to other Houses.

Speaking of Elaena's legitimate daughters and granddaughters, it wouldn't surprise me, if they were all absorbed back into House Targaryen. Daeron II had lots of sons and grandsons, after all.

This must be a mistake, though, because none of the prior descriptions of Tyrion feature it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/109906-wow-i-never-noticed-that-v5/page-19

Bori said: (post 371)

The solution to this dilemma -- is that in the Jon chapter GRRM is describing only "a lank fall of hair" and that fall is blond... if there was a mistake with Tyrion's hair, then the mistake was in Jon's GoT chapter imo (or GRRM changed his mind)...

There does indeed seem to be some disconnect in the color of Tyrion's hair. Addressing the issue of Tyrion being born with black fuzz on his head, my eldest was born with short black hair which fell out over the course of a couple of days when she was about one month old. When her hair grew back in it was blond. The pediatrician said this wasn't uncommon.

Of the discrepancy in the descriptions of his adult hair, I would tend to think the first description is the correct one since GRRM is more likely to have something specific in mind for his first introduction of Tyrion and just forget what he had established earlier when writing later. I would think he remembered giving Tyrion a yellow and black beard and then went with that for his hair later. Or he could have just changed his mind.

[oursisthefury69]

@PaperWeaver

1. your telling me what im saying is "a stretch" while responding with "I think he (tyrion) is infected with greyscale and turning to stone from the inside." A "stretch" would be claiming a point mute based on you "thinking" a Pov character who hasn't shown signs or thoughts of having contracted greyscale actually has greyscale and somehow hiding it from us, while another Pov (Connington) who only helped save Tyrion from the river has already contracted it.

2. "Besides, you cannot call a possible marriage to a Plumm as unimportant."

I unequivocally can say that a hypothetical marriage to house Plumm by a Lannister ancestor is entirely unimportant

[Mithras]

@PaperWeaver

1. your telling me what im saying is "a stretch" while responding with "I think he (tyrion) is infected with greyscale and turning to stone from the inside." A "stretch" would be claiming a point mute based on you "thinking" a Pov character who hasn't shown signs or thoughts of having contracted greyscale actually has greyscale and somehow hiding it from us, while another Pov (Connington) who only helped save Tyrion from the river has already contracted it.

2. "Besides, you cannot call a possible marriage to a Plumm as unimportant."

I unequivocally can say that a hypothetical marriage to house Plumm by a Lannister ancestor is entirely unimportant

1. Haldon clearly said he would never be safe from greyscale and could be turning to stone from inside already. GRRM did not give that information for no reason. He can pull the greyscale card at any moment. If he does that, what will happen to your theory that Tyrion is a dragon because death does not go in a dragon’s mouth? A character does not show the signs of greyscale or thinks about it until he realizes that he has greyscale and the afflicted can live for years even a decade.

2. That is your opinion.

On the contrary, I'd say that it would have been so potentially important, that we should have already heard about it. But not only didn't Tyrion mention it when talking to Brown Ben, nor did Jaime think about it when talking to Rennifer Longwaters, but the Westerlands reading from the World book was yet another missed opportunity in that regard. Sure, it can't be definitely proven that there aren't _any_ post-Elaena Plumms in the Lannister pedigree at this time... but from literary point of view they should have already been inserted, if it is going to be an important plot point.

Revelation of Tywin's and Joanna's mothers and a shared grandmother was a perfect opportunity for something like this, yet GRRM went out of his way to make them belong to other Houses.

Speaking of Elaena's legitimate daughters and granddaughters, it wouldn't surprise me, if they were all absorbed back into House Targaryen. Daeron II had lots of sons and grandsons, after all.

Of course it is very important but we do not learn such information until GRRM needs to tell us. So, the fact that it was not confirmed so far does not mean that it is impossible.

I also think there is room and reasonable evidence to suspect this.

“You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

This is given in AGoT where we do not even know the Targaryen grandmother of Robert.

The usual way to replace a House is to claim their lands throguh the female line, which is sometimes carried out by marrying the last female descendant of the former House. This way, not only one gets a legal claim to the lands and titles of the former House, he also gains the acceptance of the people of the former House because blood is important for the common folk. We have lots of examples for that.

For example Lancel was supposed to own the lands of the former House Darry through his wife Amerei Frey, who has the Darry blood in the female line. Kevan thought of uniting the Lannister lion and Darry plowman in his sigil for the new House Lannister of Darry.

We have other examples like Orys marrying the daughter of the last Storm King, Stark marrying the daughter of the Marsh king and conquering his lands etc.

As a result, both the Starks and the Arryns should have a distant blood relation to Targaryens to have a speakeable claim to the IT because that is what the text implies. We know that Arryns married a Targaryen princess and thus have Targaryen blood. When Aemma Arryn married Viserys I, she already had some Targaryen blood.

The Targaryen blood of the Starks is still unknown. I think they married a Targaryen princess around the same time with the Arryns. The king who bent the knee may have been rewarded like that. Aegon was generous to who bent knee to him without a fight.

There is also a more crackpot possibility that Starks have Targaryen blood through Prince Duncan Targaryen, who was disinherited after marrying Jenny of Oldstones, who was actually a Flint of the Mountains and their daughter Arya Flint was married to Rodrik Stark and their daughter Lyarra Stark was married to Rickard Stark. This means Brandon should have Targaryen blood through his mother and perhaps that is the reason why he was strangled by Aerys, because the royal blood should not be spilled. This is a speculation but it is not baseless.

Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father’s mother . . .

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert.”

The Targaryen heritage of Baratheons is plainly written in the text in AFfC. There was a reason for it because although they have Targaryen blood from a recent ancestor, Aemon realized that Stannis is not the prince that was promised.

Therefore, GRRM reveals such knowledge only when it was needed and there is the room for a Targaryen ancestor of Lannisters. In the same Feast, GRRM reveals the story of Ossifer Plumm and Eleana Targaryen indirectly through Jaime and Cersei. Even before that, we learn that an ancestor of Brown Ben Plumm was married to a Targaryen princess in ASoS, who was most probably Eleana Targaryen. So, the mention of Eleana's offspring preceeded the confirmation of the Rhaelle's line. In ADwD, we learn more about the Plumm history through Tyrion when he encounters BBP.

I think this is the way of GRRM pointing a possible Targaryen heritage of the Lannisters until he plainly writes it in the text.

[7th-key]

"You are not my son... " says Ned to Bran in one of the early chapters " you are a squirrel". Though it's true that Bran might end up in a tree, I doubt there will be parentage issues. :D

Anyway...

Hints and evidence aside, on a storytelling viewpoint, I'd feel Tyrion being a Targ would be a bit fairytale-y. While were it the case for Jaime and Cersei, it would entail so many ironies.

Just take Tywin.

In the case of the former, he'd been proven right and justified (in his own logic) of his resenting of Tyrion.

In the latter he'd have wasted all his resources on someone else's bastards, ignoring his true heir.

Isn't irony a sweeter revenge than a gruesome death? :)

[Greymoon]

There does indeed seem to be some disconnect in the color of Tyrion's hair. Addressing the issue of Tyrion being born with black fuzz on his head, my eldest was born with short black hair which fell out over the course of a couple of days when she was about one month old. When her hair grew back in it was blond. The pediatrician said this wasn't uncommon.

Of the discrepancy in the descriptions of his adult hair, I would tend to think the first description is the correct one since GRRM is more likely to have something specific in mind for his first introduction of Tyrion and just forget what he had established earlier when writing later. I would think he remembered giving Tyrion a yellow and black beard and then went with that for his hair later. Or he could have just changed his mind.

I'm assuming there's dark hair in your family otherwise, though yeah? I had the same happening to a cousin of mine, her hair changes depending on the seasons... a lot has to do with hormones as well, women often have darker heir during pregnancy for ex. She was born with very dark brown hair -- now her hair is dark blond and it's gone through a few changes over the years.... one of her parents has dark brown hair (almost black) though and the other, very light blond hair -- it's not like the dark fuzz on her scalp came out of nowhere....

GRRM wrote both his beard and hair to be black and white blond, plus the black fuzz --- I honestly do not think that the later description of his white blond/black hair is a mistake. In the Jon chapter; I think it was an omission. "a lank fall of hair" =/= all of his hair... The lank white blond hair is falling over his mismatched eyes when Jon is looking at him; that doesn't mean that there are no black strands of hair atop his head -- only that there none at that specific time, falling before his eyes....

Is there a single instance in the book where Tyrion's hair is described as "blond all over"?

In any case, if GRRM made a mistake it quite simply means imo, that Tyrion's hair is not that important. Hence it is not meant as a clue one way or another. It's only if GRRM purposely wrote it that way -- and made no mistake, only omissions -- that the hair color can be considered as a clue imo.

[bent branch]

"You are not my son... " says Ned to Bran in one of the early chapters " you are a squirrel". Though it's true that Bran might end up in a tree, I doubt there will be parentage issues. :D

Anyway...

Hints and evidence aside, on a storytelling viewpoint, I'd feel Tyrion being a Targ would be a bit fairytale-y. While were it the case for Jaime and Cersei, it would entail so many ironies.

Just take Tywin.

In the case of the former, he'd been proven right and justified (in his own logic) of his resenting of Tyrion.

In the latter he'd have wasted all his resources on someone else's bastards, ignoring his true heir.

Isn't irony a sweeter revenge than a gruesome death? :)

The thing is, Tywin is dead. There isn't anything storywise to be gained in looking at the situation from Tywin's viewpoint. The question is, how would such a reveal affect those people in the story who are still alive? There is this from ADWD-Chapter 22:

A squad of Volantene spearmen stood guard at the river gate. Torchlight gleamed off the steel claws that jutted from their gauntlets. Their helms were tiger's masks, the faces beneath marked by green stripes tattooed across both cheeks. The slave soldiers of Volantis were fiercely proud of their tiger stripes, Tyrion knew. Do they yearn for freedom? he wondered. What would they do if this child queen bestowed it on them? What are they, if not tigers? What am I, if not a lion?

Tyrion takes pride in his Lannister heritage. He already feels the loss of being forcefully separated from that heritage. It is not going to be the freeing event that some people seem to envision if Tyrion finds out he is not Tywin's biological son. I don't understand how people think that Tyrion not being the biological son of Tywin will somehow make everything that came before meaningless. Especially when so many think that Ned will always be Jon's father no matter what is revealed about Jon's biological parents. It is a double standard that is incomprehensible to me. Yet it all seems to hinge on the idea of how it affects Tywin. Who is dead.

I'm assuming there's dark hair in your family otherwise, though yeah? I had the same happening to a cousin of mine, her hair changes depending on the seasons... a lot has to do with hormones as well, women often have darker heir during pregnancy for ex. She was born with very dark brown hair -- now her hair is dark blond and it's gone through a few changes over the years.... one of her parents has dark brown hair (almost black) though and the other, very light blond hair -- it's not like the dark fuzz on her scalp came out of nowhere....

GRRM wrote both his beard and hair to be black and white blond, plus the black fuzz --- I honestly do not think that the later description of his white blond/black hair is a mistake. In the Jon chapter; I think it was an omission. "a lank fall of hair" =/= all of his hair... The lank white blond hair is falling over his mismatched eyes when Jon is looking at him; that doesn't mean that there are no black strands of hair atop his head -- only that there none at that specific time, falling before his eyes....

Is there a single instance in the book where Tyrion's hair is described as "blond all over"?

In any case, if GRRM made a mistake it quite simply means imo, that Tyrion's hair is not that important. Hence it is not meant as a clue one way or another. It's only if GRRM purposely wrote it that way -- and made no mistake, only omissions -- that the hair color can be considered as a clue imo.

Well, I am one of eight children, four of whom were blonds, two redheads, one with dark brown hair and one with black hair. So, yes, we were all over the place as far as coloring. I was one of the redheads and my husband's hair was dark brown (we are both grey now). Both of my children are blonds. As you have pointed out, hair color at birth is affected by hormones, so hair at birth is not that strong of a signifier.

If the hair color is a continuity issue, then I am more inclined to believe the hair color that comes later is the one in error. I will however agree with you that if such errors occur in the text then Tyrion's hair color is probably not that important storywise.

I'm actually sorry that I even weighed in on this particular issue, because there are so many other things in the text that make me think Tyrion is a bastard. From the first time we meet Tyrion and he gives his "All dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes" right up through ADWD where the section quoted above is, GRRM keeps hinting that Tyrion is something other than what he appears. By the time I had finished the novels the first time and before I ever came on the forum I strongly suspected that Tyrion was indeed a bastard. All the discussions about hair and eyes are simply questioning whose bastard he is.

I am finishing up a re-read on Jon. After I have finished I think I will do a re-read on Tyrion and make note of all the mentions like the one above. If I find as many of them as I seem to remember I may post them on the forum. It is not any single one of these quotes (which individually can be explained away) that makes me think Tyrion is a bastard, but rather the sheer number of them.

Edited for formatting issues.

[Maia]

Tyrion takes pride in his Lannister heritage. He already feels the loss of being forcefully separated from that heritage. It is not going to be the freeing event that some people seem to envision if Tyrion finds out he is not Tywin's biological son. I don't understand how people think that Tyrion not being the biological son of Tywin will somehow make everything that came before meaningless. Especially when so many think that Ned will always be Jon's father no matter what is revealed about Jon's biological parents. It is a double standard that is incomprehensible to me. Yet it all seems to hinge on the idea of how it affects Tywin. Who is dead..

Couldn't have said it better. It isn't like Tyrion is going to find out that his biological father was Arthur Dayne. Aerys would hardly be an improvement over Tywin, and it is quite possible that Joanna was forced into sex with him, one way or another.

Additionally, Tyrion likes to ruminate over things that he thinks Tywin owed him, but didn't deliver on because of superficiality and assholishness - how would it affect him to learn that the shoe is on the other foot?

Not to mention that Tyrion being one of the heads of the dragon would fit the whole "outcasts, bastards and broken things" theme to a t. And yea, would add truly delicious irony to his interactions with Jon.

Nor would it free Tyrion from the burden of being considered a kinslayer, since he was condemned "by the gods" for the murder of Joffrey, who was indisputably his nephew and he was also stupidly claiming responsibility for it in his bitterness. Tywin as a first cousin once removed might have been a borderline case on the grounds of blood alone, but he did raise Tyrion and we saw Theon being considered a kinslayer for allegedly murdering his foster-brothers...

[Mithras]

Tyrion takes pride in his Lannister heritage. He already feels the loss of being forcefully separated from that heritage. It is not going to be the freeing event that some people seem to envision if Tyrion finds out he is not Tywin's biological son. I don't understand how people think that Tyrion not being the biological son of Tywin will somehow make everything that came before meaningless. Especially when so many think that Ned will always be Jon's father no matter what is revealed about Jon's biological parents. It is a double standard that is incomprehensible to me. Yet it all seems to hinge on the idea of how it affects Tywin. Who is dead.

Tyrion took pride from his Lannister heritage. His lifelong quest was to be loved, appreciated and given the CR which was his by rights. I don’t think he cared for the CR much; what he cared was that by giving the CR to Tyrion and appointing him as his heir, Tywin would accept him as an equal of his golden twins. But he denied him from that and humiliated him at every turn. Tyrion hit a low after killing Tywin.

Illyrio took him from that low and gave him a purpose. But Tyrion again found himself sinking even lower after Jorah kidnapped him.

Tyrion’s will to live was questionable during the ADwD but he decided he should live and take the CR and his revenge from Cersei. He is sharp and fierce and full of life as for the end of ADwD.

However, GRRM likes to torture his characters and every new problem he writes for them becomes tougher and tougher.

I think he started to understand that people will not love him and praise him whatever he does. But still, he might be again fooled by a character like Shae and dream of the love he will never get.

I think it is a fitting plot development for him if he realizes that he has no claim to CR at all, by being a bastard. It would be interesting to read his reaction to this.

Apart from the CR and the desire to be loved, all that remains is his vengeance upon Cersei and all who wronged him. At this position, Tyrion naturally transforms into a beast, a monster.

[Lord Varys]

Even if Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father - he was his step-father, and the husband of his mother. Killing him was still bad, although not as bad as it originally seemed. The murder of Shae was much worse - Tyrion should atone/suffer for that one, not so much for Tywin.

The revelation of Tyrion's true heritage should also more or less coincide with him becoming a dragonrider - this, in turn, will open new possibilities for him. He'd want to connect/start relations with his true family (i.e. Dany and Aegon - eventually perhaps Jon), and could also aim for the Iron Throne himself and/or the position of (one of the) Prince Consort(s) of Daenerys Targaryen.

Without such a change, Tyrion would either be only on revenge mode for the remainder of the series, or nothing but a sidekick helping resolving issues surrounding the dragons. That would not exactly be all that interesting. With his Targaryen heritage, Tyrion could also try to see a new purpose in life in this whole savior thing - especially since he has actually visited the Wall and the Night's Watch.

[Maia]

Apart from the CR and the desire to be loved, all that remains is his vengeance upon Cersei and all who wronged him. At this position, Tyrion naturally transforms into a beast, a monster.

Or finally learns to take satisfaction from the work well done, whether others praise him for it, or not. Basically, there are a lot of interesting directions that Tyrion could go once "Casterly Rock is mine by rights" schtick is knocked out of him.

In fact, his using the promise of CR to get the protection of and turn the Second Sons at the end of ADwD felt a bit like a regression.

Even if Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father - he was his step-father, and the husband of his mother. Killing him was still bad, although not as bad as it originally seemed.

Actually, I think that _if_ Tywin learned that Tyrion was a bastard at some point, yet still raised him as his son, then it would be worse. Tyrion is often blaming Tywin for failing in his duty as his father, and he has every reason to do so. But what if he learns that despite everything, Tywin actually went beyond the call of duty as Westerosi society would see it?

IMHO, it could be a very interesting reversal and one of the ways in which learning the truth wouldn't "free" Tyrion of all the previous messiness and unpleasantness concerning his relationship with his Lannister family. It would give him a reason to feel legitimately guilty for Tywin's death.

IMHO, anyway. But then, I never understood Ivan Karamazov going crazy over whether he did or didn't say something that could have prompted his scum of a father's murder.

[Mithras]

I guess we will see but I really want Tyrion to get rid of being Emmon Frey about CR.

I think there is always the danger of being a villain for Tyrion.

Spoiler from TWoW Mercy chapter:

“Give me the cup,” he [bobono=Tyrion] told the Stranger, “for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion’s blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.”

Not only is this but Ulf the Sot, who turned his cloak and became a villain, is also designed as a parallel to Tyrion. In addition, there is also some Daemon Targaryen in Tyrion.

ETA: I also think being bonded to a dragon and becoming a dragonrider will take its toll on allt he riders. They will change just like warging is like a marriage and both the man and the wolf change.

[CersiGoesCrazy]

Yes, but not the black eye. It isn't just each thing individually, but all of them together.

1) Tyrion as white/blond hair. Like a Targ.

2) Tyrion dreams of Dragons. Like a Targ (Danym Daeron, + possibly others).

3) Tyrion's mother died giving birth to him. Like Dany and Jon.

4) Tyrion has a black eye (unlike Tommen). Where did he get it from? We know there is at least one character who had eyes that seemed black, but were really just dark purple, with a reference to dragonlords in the same paragraph, no less.

5) Tywin makes multiple references to him NOT being his son, and refuses to give him Casterly Rock, ever.

While I'm not saying this proves anything, but I am saying there are at least 5 pieces of evidence that point to it being possible. So I don't see how anyone can dismiss it, either.

[CersiGoesCrazy]

Looking at Aery's character....imo there have to be more secrets and bastards...its just what mad kings do!