Tyrion as a Targaryen

[The Killer Snark]

I'm just throwing this one out there, without being too much convinced with my own theory, but does anyone else think the Theon arc so far may be a big misdirect and that he might be Azor Ahai? 'Born amid smoke (Winterfell burning) and salt (the Iron Islands)'. If the miller's kids were Theon's, he sacrificed his own bloodline in order to go through torture and degradation, potentially to come out of it all as a stronger version of Theon. It may even be possible his mutilations are not permanent. He would be the leading candidate for taking Jon's place as another likely candidate in the case that Jon is really dead.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I'm just throwing this one out there, without being too much convinced with my own theory, but does anyone else think the Theon arc so far may be a big misdirect and that he might be Azor Ahai? 'Born amid smoke (Winterfell burning) and salt (the Iron Islands)'. If the miller's kids were Theon's, he sacrificed his own bloodline in order to go through torture and degradation, potentially to come out of it all as a stronger version of Theon. It may even be possible his mutilations are not permanent. He would be the leading candidate for taking Jon's place as another likely candidate in the case that Jon is really dead.

It's a possibility, provided that Azor Ahai Reborn is not supposed to be the same person as The Dragon that was Promised.

Unfortunately the few qualifiers we have for AAR at this point can be made to fit an awful lot of characters, but then again that's part of what makes the series so addictive. There's a really good thread on here somewhere about Jaime being AAR.

[The Killer Snark]

I remember a really funny one about Brienne being AA because people think she's a 'pig', and ham is made through smoke and salt. I replied that fighting a 'brune in salt and smock' could relate to her facing a bear while wearing a smock that was salty because it was smeared with blood.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I remember a really funny one about Brienne being AA because people think she's a 'pig', and ham is made through smoke and salt. I replied that fighting a 'brune in salt and smock' could relate to her facing a bear while wearing a smock that was salty because it was smeared with blood.

Great response to that! Actually the ham thing was part of the Jaime as AAR theory too. After Renly's line equating AAR with a ham somebody started paying attention and apparently the scene where Jaime (and Brienne I think) is dining with Roose Bolton, there's a ham on the table. Apparently that's evidence.

[The Killer Snark]

I can't remember why I posted the Theon/AA thing here. Oh yeah, a comment on misdirection. Just as Jon being a Targ is blatantly obvious, it could just be a set-up to distract attention from Tyrion being a Targ, in the event that there's also someone lurking there in the background close to Jon in some manner and more likely to be AA in the event of the death of Jon. I'm surprised that no-one has thrown up Tyrion as a likely candidate in the face of persuasive evidence he might be Targaryen, even though I think it's pretty unlikely overall. In the event he killed his 'father', there would have been merely a symbolic but no biological basis for , and no moral questioning regarding, the 'killing one's loved one' rule.

[JonisHenryTudor]

He's better off as a Lannister - making him a Targaryen would be a really lame twist.

Yes. If by stories end there are hundreds of hidden targs, I might puke.

[Wmarshal]

I never got any Targ feel from him, his dreams seem like regular dreams, and his birth would require Aerys naming him, be it GRRM stated his father named him.

[The Killer Snark]

To me, the clearest evidence apart from the difference in hair colour and the fact that Tywin always seems to have viewed him as a 'changeling', are the clues given in the Dunk and Egg tales regarding birth anomalies in Targ descendants as a delayed reaction to their inbreeding. Shiera Seastar's heterochromia is something that Martin at least expects will be picked up on. Listing a hunchbacked dwarf with hydrocephaly among Targ descendants in the Dunk and Egg tales, along with Shiera and Bloodraven the albino, would have been the equivalent of clobbering the reader over the head with a brick.

[Wmarshal]

Shiera is probably the only targ related person with heterochromia, and she has none targ mother, using her as example is fool hardy. Who is this hunch back dwarf you speak of? Bloodraven's skin has more to do with him being a greenseer.

[Lord Varys]

Hasn't there been talk that infant Tyrion had a tail? Many of the stillborn Targaryen monstrosities supposedly had tails, didn't they?

We don't know if Visenya (Rhaenyra's daughter) or Laena's stillborn would have grown into a dwarf. It's not unlikely.

The point in all of this is that GRRM does not want the reader to find out that Tyrion might be a Targaryen all that easily. Remember, if there had been clues, Tyrion himself would have grown suspicious - he is very perceptive, after all - and both the reader and Tyrion are supposed to believe that Tywin is Tyrion's father from AGoT to ASoS. That's the whole point of his arc.

There are very small hints, but they are always overshadowed by the overall feeling that Tyrion is Tywin's son. Tywin in particular would never want that anyone realizes the truth. He wants to protect his reputation. If he raised Aerys' bastard as his son, he would add another layer of ridicule to House Lannister.

In fact, Tyrion's Targaryen ancestry would explain a lot, among them:

1. The fact that Tywin does not want Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock. He won't allow a bastard to continue the main line of House Lannister, and to sit were only trueborn Lannisters should sit.

2. It would explain why Tywin would sentence Tyrion to death for regicide, and go through with this whole thing. No father would do that. But if Tywin had reason to believe that Tyrion was not his son, this fact would cloud his judgment . He would be willing to believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey, and he would also have a lot less scruples to sentence him to death. After all, he would not execute his biological son.

The Night's Watch was always an option. The trial-by-combat only decided that Tyrion was guilty, Tywin and the other judges decided the sentence, and it seems that Tywin was not offering Tyrion to take the Black (Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion himself believed that he would be executed on the morrow).

3. It really explains Tywin's last words.

[Wmarshal]

Yet he has no tail.

1. Okay, if this was the case Tyrion would be dead or Joanna would have aborted Tyrion. Not like people would have cared or wandered what happened to the dwarf.

2. No it doesn't, Tyrion got in that mess because of Cersei not Tywin, he did his job. So a grandfather would bend the law simply so a kingslayer may live?

The evidence damned Tyrion. False, but Tyrion did not give a strong case. And you know what, we still have no idea if Tywin would have sent him to the watch or not.

3. No it doesn't, he said the same to Jaime.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Shiera is probably the only targ related person with heterochromia, and she has none targ mother, using her as example is fool hardy. Who is this hunch back dwarf you speak of? Bloodraven's skin has more to do with him being a greenseer.

Albinism is inherited. It doesn't show up because you sit in a tree for a few decades. So no, BR's skin has nothing to do with him being a greenseer. He was an albino before. And there have been other greenseers in the history of Westeros, yet no one has mentioned them being albinos.

Yes. If by stories end there are hundreds of hidden targs, I might puke.

No worries. There might be a handful but there will not be hundreds. GRRM doesn't have time for too many of them to be revealed.

I never got any Targ feel from him, his dreams seem like regular dreams, and his birth would require Aerys naming him, be it GRRM stated his father named him.

Dragon dreams are not regular dreams in Westeros. The only other person who has no known connection to the targs who dreams about dragons is

that Toland (?) girl Arianne comes across on her way to meet Aegon in the TWoW chapter

and she could easily be a descendant of Aegon IV.

The name thing can be easily worked around. If you want to pull a fast one on Tywin Lannister regarding the paternity of one of his children, you give the kid a typically Lannister name. Aerys suggests it to Joanna, Joanna tells Tywin that's the name she wants to use if the baby is a boy. Joanna dies, Tywin honors her wish to call him Tyrion. Thus his father named him, either way. And why, oh why, does EVERYONE discount the chimera argument? If Tyrion is a tetragamic chimera, both men can be his father. I think he's 100% Lannister, but Targ bastardy is certainly a possible plot twist for him.

[Wmarshal]

Albinism is inherited. It doesn't show up because you sit in a tree for a few decades. So no, BR's skin has nothing to do with him being a greenseer. He was an albino before. And there have been other greenseers in the history of Westeros, yet no one has mentioned them being albinos.

No worries. There might be a handful but there will not be hundreds. GRRM doesn't have time for too many of them to be revealed.

Dragon dreams are not regular dreams in Westeros. The only other person who has no known connection to the targs who dreams about dragons is

that Toland (?) girl Arianne comes across on her way to meet Aegon in the TWoW chapter

and she could easily be a descendant of Aegon IV.

The name thing can be easily worked around. If you want to pull a fast one on Tywin Lannister regarding the paternity of one of his children, you give the kid a typically Lannister name. Aerys suggests it to Joanna, Joanna tells Tywin that's the name she wants to use if the baby is a boy. Joanna dies, Tywin honors her wish to call him Tyrion. Thus his father named him, either way. And why, oh why, does EVERYONE discount the chimera argument? If Tyrion is a tetragamic chimera, both men can be his father. I think he's 100% Lannister, but Targ bastardy is certainly a possible plot twist for him.

He always a greenseer, it is stated by the children that such look is not uncommon in greenseers.

Not seeing how me pointing out Tyrion has regular dreams is proven wrong here.

Why on earth would Joanna do that, or Aerys give a sh*t. Joanna loved Tywin and her, why would she keep Tyrion?

[Lord Varys]

The tail would have been cut off, of course.

Why should Joanna abort Tyrion, if she willingly slept with Aerys? Why should Tywin kill the child of the woman he loved more than everything in the world? No ever told us that Joanna Lannister was in love with Tywin. People seem to assume that this must have been the case because Tywin loved her and all, but this is not confirmed by the text.

If Tywin wanted to allow Tyrion to go to the Wall he could have given him that choice after the gods had declared him guilty. Instead, Tywin Lannister 'spoke the words than condemned him'. That means a death sentence.

People seem to believe that Cersei made the case against Tyrion, but that's wishful thinking. Tywin controlled the government. Tywin sat on the Iron Throne, and excluded Cersei from the Small Council, determined to claim the Regency for himself. He would have known everything what Cersei would do during the trial in advance, and he would have had any opportunity to interfere in favor of Tyrion if really thought he was innocent. Tywin was effectively King of Westeros in all but the name during the short time between Joff's death and his own. He could have done whatever the hell he wanted to do - among else, pay/force people to provide false evidence in favor of Tyrion (he would have done such a thing if he truly had believed that he was innocent, to get a reasonable pretext to let him off the hook),

[Wmarshal]

There was no evidence of a tail, and Oberyn and his sister saw no marks of one.

Why on Earth would she do that? It has been stated enough she and Tywin were in love. So all the talk of how prefect they were on involve they were with each other was lies?

Because after so many rapes and murders of people his family loved it is clear he just doesn't give a sh*t.

No it doesn't, he lost, those he is condemned.

No it isn't, that is a fact, from, Bronn to Shae, she staked everything against Tyrion. And schemed and plotted. Why would he? Tyrion brought no evidence to aid himself nor proved anyone liar. Why would do this? This is a trial of his son murdering his grandson. Tyrion did a piss poor job showing anyone he was innocent.

[Lord Varys]

No one said that Oberyn ever got the opportunity to inspect Tyrion's ass closely. I imagine the infant dwarf was lying on his back, concealing the wound the cut-off tail left.

Care to cite a text passage were it is stated that Joanna Lannister was madly in love with Tywin (or in love with Tywin at all)? You can't do that, since no such text passage exists. All we know is that Tywin was madly in love with (and ruled by) his wife.

A trial-by-battle determines guilt or innocence. The sentence is delivered afterwards (by the judges). Tywin sentenced Tyrion to death.

Cersei could do nothing without Tywin's approval at this point. Reread the last chapters of ASoS if you don't believe me. She goes to Jaime because Tywin is cutting off from any sort of power. If Cersei could build a very strong case against Tyrion - if Cersei was allowed to participate/influence the trial at all - she could do this only because Tywin allowed her to do it. Which means that he approved whatever she was doing. Which in turn means that he wanted Tyrion dead.

[Wmarshal]

Oeryn could see he had no tail, seriously, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei and Oberyn never ever said he had a tail, rumors from smallfolk is increbile weak.

In chapter 38 it was stated she was his most trusted counsel and companion.

When did he say, Tyrion, die.

So Cersei can have network of spies and 5 KG in her pocket during Games, but her acting alone in pushing people to accuse Tyrion is impossible?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Albinism is inherited. It doesn't show up because you sit in a tree for a few decades. So no, BR's skin has nothing to do with him being a greenseer. He was an albino before. And there have been other greenseers in the history of Westeros, yet no one has mentioned them being albinos.

No worries. There might be a handful but there will not be hundreds. GRRM doesn't have time for too many of them to be revealed.

Dragon dreams are not regular dreams in Westeros. The only other person who has no known connection to the targs who dreams about dragons is

that Toland (?) girl Arianne comes across on her way to meet Aegon in the TWoW chapter

and she could easily be a descendant of Aegon IV.

The name thing can be easily worked around. If you want to pull a fast one on Tywin Lannister regarding the paternity of one of his children, you give the kid a typically Lannister name. Aerys suggests it to Joanna, Joanna tells Tywin that's the name she wants to use if the baby is a boy. Joanna dies, Tywin honors her wish to call him Tyrion. Thus his father named him, either way. And why, oh why, does EVERYONE discount the chimera argument? If Tyrion is a tetragamic chimera, both men can be his father. I think he's 100% Lannister, but Targ bastardy is certainly a possible plot twist for him.

That would be dreadful. We would need a dozen volumes.

[Super Daario]

Yes. If by stories end there are hundreds of hidden targs, I might puke.

There are three Targs, I would think. No more, no less.

My suspicions are growing that 'Aegon' is not one of them. As well as my suspicions that Tyrion is possibly one of them...

It's been stated that 'Tyrion is Tywin written short' as sure proof that Tyrion is Tywin's son. But I'll throw this out there: perhaps 'Tyrion is Tywin written short' is due to Tyrion's intelligence, rather than his blood. In his interactions with his father we see that Tyrion has spent a lifetime studying Lord Tywin as he might study a book.

I find it interesting that the books keep reinforcing the idea that Tyrion is Tywin 2.0...but we know this really not so, because Tyrion has a conscience. Also there is Jaime's thoughts in AFFC that points to Jaime having more of his father in him than Aunt Gemma thinks. She can easily be wrong about both Jaime and Tyrion.

Compassion for misfits and outcasts is the one trait that is shared by these three characters in particular: Jon Snow, Dany Targaryen, and Tyrion. But definitely not one that Tywin ever possessed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

"You are not my son... " says Ned to Bran in one of the early chapters " you are a squirrel". Though it's true that Bran might end up in a tree, I doubt there will be parentage issues. :D

Anyway...

Hints and evidence aside, on a storytelling viewpoint, I'd feel Tyrion being a Targ would be a bit fairytale-y. While were it the case for Jaime and Cersei, it would entail so many ironies.

Just take Tywin.

In the case of the former, he'd been proven right and justified (in his own logic) of his resenting of Tyrion.

In the latter he'd have wasted all his resources on someone else's bastards, ignoring his true heir.

Isn't irony a sweeter revenge than a gruesome death? :)

yes but those were not NEd's dying words. Dying/last words are important in all literature. Tywin's last words do have meaning. whether or not Tywin knows that Aerys is Tyrions father does not matter. This is a message from GRRM to us directly.

Yes. If by stories end there are hundreds of hidden targs, I might puke.

You do realize that all 5 novellas are about the Targs right? They are the most important family in all the stories we have read so far. Targs and Starks

Targs are a gorgeous, firey bunch. They all look like the most attractive people you can think of.

If we have learned anything from PATQ and TRP it is that Targaryens are a horny bunch, most of the kings have multiple wives and tons of children (legit and bastards). Why would anyone think that there are suddenly no more bastards from this family of seriously attractive sex-craved dragonlords?