Tyrion as a Targaryen

[HexMachina]

There has to be a third Targ and it should be from the Aerys line given the prophesy. Who else could it be other than Tyrion?.

This is counter productive to the theory of Tyrion as a Targaryen. The only thing in the novels that mentions coming from the Targ line says from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, not just Aerys.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've read those threads, and unconvinced is an understatement. There's no evidence that Joanna was anywhere near Aerys at the time of Tyrion's conception. She lived at CR, we know this because that's where Cersei and Jaime were raised, and she raised them. Cersei didn't visit KL until after her mother's death.

Hair color can be explained by a Targ ancestor, which as a highly prominent house, is quite likely.

Bacon burnt black- lots of people eat their bacon that way, including my fiancé. He's no Targ.

Eyes? Sheira is the only given example of that defect and could have gotten it from her non Targ mother. Euron also has 2 different eyes, and he's no Targ. He's had 2 different eyes for a long time, before he started dabbling in sorcery, since Theon remembers them from childhood. He likely had them since birth. 2 different colored eyes are rare, but not that rare. Tyrion could share an ancestor with Sheira's mom or with Euron.

The "evidence" for this theory is flimsy at best. And the theory directly contradicts Tyrion's entire arc of trying to earn Tywin's love and respect as well as prove himself worthy of CR. If Tyrion isn't Tywin's, he has zero rights to CR.

Let me take your points one at a time:

We have no evidence of the location of Aerys or Joanna during the relevant period of time of Tyrion's conception, so that does not argue for or against the theory. The point is that at least we don't have any information that makes it impossible for them to have been at the same place at that time.

I think that the WOIAF coming out later this year may answer whether there is a known Targ ancestor in the Lannister line, but given that both Tywin and Joanna are not from a far removed branch of the Lannister line but rather from the main branch (obviously for Tywin) or very near the main branch (for Joanna, as Tywin's first cousin), the chances of Targ influence is diminished with respect to any Targ influence from a male Targ (i.e., no known Targ bastards in that line--not that you are suggesting this--just eliminating the possibility) and as to a female Targ marrying into the Lannister line--we have a pretty good history of where Targ women have become part of other Houses (Martell, Plumm, Longwaters,Barratheon) and none of that information suggests a Lannister marriage. Given that we have been told of these other inter-marriages, I would have thought a marriage with a Lannister would have been revealed by now.

As far as some of the other clues such as liking bacon burnt, eye color, dragon dreams, hair color, apparent resistance to illness (including grey scale), etc., each of these individually can be explained away as being something that could happen to a non-Targ. That is was makes them clues and not absolute proof. The issue is why would GRRM drop in so many different clues that are suggestive of being a Targ if they are just complete coincidences. Are these "clues" unintentional? Were they put in for completely different reasons and people (like me) are just making too much of them (I suspect this is your position)? But they are all there and even if not one alone is overly suggestive of Targ father, taken together they make one think hard.

But the biggest reason I have become close to convinced (not 100% but leaning heavily) that Tyrion is a Targ bastard is simply the process of elimination. I believe that the dragon must have three heads--so we need three people working together to win the Battle for the Dawn. I believe those three people must be main characters. I believe that the "dragon" in that three heads part of the prophesy refers to someone with dragon blood, which here means a Targ descendant. I also believe that the three heads must be main POV characters from the first book. I believe all of these things for independent reasons having nothing to do with believing that Tryion is a Targ bastard. So I have to start looking for the three Targs to be the three heads. One is in plain sight--Dany. One is only mildly hidden--Jon (once R+L=J becomes obvious). So then I need to look for a third head. Based on all of the criteria I have set up (again, things I became convinced of independent of anything having to do with Tyrion), Tyrion is really the only possible candidate, which means he could be a Targ bastard. Combine that logic with the independent evidence discussed above (and in the A+J=T thread), and the case becomes even stronger. Add to that the parallels among the three characters (as noted above, such as way their mothers died, status as outsiders, etc.), and the case becomes pretty solid.

Could GRRM be going another way? Sure. But I don't think another way explains all of these clues as well as A+J=T, and thus I am a believer.

As to your story arc argument (which seems to be what makes so many people so resistant to the theory), I completely disagree with your reading of the story arc. Yes, Tyrion is trying to win Tywin's love and respect and earn CR. It is called irony. He tries to get one thing when his destiny is completely different and much more important. His destiny is the be one of the three heads of the dragon--to save humanity and win the Battle for the Dawn. He will become instrumental in the big battle--the epic Song of Ice and Fire. That destiny is much more important that trying to win the love and respect of a man incapable of those feelings toward Tyrion (whether his bio-son or not) and trying to earn a title to which he is not really entitled and does not need or in the end will even want. To me, that is a much more interesting story arc than a story about a man who cannot love his own son because his son is a deformed dwarf and the dwarf who wanted nothing else. Tywin arguably owed these things to Tyrion because Tyrion was being raised as Tywin's son, but Tywin refused to give them anyway. Tywin also is dead, so there is no way to bring this relationship any further--it ended when Tyrion killed Tywin. So can Tyrion's story arc really be that tied to a relationship that ended so early in the series? Is it more interesting to leave the analysis at that level or to learn that something deeper is going on--that Tyrion is really the son of Aerys and destined to be one of the three saviors of the world--and was "looking for love in all the wrong places"?

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is counter productive to the theory of Tyrion as a Targaryen. The only thing in the novels that mentions coming from the Targ line says from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, not just Aerys.

Jon (and not Tyrion) I believe is the Prince that was Promised--which is what the woods witch prophesy concerning the Aerys/Rhaella line was about--not necessarily all 3 heads. The point is that the 3 heads are referred to as heads of the "dragon." The people who have been referred to as dragons throughout the series are people with significant Targ blood--and more particularly people who are either Targaryen or Targ bastard (such as Blackfyre). No one else has been referred to as a dragon and so the "dragon" that has three heads seems to be House Targ (look at their sigil--a three headed dragon--coincidence--I think not). So I think that to be a head of the dragon, the person's father needs to be a Targ. The person does not have to be the offspring of Aerys and Rhaella--although TPTWP will be a direct descendant of theirs (as Jon is--through his father Rhaegar).

[-Ghost-]

So burnt bacon means that Tyrion is a Targ? Because he likes burnt bacon? How many times did he request his food to be burnt or mention that he likes burnt food in the books?

He also likes lobster. You know who else liked lobster? Jeor Mormont. Maybe Tyrion is a Mormont.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So burnt bacon means that Tyrion is a Targ? Because he likes burnt bacon? How many times did he request his food to be burnt or mention that he likes burnt food in the books?

He also likes lobster. You know who else liked lobster? Jeor Mormont. Maybe Tyrion is a Mormont.

Boy are you missing the point. NO, him liking burnt bacon does not mean he is a Targ. You cannot pull out any one of the clues in isolation--and some of the clues are stronger than others. The point is that GRRM has put clues that suggest Tyrion might be a Targ. No one means he is a Targ and all together don't guarantee he is a Targ. The point is that as the evidence starts to accumulate, taken together AS A WHOLE, they suggest he might be a Targ. Picking on any one in isolation means you are not following the argument.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Let me take your points one at a time:

We have no evidence of the location of Aerys or Joanna during the relevant period of time of Tyrion's conception, so that does not argue for or against the theory. The point is that at least we don't have any information that makes it impossible for them to have been at the same place at that time.

I think that the WOIAF coming out later this year may answer whether there is a known Targ ancestor in the Lannister line, but given that both Tywin and Joanna are not from a far removed branch of the Lannister line but rather from the main branch (obviously for Tywin) or very near the main branch (for Joanna, as Tywin's first cousin), the chances of Targ influence is diminished with respect to any Targ influence from a male Targ (i.e., no known Targ bastards in that line--not that you are suggesting this--just eliminating the possibility) and as to a female Targ marrying into the Lannister line--we have a pretty good history of where Targ women have become part of other Houses (Martell, Plumm, Longwaters,Barratheon) and none of that information suggests a Lannister marriage. Given that we have been told of these other inter-marriages, I would have thought a marriage with a Lannister would have been revealed by now.

As far as some of the other clues such as liking bacon burnt, eye color, dragon dreams, hair color, apparent resistance to illness (including grey scale), etc., each of these individually can be explained away as being something that could happen to a non-Targ. That is was makes them clues and not absolute proof. The issue is why would GRRM drop in so many different clues that are suggestive of being a Targ if they are just complete coincidences. Are these "clues" unintentional? Were they put in for completely different reasons and people (like me) are just making too much of them (I suspect this is your position)? But they are all there and even if not one alone is overly suggestive of Targ father, taken together they make one think hard.

But the biggest reason I have become close to convinced (not 100% but leaning heavily) that Tyrion is a Targ bastard is simply the process of elimination. I believe that the dragon must have three heads--so we need three people working together to win the Battle for the Dawn. I believe those three people must be main characters. I believe that the "dragon" in that three heads part of the prophesy refers to someone with dragon blood, which here means a Targ descendant. I also believe that the three heads must be main POV characters from the first book. I believe all of these things for independent reasons having nothing to do with believing that Tryion is a Targ bastard. So I have to start looking for the three Targs to be the three heads. One is in plain sight--Dany. One is only mildly hidden--Jon (once R+L=J becomes obvious). So then I need to look for a third head. Based on all of the criteria I have set up (again, things I became convinced of independent of anything having to do with Tyrion), Tyrion is really the only possible candidate, which means he could be a Targ bastard. Combine that logic with the independent evidence discussed above (and in the A+J=T thread), and the case becomes even stronger. Add to that the parallels among the three characters (as noted above, such as way their mothers died, status as outsiders, etc.), and the case becomes pretty solid.

Could GRRM be going another way? Sure. But I don't think another way explains all of these clues as well as A+J=T, and thus I am a believer.

As to your story arc argument (which seems to be what makes so many people so resistant to the theory), I completely disagree with your reading of the story arc. Yes, Tyrion is trying to win Tywin's love and respect and earn CR. It is called irony. He tries to get one thing when his destiny is completely different and much more important. His destiny is the be one of the three heads of the dragon--to save humanity and win the Battle for the Dawn. He will become instrumental in the big battle--the epic Song of Ice and Fire. That destiny is much more important that trying to win the love and respect of a man incapable of those feelings toward Tyrion (whether his bio-son or not) and trying to earn a title to which he is not really entitled and does not need or in the end will even want. To me, that is a much more interesting story arc than a story about a man who cannot love his own son because his son is a deformed dwarf and the dwarf who wanted nothing else. Tywin arguably owed these things to Tyrion because Tyrion was being raised as Tywin's son, but Tywin refused to give them anyway. Tywin also is dead, so there is no way to bring this relationship any further--it ended when Tyrion killed Tywin. So can Tyrion's story arc really be that tied to a relationship that ended so early in the series? Is it more interesting to leave the analysis at that level or to learn that something deeper is going on--that Tyrion is really the son of Aerys and destined to be one of the three saviors of the world--and was "looking for love in all the wrong places"?

Is it fun being that wrong?

The evidence that Cersei and Jamie are Targ bastards is far more compelling, as we have first hand evidence that Aerys did something to her right before the bedding.

Also, we already have 3 dragons with Dany, Jon and (f)Aegon. Could be more too that we haven't heard of, though I doubt that.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Is it fun being that wrong?

The evidence that Cersei and Jamie are Targ bastards is far more compelling, as we have first hand evidence that Aerys did something to her right before the bedding.

Also, we already have 3 dragons with Dany, Jon and (f)Aegon. Could be more too that we haven't heard of, though I doubt that.

Wow, I think you have not read as carefully as you think. It is pretty clear that Aerys was a little too "handsy" at the bedding, but equally clear that he did not have sex with Joanna at that time--with everyone looking. The point of that scene is to establish his interest in her so that when his rape of her ending in the birth of Tyrion is revealed, we will have known that he was interested in her sexually. It is virtually impossible to believe that he had sex with her at the time of the bedding.

(f)Aegon is not one of the three dragons. He is not a POV character. He was introduced in the fifth book. He is not a Targ--he has Targ blood, but his father was not a Targ (he is not the son of Rhaegar--thus why he is (f)Aegon and not Aegon). His purpose seems pretty clearly to be an antagonist and not an ally to Dany--thus DoD 2.0. A good writer does not have two of the saviors to be introduced early at the beginning of the series and then the third introduced half way through the series. (f)Aegon is just not a credible candidate for the third head of the dragon.

I admit I might be wrong about A+J=T. But your evidence is not going to be why. Your evidence proves absolutely nothing.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Well it's too soon to say who or what (f)Aegon is.

Again, we don't know what happened. The explanation of the scene is incomplete.

Also, explain what physical traits he has in common with Aerys? They might kinda have a similar hair color, but that's a stretch. Otherwise, the two bare no other physical resemblance.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well it's too soon to say who or what (f)Aegon is.

Again, we don't know what happened. The explanation of the scene is incomplete.

Also, explain what physical traits he has in common with Aerys? They might kinda have a similar hair color, but that's a stretch. Otherwise, the two bare no other physical resemblance.

Does Tyrion have any similarities in look to Tywin? Tyrion has a genetic abnormality--he is a dwarf. He is unlikely to look much like anyone else who is not a dwarf. And his mother is a Lannister, so any Lannister looks could be attributed to her. And Jon does not look much like Rhaegar, but we are pretty sure he got his looks from his mother--Lyanna.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Tyrion has far more similarities in general with Tywin than with Aerys. There are simply far stronger arguments to be made for Jamie and Cersei rather than Tyrion.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Tyrion has far more similarities in general with Tywin than with Aerys. There are simply far stronger arguments to be made for Jamie and Cersei rather than Tyrion.

Just like Jon has similarities with Ned--because Ned raised Jon as his father--just like Tywin raised Tyrion as his father. While there are some arguments for J&C to be of Aerys, there is no point in the story for that to be the case (unless all 3 are really Aryes). There is an important reason for Tyrion to be of Aerys--to be one of the heads of the dragon and a dragon rider. There also are more clues for Tyrion, as outline in my prior posts above. The clues for J&C are much fewer.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Yeah? Go reread Cersei's chapters.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah? Go reread Cersei's chapters.

There are a lot of crazy people in Westeros--not just Cersei and Aerys--and Jaime is not crazy. But I admit that is a possible clue for Cersei being a Targ bastard--there just aren't enough other clues--not as many as with Tyrion--and not as much need in term of having the story work.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

What's that saying with Targs and their sanity? Flip a coin?

[UnmaskedLurker]

What's that saying with Targs and their sanity? Flip a coin?

Interesting theory, and maybe right. But here is why I don't think so--Jaime killed Aerys and Tyrion killed Tywin. It makes more sense that they each killed the other one's father rather than their own father.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Or their own fathers? Aerys as Jamie's father makes the murder all the more fucked up, especially considering he said bring him Tywin's head.

As to my previous point, Cersei just feels like the Mad King. There are a ton of similarities, physically and personality wise. Jamie, although not nearly as similar, has no similarities with Tywin. Literally none. He has the Lannister look, but as you stated earlier, the mother could be responsible for this.

Also, I just don't see a reasonable timeline for Aerys and Joanna to conceive Tyrion. But then again, who knows. There isn't a single piece of evidence that shows where Joanna was during Tywin's reign as HofK.

Edit: One more thing, Jamie's dream about Joanna. It can be interpreted a thousand ways, but I always got the impression that yes you are a knight and your sister is queen, but those weren't your real father's wishes.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Or their own fathers? Aerys as Jamie's father makes the murder all the more fucked up, especially considering he said bring him Tywin's head.

As to my previous point, Cersei just feels like the Mad King. There are a ton of similarities, physically and personality wise. Jamie, although not nearly as similar, has no similarities with Tywin. Literally none. He has the Lannister look, but as you stated earlier, the mother could be responsible for this.

Also, I just don't see a reasonable timeline for Aerys and Joanna to conceive Tyrion. But then again, who knows. There isn't a single piece of evidence that shows where Joanna was during Tywin's reign as HofK.

Edit: One more thing, Jamie's dream about Joanna. It can be interpreted a thousand ways, but I always got the impression that yes you are a knight and your sister is queen, but those weren't your real father's wishes.

Yes, there are conflicting clues to some extent. Perhaps that is what makes swapping theories on this board so interesting and fun.

[7th-key]

From the bath scene in Harrenhal , this is how Jaime recalls it:

"It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. Bring me your fathers head, if you are no traitor. Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant.
When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers.' "

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Evidence for Jaime and Cersei being Aerys' kids:

Incest (Targ practice)

Cersie is nuts (Targ madness)

Aerys interest in Joanna, as demonstrated by inappropriate comments and taking liberties during the bedding at Joanna and Tywin's wedding.

Evidence for Tyrion being Aerys' son:

different colored eyes (only other example in-universe is a Targ bastard)

likes his meat burned (as do dragons)

likes spicy food (if you equate spice with heat, Targs like the heat)

dragon dreams (only ever had by Targaryens, or Targ descendants)

Aerys interest in Joanna, etc

deformity (Targ babies have are the only ones in-universe born deformed)

Please note: "taking liberties" does not mean sleeping with. Aerys is specifically noted as having said it was a shame the "first night" tradition was outlawed. It was that tradition that would actually have allowed him to sleep with the bride. So, no, he didn't sleep with Joanna on her wedding night.

Here's an idea: Cersei and Tyrion are Aerys' kids; Jaime is Tywin's.

[Wmarshal]

different eye color isn't a Targ trait, you seem to forget Euron.

I like burnt bacon

So do Dornishmen, and me

He has no dragon dreams, just dreams with dragons

Makes no sense to this be it Joanna lived in CR

You seem to forget every dwarf we have met.