Finished AFFC Spoilers Aplenty

[JD44Irish]

So I just finished AFFC and there is so much to discuss. I know a lot of stuff is on this website and I'm free to explore it all now but I've got a few observations and tons of questions.

First, its hard keeping up with things when death is no longer permanent. Am I supposed to believe that Pate from the prologue died and was brought back for some purpose? Do we know who he gave the key to? If Samwell doesn't trust him, obviously we're not meant to either. But I just can't tell if he's undead or if he's been bewitched... or both.

Speaking of, did we see any other undead in this book? Was Biter undead in his fight with Brienne when he ate her face? He was described as pale, slimy and stinky. I couldn't recall if he died before or not so I certainly couldn't recall if he was an undead. Since Jamie described Brienne as second only to the Mountain in strength I would have expected her to handle Biter no problem. If he was undead that would account for a lot.

Lady Stoneheart - at least they explained this one. Beric Dondarrion gave his life for hers b/c Thoros wouldn't do it. She's awful cruel though, especially to Brienne.

Now, who is Cersei's New Champion that Qyburn was "working on." I assume its UnGregor as has been discussed on this board... but where does that information come from? Does Qyburn have the skills to bring Clegan back from the dead?

Speaking of Cersei... HA SUCK IT BITCH!!! I can't wait until the High Septon unravels the shitty tapestry she thinks she wove so beautifully. I'd love to know if Kettleblacks "confession" of sleeping w/ Maergery really sounded all that fake?

Cersei took the high septon for a fool and he played her like one.

And now for Jamie. The single best thing he ever did was crumple up her letter and throw it away. That was the first and only time I ever cheered for Jamie Lannister. Not even when he saved Brienne. He's starting to use his mind so I am hoping for some redemption. But he still has a lifetime of sins to atone for.

And whats the deal w/ Tanda Merryweather? Aside from being smoking hot. Does she really love Cersei or is she a treacherous traitor. It wouldn't surprise me if she had a role in Cersei's downfall.

The only real question for me is, was Margery the princess in Maggy's prophecy or was it Dany?

[Xray the Enforcer]

re: Pate

yes, there's a reason for it. Go back to the prologue and read again the description of the man who was talking to Pate. Does that guy sound familiar? (he should. you've met him before.) If you need further hints, let me know. If you want me to spell it out, I'm happy to do that, too. :)

[Mya Stone]

Speaking of, did we see any other undead in this book? Was Biter undead in his fight with Brienne when he ate her face? He was described as pale, slimy and stinky. I couldn't recall if he died before or not so I certainly couldn't recall if he was an undead. Since Jamie described Brienne as second only to the Mountain in strength I would have expected her to handle Biter no problem. If he was undead that would account for a lot.

Lady Stoneheart - at least they explained this one. Beric Dondarrion gave his life for hers b/c Thoros wouldn't do it. She's awful cruel though, especially to Brienne.

Now, who is Cersei's New Champion that Qyburn was "working on." I assume its UnGregor as has been discussed on this board... but where does that information come from? Does Qyburn have the skills to bring Clegan back from the dead?

Speaking of Cersei... HA SUCK IT BITCH!!! I can't wait until the High Septon unravels the shitty tapestry she thinks she wove so beautifully. I'd love to know if Kettleblacks "confession" of sleeping w/ Maergery really sounded all that fake?

Cersei took the high septon for a fool and he played her like one.

And now for Jamie. The single best thing he ever did was crumple up her letter and throw it away. That was the first and only time I ever cheered for Jamie Lannister. Not even when he saved Brienne. He's starting to use his mind so I am hoping for some redemption. But he still has a lifetime of sins to atone for.

And whats the deal w/ Tanda Merryweather? Aside from being smoking hot. Does she really love Cersei or is she a treacherous traitor. It wouldn't surprise me if she had a role in Cersei's downfall.

The only real question for me is, was Margery the princess in Maggy's prophecy or was it Dany?

X-Ray covered Pate's identity (in a round-about way haha), so I won't...however, to the rest of your questions:

I don't believe Biter is undead, I think he's just nasty. :P Unclean, sweaty, and most likely underfed.

Where UnGregor (or Gregorstein, if it please you) comes from? If you really read between Qyburn's lines, you'll see a pretty clear picture.

People have thought that perhaps Tanda is a Littlefinger or Varys agent. I'm thinking more Littlefinger, as he was involved in Joffrey's downfall.

As far as the queen from Cersei's prophecy, that's a good question. As far as I'm concerned, there are 3 possibilities: Margaery, Dany, or...Sansa.

AFFC was a book that was not super well-received here, but it's one that I think only gets better after rereading it. It's very dense, and there's a lot of description and characterization that you may gloss over to get to the more "meaty" parts of the plot...but when you reread it, you pick up many things that you may have missed the first time through. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[JD44Irish]

re: Pate

yes, there's a reason for it. Go back to the prologue and read again the description of the man who was talking to Pate. Does that guy sound familiar? (he should. you've met him before.) If you need further hints, let me know. If you want me to spell it out, I'm happy to do that, too. :)

The book is at home. I couldn't wait and google is a wonderful thing.

If it had said something about the gold tooth I would have remembered it was Jaquen. Hooked nose and dark curly hair just wasn't enough clues for me. Couldn't it also be Syrio Forrel then?

And then I would have to assume that he wants one of the Dragonglass Candles so that the Faceless Men can communicate with folks on Westeros. Probably books and lots of knowledge too... but the obsidian candles would be the real prize. The next question then is... whose hiring the Faceless Men?

[Mya Stone]

The book is at home. I couldn't wait and google is a wonderful thing.

If it had said something about the gold tooth I would have remembered it was Jaquen. Hooked nose and dark curly hair just wasn't enough clues for me. Couldn't it also be Syrio Forrel then?

And then I would have to assume that he wants one of the Dragonglass Candles so that the Faceless Men can communicate with folks on Westeros. Probably books and lots of knowledge too... but the obsidian candles would be the real prize. The next question then is... whose hiring the Faceless Men?

A better question would be "What do the Faceless Men want to accomplish from inside the Citadel?" I don't believe it's something as simple as them wanting candles. Also, remember that Jaqen was in the black cells in Kings Landing, most likely without contact from the FM temple. So what, exactly, is he doing? Is he rogue, or on a mission that the FM set up years in advance? Are they acting on their own or did someone hire them? (I think they're acting on their own, but have no idea why, and I have no other answers as to my other questions I posited.)

(And I don't subscribe to the Jaqen=Syrio theory.)

[JD44Irish]

First of all, I love the Dushku photo Mya. thanks for the feed back, its great to think some of these things out with others. All my friends are borrowing my copy and are therefore behind.

I don't believe Biter is undead, I think he's just nasty. :P Unclean, sweaty, and most likely underfed.

Clearly he was hungry! You are probably right. Who would have brought him back? Someone would have to either know blood magic or be able to give the kiss of life like Thoros or Beric.

Where UnGregor (or Gregorstein, if it please you) comes from? If you really read between Qyburn's lines, you'll see a pretty clear picture.

I went back, I forgot why he got kicked out of the Citadel so that helped. Vivisection is a scary thing... I tend to think its more likely Gregorstein than UnGregor... Qyburn said he had a new champion... not that he had brought Gregor back to serve as her champion.

Btw, did you often use the turn of phrase "if it please you" before reading these books? I have noticed that reading these has very slightly changed my usual choice of words and turns of phrase. Though no one says it sexier than Lady Tanda...

People have thought that perhaps Tanda is a Littlefinger or Varys agent. I'm thinking more Littlefinger, as he was involved in Joffrey's downfall.

I think that's probably the better money. LF went to HG on behalf of the Lions in ACOK/ASOS. And as you say, LF and QOT were involved in Jeff's death. In a very rough sense, Highgarden seems more likely to be involved w/ LF and Dorne w/ Varys and other Targ supporters. That seems to be a rough appearing alliance based on Doran's plans for Adriane to marry Viserys.

As far as the queen from Cersei's prophecy, that's a good question. As far as I'm concerned, there are 3 possibilities: Margaery, Dany, or...Sansa.

I've finally warmed up to Sansa so it'd be cool if it were her. I don't see how thats likely given the present situations... but she could be LF's instrument w/ Harry the Heir. Does that make Arya a candidate too?

Speaking of, so LF said 3 Queens... I assume Cersei, Margery and Sansa. This tells us that he had no clue of Doran's plans for Adriane to marry Viserys.... LF really seems to be limited to Westeros in his planning and that will likely be his downfall.

Great book and we haven't even gotten to the Sphinx Riddle, Brienne's last work and Cersei getting imprisoned.

[Suzaku]

I actually just wrapped this one up over the weekend in anticipation of Dance releasing this week (it hits my mailbox tomorrow! yay!). I false-started the series the first time I read it and barely got into the third book, so I went ahead and reread the whole thing. It appears to have worked out.

Re: Cersei's prophecy:

I tend to go with the mindset that whatever Cersei thinks it means is totally wrong. Not only does it let me cackle maniacally at her attempts to avert it, but it seems to be holding true thus far. I have thus drawn two conclusions:

1) The queen mentioned is Dany. Cersei is totally discounting her as a possibility, which I think gives a good deal of merit to Dany as the prophesied one. Though, it would make a whole lot of convenient sense for it to be Dany, which would, if one was staying true to the way the series has unraveled, mean it could not be Dany. Cersei's current predicament could lead to the outcome of it being Margaery, but could also end up with both of them out of the picture, so who knows? This is right up there with figuring out which drink has the iocaine powder.

2) Jaime will be the one to kill her. She is so bloody scared of Tyrion that she hasn't really grasped how much Jaime has changed, or noticed how he's reacting to her spurning him like she is. Now, this could be directly--as in, he could actually physically kill her--or indirectly, where some action or inaction on his part leads to her death. If he is indeed ignoring her letter, that could end up causing her death if it comes to combat. Though if Gregorstein comes into the picture she may be spared anyway. Given how slippery Cersei has proven in the past, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if she somehow weasels out of her current predicament.

I've been struck by how often the theory of "figure out what is likely to happen and then assume it doesn't" comes out ahead in the whole prediction thing with this series. Though, some things are so outlandish that I never would have seen them coming anyway. Like the Red Wedding. Too bad I had that spoiled for me.

[MessageForYouSir]

When LF speaks of three queens I believe he means Cersei, Margaery, and Dany. Dany's existence is becoming known to a more widespread audience because of the whispers of dragons. Throughout the book, we are consistently hearing of sailors tales of dragons in the East, and I believe that LF is just as ahead on this development as he tends to be on most.

[Joke]

I just finished AFFC for the first time, too. Debating whether or not to go pick up ADWD at lunch today.

Lady Stoneheart - at least they explained this one. Beric Dondarrion gave his life for hers b/c Thoros wouldn't do it. She's awful cruel though, especially to Brienne.

I don't have much to add, other than I hate zombie Catelyn. I wonder who's going to have to finish her off in the end. One of her kids?

Speaking of Cersei... HA SUCK IT BITCH!!! I can't wait until the High Septon unravels the shitty tapestry she thinks she wove so beautifully. I'd love to know if Kettleblacks "confession" of sleeping w/ Maergery really sounded all that fake?

Cersei took the high septon for a fool and he played her like one.

I kinda miss the Cersei from the first book -- I remember her as a jerk and kind of rash, but still with a reasonable level of Lannister cunning. Ever since then, her attempts at intrigue have been laughable (like when Tyrion had to stifle a laugh at her capturing Aliyaya instead of Shae). Her downfall would've been more enjoyable for me if she'd been more competent.

I also keep wondering exactly what unseen things the Kettleblacks have been doing, given that they're Littlefinger's men. I assume they've been feeding intel to LF, but I wonder if they've taken an active role in sabotage of Cersei. Perhaps not, given that LF was disappointed in how quickly Cersei is mucking things up, saying something about how he thought he'd have 4 or 5 years to get his plans together.

And whats the deal w/ Tanda Merryweather? Aside from being smoking hot. Does she really love Cersei or is she a treacherous traitor. It wouldn't surprise me if she had a role in Cersei's downfall.

I think she's treacherous, and was resisting bringing her son to King's Landing because she knew some bad stuff was going to go down for Cersei. She's another example of how terrible Cersei's judgment has been.

[The Scorpion of Dorne]

I just finished this yesterday as well. It was a great read, and while I know A Feast for Crows isn't as loved as the others, this was actually my second favorite book after A Storm of Swords.

One question I had regarding Jaime's story was

Was the singer he used on Edmure from the Red Wedding? I felt like I was missing something in that whole episode.

[Dornish Hen]

So I just finished AFFC and there is so much to discuss. I know a lot of stuff is on this website and I'm free to explore it all now but I've got a few observations and tons of questions.

First, its hard keeping up with things when death is no longer permanent. Am I supposed to believe that Pate from the prologue died and was brought back for some purpose? Do we know who he gave the key to? If Samwell doesn't trust him, obviously we're not meant to either. But I just can't tell if he's undead or if he's been bewitched... or both.

Speaking of, did we see any other undead in this book? Was Biter undead in his fight with Brienne when he ate her face? He was described as pale, slimy and stinky. I couldn't recall if he died before or not so I certainly couldn't recall if he was an undead. Since Jamie described Brienne as second only to the Mountain in strength I would have expected her to handle Biter no problem. If he was undead that would account for a lot.

Lady Stoneheart - at least they explained this one. Beric Dondarrion gave his life for hers b/c Thoros wouldn't do it. She's awful cruel though, especially to Brienne.

Now, who is Cersei's New Champion that Qyburn was "working on." I assume its UnGregor as has been discussed on this board... but where does that information come from? Does Qyburn have the skills to bring Clegan back from the dead?

Speaking of Cersei... HA SUCK IT BITCH!!! I can't wait until the High Septon unravels the shitty tapestry she thinks she wove so beautifully. I'd love to know if Kettleblacks "confession" of sleeping w/ Maergery really sounded all that fake?

Cersei took the high septon for a fool and he played her like one.

And now for Jamie. The single best thing he ever did was crumple up her letter and throw it away. That was the first and only time I ever cheered for Jamie Lannister. Not even when he saved Brienne. He's starting to use his mind so I am hoping for some redemption. But he still has a lifetime of sins to atone for.

And whats the deal w/ Tanda Merryweather? Aside from being smoking hot. Does she really love Cersei or is she a treacherous traitor. It wouldn't surprise me if she had a role in Cersei's downfall.

The only real question for me is, was Margery the princess in Maggy's prophecy or was it Dany?

[Dornish Hen]

Oh no! I am so sorry about copying everything and not replying! I was trying to figure out how to quote and I made a mess of it. Please accept my apologies.

[Reyne]

I just finished this yesterday as well. It was a great read, and while I know A Feast for Crows isn't as loved as the others, this was actually my second favorite book after A Storm of Swords.

One question I had regarding Jaime's story was

Was the singer he used on Edmure from the Red Wedding? I felt like I was missing something in that whole episode.

The singer he used on Edmure was Tom of Sevenstreams. Tom is secretly a member of the BWB (nobody in the Frey camp knows that, of course) - that's how they knew to catch Ryman Frey, for instance.

As for Tom and Edmure's backhistory, Tom also wrote a song about a floppy fish once, referring to Edmure, who apparently once wooed a girl, but was... too drunk to do anything with her. Edmure has hated singers ever since - especially Tom.

EDIT:Spoilerizing my post

[Fafhrd]

Lots of intrigue in this one!

Did anyone else notice the differing descriptions for Jeyne Westerling? Catelyn described her as having good birthing hips, while Jaimie's opinion was that she had narrow hips.

There were other differences as well, can't remember the exact words, but the fact that Martin made it a point to describe her so differently at all is telling IMO.

[Fafhrd]

Oops double post.

[Sundara Hai]

re: Pate

yes, there's a reason for it. Go back to the prologue and read again the description of the man who was talking to Pate. Does that guy sound familiar? (he should. you've met him before.) If you need further hints, let me know. If you want me to spell it out, I'm happy to do that, too. :)

Can you spell it out for me? I think I know what's going on, but I'd like to be sure.

Also Isn't it Taena? Tanda was Lolly's mother wasn't she?

I also noticed the difference in the way that Jaime described Jeyne and how Catelyn had initially described her.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Can you spell it out for me? I think I know what's going on, but I'd like to be sure.

Also Isn't it Taena? Tanda was Lolly's mother wasn't she?

I also noticed the difference in the way that Jaime described Jeyne and how Catelyn had initially described her.

Jaqen H'qar.

[Black Amethyst]

My thought on AFFC since I just finished it and am into ADWD now:

Despite the fact that Cersei screwed up on all her little machinations, I still found them highly entertaining. The Osney Kettleblack thing especially. She's paranoid and without anyone she can trust and she is starting to slip. She's not the nicest person, she's pretty bitchy, but her thoughts make me laugh more than what she actually says. I kinda do pity her sometimes, and to be honest, I don't like the Tyrells either. Do I think Margaery is innocent? Hell no!! She was definitely banging someone, it just couldn't be established exactly who. I was kinda getting the vibe that it was suggesting it might have even been her brother....Unless I am totally offbase and mis-reading it. What I hate about her is the way she treats Jaime. Have some compassion for your freaking brother, woman! She pushed him away with cruelty and that was her own fault.

I didn't even mind the Brienne stuff, thought sometimes it did feel like a bit of pointless wandering.There were some interesting points though, like the Sandor mystery and meeting up with Gendry. But I guess she is dead now. I actually felt a little more sorry for Pod!! LOL

I have to admit, I really kinda skimmed through the Iron Islands stuff and the kingsmoot. It was boring. Probably the most boring in the book in my opinion.

Poor Samwell. Not a happy time. But at least he got where he was going. I dunno if his friendship with Jon survived that though.

Not really sure what will happen with Jaime now that he is back out in the field. Trying to clean up some messes. No doubt he will be the one to find Brienne hanging from the tree...And hopefully kill Catelyn zombie. (again)

The Arys/Arianne thing was just stupid....Seriously, what the hell was he thinking? It seemed so pointless.

*runs screaming from Arya*

And I have a horrible feeling that Sansa is just going to end up getting raped. Her whole situation is just screaming DANGER. I hope this doesn't happen. Unfortunately she has several creepy men circling her and she is trapped in a snow-blocked valley. Not good. If only for this reason I am going to join the legion of Sandor/Sansa fans and pray that he finds a way in there and saves her! (because I think he really cares) And yes I think he's alive.

[lezboyd]

@ Black Amethyst: I don't think Brienne is dead (although, I have started on DwD and there is no Brinenne chapter in there :( ). Sandor is definitely dead. I don't think the Priest had anything to lie about when he told Brienne that Sandor is dead, and if he were alibe there is no way he would have parted with his helm (and his horse) without a fight.

@ all: I had really missed out on the whole Pate = Jaqen H'ghar thing, so thanks for pointing that out. It really puts an interesting spin on things.

It seems the entire purpose of AFFC was to lead into DWD and set up a conflict by various parties to get at Dany and her dragons. This better be handed properly or else I am gonna be very pissed off at GRRM!

[iheartseverus]

Sandor is definitely dead. I don't think the Priest had anything to lie about when he told Brienne that Sandor is dead, and if he were alibe there is no way he would have parted with his helm (and his horse) without a fight.

Hmmm, you're sure he's dead? Because what the Elder Brother said is that 'the Hound is dead,' and then 'Sandor is at peace.' Loads of room for interpretation, there.

:P