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[ADwD Spoilers] Reek throughout the book


mysh

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Agreed; I thought the Theon chapters were the strongest thread in the book.

Thirded, even if they were horrible. I don't think I'll be able to re-read them, either. Not even Ramsay Bolton deserves the Ramsay Bolton treatment. I feel even sorrier for Jeyne Poole, who didn't do anything to deserve any of it. The thing with the dog? *shudder* That was even harder to read than the first Reek chapter.

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I think that some bits of the Reek chapter that are really, really strong in the motivations score.

"I made myself the Prince of Winterfell, he thought, and from that came all of this. He had thought that men would sing of him for a hundred years and tell tales of his daring. But if anyone spoke of him now, it was of Theon Turncloak, and the tales they told were of his treachery."

Theon lived with people who were larger than life, who resonated in song and story. He lived as foster son/hostage to Ned Stark, and as brother to Robb Stark. And he was a shadow to them, a grinning shadow.

He tried to make his own story and it failed, it corrupted what it touched, and left him a corrupted shell.

So yes, I think some part of the Reek chapters are beautiful. But I also think some parts of them (like Jeynesex, ugh) are overdone.

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Theon lived with people who were larger than life, who resonated in song and story. He lived as foster son/hostage to Ned Stark, and as brother to Robb Stark. And he was a shadow to them, a grinning shadow.

He tried to make his own story and it failed, it corrupted what it touched, and left him a corrupted shell.

To me, the most important part of Theon's story was how it illustrates how terrified someone can become. It's Stockholm syndrome, writ on Theon's soul. I mean, Theon Greyjoy was filled to the brim with piss and vinegar, and he becomes a cringing, terrified slave who beds down with the dogs and is afraid to even think treason against his master. Now, Theon was never the most mentally fortified of protagonists, I admit it, but nonetheless the fact that I found his newfound cringing terror so believeable was the most awful part of all his chapters. Who among us can claim they'd be different?

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I think that some bits of the Reek chapter that are really, really strong in the motivations score.

"I made myself the Prince of Winterfell, he thought, and from that came all of this. He had thought that men would sing of him for a hundred years and tell tales of his daring. But if anyone spoke of him now, it was of Theon Turncloak, and the tales they told were of his treachery."

Theon lived with people who were larger than life, who resonated in song and story. He lived as foster son/hostage to Ned Stark, and as brother to Robb Stark. And he was a shadow to them, a grinning shadow.

He tried to make his own story and it failed, it corrupted what it touched, and left him a corrupted shell.

So yes, I think some part of the Reek chapters are beautiful. But I also think some parts of them (like Jeynesex, ugh) are overdone.

The Reek chapters were great...the first 2 or 3. But, it got OLD very quickly. The character was broken and it was interesting to see inside his head, but how many times did we need to be hit over the head with :

Ramsay is a monster

Theon is broken

Roose is marginally better than Ramsay

That's about all the point of all those chapters... Get rid of all but maybe the first 2 and the last one and have him reminisce about the rest or just leave all of it out of the story.

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The Reek chapters were great...the first 2 or 3. But, it got OLD very quickly. The character was broken and it was interesting to see inside his head, but how many times did we need to be hit over the head with :

Ramsay is a monster

Theon is broken

Roose is marginally better than Ramsay

That's about all the point of all those chapters... Get rid of all but maybe the first 2 and the last one and have him reminisce about the rest or just leave all of it out of the story.

But we're seeing all the events in the North through his eyes, how do you get rid of him and still show them?

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Yes, part of Theon's tale was to show how low he'd sunk - but part of it is also to see the actual North (or what's left of it). To show the Arya wedding and Bolton's plans and Winterfell again, to continue with Manderly's mummery and see how fractious the North is after the Red Wedding. That was pretty important, and Theon was very good at giving us these bits.

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But we're seeing all the events in the North through his eyes, how do you get rid of him and still show them?

What "events"? Ramsay goes to winterfell.....what else happened?

they took a tour of the crypts?!? They built new stables?!?! It snowed?!?!

Somehow, i think we could have skipped all those wonderful plot advancers, no?

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Except that things like the tour of the stables gave us some really important information about Brandon Stark, potentially Ned Stark's relationship to Brandon Stark, and potential implications for Ashara Dayne (discussed in the thread about Jon's parentage). And they can't just go straight from IMPORTANT STUFF to IMPORTANT STUFF, or we'd know that everything is important. It is kind of important to have filler to bury things in.

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I still don't understand why he didn't tell Mance and his spearwives that Arya was a fake. He seemed so reluctant to be part of that rescue, yet all he had to do was tell them she's not really Arya and they'd have called the whole thing off.

Probably not his motivation, but rescuing Jeyne was a good dead in itself.

Edit: Or

Mance: We didn't rescue her because Theon said she wasn't Arya

Jon: WTF? You took Theon's word for it? The guy who killed my brothers?

Mance: Errr....

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He's reluctant to be a part of that rescue because he's afraid. But at the same time, telling them she's not really Arya removes any chance that they will take him with them when they go. A lot of him is gone to Stockholm Syndrome, but not everything. He's been awakened by Bran's whisper in the weirwoods, part of him is hungering to leave Reek behind. He's not ready to leave, but at the same time, that doesn't mean he's ready to stay, either.

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He was reluctant to be part of the rescue - but he wasn't reluctant to rescue her. He wanted her to be free, as much as he wants himself to be free. He's a coward now, but that doesn't stop him from wanting others to be okay - especially those whose horrors he's witnessed first hand.

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Yes. It's mentioned several times that he cares about her pain, even though she wasn't Arya.

Theon advises her on what to do to avoid getting hurt:

(Jeyne) "I will be a better wife than the real Arya could have been, he'll see."

Talk like that will get you killed, or worse. Than lesson he had learned as Reek. "You are the real Arya, my lady..." Her name, she had to know her name. "Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to call you Arya Horseface"

He doesn't think he's able to be worthy of rescuing her, it doesn't mean he doesn't want to.

Theon wrenched his arm away from her. "I'm no...I'm no one's man." A man would help her. "Just...just be Arya, be his wife. Please him, or...just please him, and stop this talk about being someone else." Jeyne, her name is Jeyne, it rhymes with pain.

and later,

What had she been thinking, that he would whistle up a winged horse and fly her out of here, like some hero in the stories she and Sansa used to love? He could not even help himself.

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Except that things like the tour of the stables gave us some really important information about Brandon Stark, potentially Ned Stark's relationship to Brandon Stark, and potential implications for Ashara Dayne (discussed in the thread about Jon's parentage). And they can't just go straight from IMPORTANT STUFF to IMPORTANT STUFF, or we'd know that everything is important. It is kind of important to have filler to bury things in.

The little hints were fine, but having WHOLE chapters that do not advance the plot at all, but are there just so a random noble can spill a small hint about something in the future is a waste of the readers time.

There was practically NO important stuff in the entire reek setup until the very end.

By contrast, the Davos/Maderly plot was great. Some hints of what was going to happen and then, poof the freys disappeared and there is a lovely long pork pie to eat. Simple, to the point, and very satisfying. You learn about some history and advance the plot a bit.

Compared to barrowtown lady (don't recall her name) suddenly being important and needing theon to give her a tour of the crypts so she can unload her soul to him?!? Very poorly done and a waste of space.

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Poor Theon. He's definitely drawn one of the shittiest straws in the books. Sad as hell. And d'oh! I did notice something was off in the Jeyne sex scene, but my dumb head didn't put it together. Gelding totally makes sense now.

Really enjoyed his interactions with poor Jeyne Poole. One broken bird trying to fix another. I mean, I've always been fond of the tool, but I can't imagine anyone still hating him after this. All that he ever did to others, he's paid back a thousandfold with his own body :( Of all people, I wonder if there's a happy ending in store for him, or if he'll ever become capable of enjoying one. He's pretty much dead as it is... and yet, I don't want him to get hurt any further :( Poor guy. Probably the highlight of my reading, anyway.

Ramsay is a sick puppy and needs to be put down. Eurgh.

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"The dog..." :shudder:. I'd managed to forget that line.

I agree that Theons were some of the strongest chapters anywhere in the series (come to think of it, Theons COK chapters are fantastic as well.) Could have read another half dozen of them, and screw the plot.

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