Slick Mongoose Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Massive spoilers follow....Did anyone else think that his betrayers had something of a point? First he orders a near-suicidal march to Hardhome (because the last ranging ended so well, right?), then he's asking the watch to interfere at Winterfell, which is very much against what the watch stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 He didn't ask the Watch to interfere, though. He purposefully said that only he would be going out with the wildlings, and noted that Ramsay was threatening to come to the Wall to deal with him, which would inevitably have forced the Watch into matters.By personally taking off, he was trying to minimize the Watch's role. Now, of course ... that'd be desertion, and they could see that Ramsay might choose to consider them all oathbreakers by countenancing their lord commander marching south. So, Jon's solution was not perfect, but it was the best out of a bad set of choices available to him, I think. He didn't have Theon and "Arya", so Ramsay was coming up for him and the Watch regardless of what he chose to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Bowen Marsh is jus' plain racist.I just really want to know how quickly Jon is brought back to life. Does UnJon get to behead his murderers, lol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 I should clarify that i'm not saying they did the right thing, just that they may have had a point with regards to one or two of Jon's decisions.He didn't ask the Watch to interfere, though. He purposefully said that only he would be going out with the wildlingsReally? That's not how I read it, I didn't see anything about it being only wildlings, although I probably missed something.....And is there any argument against it being suicidal?and noted that Ramsay was threatening to come to the Wall to deal with him, which would inadvertently have forced the Watch into matters.Not sure this excuses it, if Ramsay comes north then you deal can with that then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zezibesh Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Want to hear my opinion? Martin wrote it pretty clear IMO.He turned out to be Azor Ahai. This was extremely heavily foreshadowed with Melisandre praying to R'hllor to see his king, Azor Ahai, in the flames. Instead she saw Jon surrounded by skulls and thought it was a warning. What she never realized, that R'hllor was showing the true "savior" all along. Azor Ahai was said to be born amongst salt and smoke. Jon's wounds looked like they were smoking, and Bowen Marsh was crying while he stabbed him. Tears of salt etc.We have precedent of wargs surviving in other hosts. Orell was likely not warging his eagle when he died, but nevertheless a part of his consciousness survived. Varamyr tried to get his mind into the One-Eyed wolf, and apparently partly succeeded, according to the Bran chapter where he, while warged into Summer, takes his pack for his own. Jon's last word was Ghost. I suspect he somehow managed to save his mind in his wolf, although it is locked away. What happens from now on, however, is unclear. Melisandre most likely knows the Kiss of Life and could revive Jon. Jon could live inside Ghost and possible escape, or maybe warg another body. This is for others to debate though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Well Jon pulled a Caesar (btw: I checked Plutarch's live of Caesar on this and the scene with the first dagger is very similar), i.e. he changed too much and made to much enemies (after sending all his friend like Pyp, Grenn etc. away and kept his wolf shut - mistakes galore!).I think he will be Ghost now (as the first words of the Jon chapters in ADWD are "The white wolf", not to forget the prologue with all its musings about wolf-warging) and then Mel will see how she prepare his return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generic Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Want to hear my opinion? Martin wrote it pretty clear IMO.He turned out to be Azor Ahai. This was extremely heavily foreshadowed with Melisandre praying to R'hllor to see his king, Azor Ahai, in the flames. Instead she saw Jon surrounded by skulls and thought it was a warning. What she never realized, that R'hllor was showing the true "savior" all along. Azor Ahai was said to be born amongst salt and smoke. Jon's wounds looked like they were smoking, and Bowen Marsh was crying while he stabbed him. Tears of salt etc.We have precedent of wargs surviving in other hosts. Orell was likely not warging his eagle when he died, but nevertheless a part of his consciousness survived. Varamyr tried to get his mind into the One-Eyed wolf, and apparently partly succeeded, according to the Bran chapter where he, while warged into Summer, takes his pack for his own. Jon's last word was Ghost. I suspect he somehow managed to save his mind in his wolf, although it is locked away. What happens from now on, however, is unclear. Melisandre most likely knows the Kiss of Life and could revive Jon. Jon could live inside Ghost and possible escape, or maybe warg another body. This is for others to debate though.The warging ability is bound to the body though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthanis Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Varamyr tried to get his mind into the One-Eyed wolf, and apparently partly succeeded, according to the Bran chapter where he, while warged into Summer, takes his pack for his own. Jon's last word was Ghost. I suspect he somehow managed to save his mind in his wolf, although it is locked away.What happens from now on, however, is unclear. Melisandre most likely knows the Kiss of Life and could revive Jon. Jon could live inside Ghost and possible escape, or maybe warg another body. This is for others to debate though. On the one hand in theory it is a logical theory, but on the other hand...I've started to imagine direwolf walking on two legs, wielding Sword of Heroes and leading humanity against The Others ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I just hope he is either revived by Mel or he somehow survives (or its the biggest curve ball ever and he really is dead-dead). I don't want to have to read a couple dozen chapters over the next 2 books where Jon's just hanging out in Ghost the entire time.I too picked up on the Salt/Tears thing. Also one could argue that his oath to the Night's Watch was really all that Jon had anymore, and he was sacrificing it when announcing that he would march on Ramsay; and Mel did say AA had to make a major sacrifice to forge Lightbringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeejee Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Bowen Marsh is jus' plain racist.I just really want to know how quickly Jon is brought back to life. Does UnJon get to behead his murderers, lol?Melisandre is pretty conspicuously absent in the scene immediately prior. I suspect she'll have something to do with saving his (possibly un?)life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Jon was trying to save the Watch. By going toward Ramsay, if he gets killed that's it, if he waited for Ramsay to come to the Wall then the Watch is going to have to fight and probably gets wiped out by Ramsay.He's going to come back some how though, either he doesn't die or there is some kind of magically revival. And if we go the revival route it paves the way for him to quit the watch without breaking his vows, because he would have died and his vows ends with death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maistjarnan Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I also don't think he's permanently dead. It's just a neat way to get him out of the Night's Watch, imo.What I found strange though was that "He never felt the fourth knife". How can we read about it if he doesn't feel it? Did he just assume that a fourth knife would come but it never came? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Mongoose Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 What I found strange though was that "He never felt the fourth knife". How can we read about it if he doesn't feel it? Did he just assume that a fourth knife would come but it never came?Presumably he saw it but didn't feel it, because he's losing consciousness.And he can't survive a knife through the belly, one through the back and another somewhere else. Revival is of course probable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zezibesh Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I too picked up on the Salt/Tears thing. Also one could argue that his oath to the Night's Watch was really all that Jon had anymore, and he was sacrificing it when announcing that he would march on Ramsay; and Mel did say AA had to make a major sacrifice to forge Lightbringer.Oh yes, I forgot to mention this one. His watch is over, he died. If he gets revived I think the loophole will still work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think the bodies kept under the Wall are another clue as to how his body could be preserved for some time while his mind is in Ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maistjarnan Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Presumably he saw it but didn't feel it, because he's losing consciousness.And he can't survive a knife through the belly, one through the back and another somewhere else. Revival is of course probable.But didn't he lie face down in the snow at that point already? Or am I misremembering? It's probably nothing really important, it just struck me as odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 But didn't he lie face down in the snow at that point already? Or am I misremembering? It's probably nothing really important, it just struck me as odd.My guess is "GRRM breaking POV for dramatic effect." ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Jon's dream, to add fuel to the fire:Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zezibesh Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Jon's dream, to add fuel to the fire:Yeah, it's pretty clear where GRRM is going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Rhaegar Targaryen Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think the bodies kept under the Wall are another clue as to how his body could be preserved for some time while his mind is in Ghost.Could one of those ice cells be the chink in the Wall where a certain blue flower grows? :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.